Tool Selection Advice

[bnew10]

Lots of great advice already given. I am a hobby guy. In the last few months I have build all new kitchen cabinets with bead board panel doors, a toy box/blanket chest for my grandson and I am just finishing a Walnut twin bed with drawers underneath.

My friends and family have been amazed at the high quality work I am now putting out. The tools made a huge difference. I got rid of my cheap table saw a couple of years ago and not I use the Festool track saw, a decent compound miter saw with a good blade for fine cutting of miters and a Bosch router in an Incra router table and fence and a Festool 1400 router a Kreg jig and a Domino.

If I had to "lighten the load" I could get by without the Domino and also have one less router but my day job has been good to me so I had the cash to get what I wanted. Oh and I did just pick up a 13 inch planer that makes working with the black walnut a real love affair.

I am now building heirloom furniture that my family really loves. I was not sure I could work at this level but the Festool tools gave me the ability to achieve square and very accurate cuts and that gave me more confidence. Once you master that the rest is easier. There is a wealth of good info on the interwebby thing and that youtube has some good stuff also to help you over the rough spots.

I spent way too much time "saving money" on tools. Sometimes I simply had no choice but now that I have the good stuff there is no going back.

Good luck on your projects.

Thank you kindly for the response!

My head is full of ideas and plans and while saving on some cheaper+more tools now, I have been wondering if nice+less may be a better idea? At least initially...

Did you design your kitchen cabinets yourself or find some plans you used? How much to plan did the build go? Is there anything you wish you realized prior to starting the cabinets, that you were forced to learned along the way?

 

[bnew10]

Hi Brent, welcome to the FOG.

There have been lots of great suggestions already and I would echo the comment that doing a kitchen is a BIG job. So with that said, a couple of thoughts/questions for you:

- Can you borrow some tools from some buddies or family? It's more likely that they will be non-Festool but perhaps you can try a few and see if they'll work for you. If you know someone who has Festool....even better.
- You've mentioned that you'll have a small shop: I'd suggest building some cabinets for the shop first or anywhere else in the house that won't have the pressure that comes along with getting a kitchen done quickly. When I started, I built cabinets for the shop/garage and made a bunch of mistakes and adjustments before it really counted. This allowed me to fine tune my work flow and process.

If you go Festool I think you could be realistically looking at a TS55 plus an extra track to do 8' cuts, MFT work table, OF 1400 Router, a CT Vacuum, Festool Sanders and a bunch of accessories. The Domino is life changing but probably overkill for a first-time project like this. The Kreg jig is great as well and Kreg also makes a jig to help you with install cabinet drawers.

Ultimately we all have our own preferences but I think you'll get some great info here on the FOG (yes, we are biased) but hopefully it will help you figure out what works best for you.

Thank you!

Yes, I have a few much smaller projects to start on well in advance of the kitchen job. I knew that that kind of job would require a bit of personal fine tuning, practice and overall familiarity with the tools in use. I have no intentions of rushing into this kind of job.

I certainly could borrow some tools, and I expect that along the way there will be some that I need. I was wanting to get a saw in the relative near future. Whether that be a table saw, miter or a track saw, is what I would like to figure out. It feels like there may not be a bad decision, rather one that may work better now as opposed to the others.

 

[bnew10]

1st- Welcome to the FOG!

I'm not sure if I'm reading too deep into your post, but I'm guessing you are budget conscious, or at least your budget is not unlimited.  Therefore, I'm keeping that in mind with my recommendations.

First, a little background:  I worked for a cabinet company for 11 years- I left there 20 years ago but I still dream of some of the equipment we had there, but obviously a different world of tools in a production environment.  I now build furniture as a part-time business, but I remember the cabinet construction methods quite well so I wanted to build all the cabinets for our new home we built 2 years ago, and did so in my old shop.  Here are the primary tools used with comments:

-TS55- used this to breakdown all the sheet goods.  First started with two rails connected, but even after carefully setting up with a straight edge, I would sometimes get out of square cuts within the 8' length, so I got the long rail- problem solved.  I was then able to get more precise cuts with the plywood using the track saw than if I would use the table saw.  Cross-cuts were done using the MFT- I went a long time thinking I didn't need an MFT, but worked wonderfully during my cabinet build.  I have used my TS55 for deck builds as well, although I hear the HK55 or HKC55 work much better for this application.

-Cabinet Saw- used to rip hardwood (red oak) for face frame stiles/rails, drawer fronts, etc.  Much easier to cut 1-1/2" stiles/rails on a table saw than anything else IMHO.  As mentioned in an earlier post- safety first!  Use push sticks or get a set of the GRR-RIPPERs.  The only hardwood I cut with the TS55 was the hardwood edge banding used on the cabinet shelves, but that was with the help of parallel guides- you can cut the edge banding on the table saw too.  With some extension tables, you can get by with a portable saw instead of cabinet saw- many on the FOG have had good luck with a Dewalt model.  Get a good dado blade and use the table saw for end panel dadoes.

- Kreg Jig- used this for assembly of all face frames.  Great jig- makes this task easy.  Tip:  this jig is a pain without dust collection- make sure to use the hood that comes with the jig and hook up to a vac.  Also, use a comfortable cordless drill- your wrist will thank you after all the pocket holes and screws.

- LR32 with OF 1010 router- makes shelf pins a breeze.  Yes, it seems expensive for what you get, but pin holes are spot-on accurate and, when you think of all the pin holes for adjustable shelving in a kitchen, 4 bathrooms, and a bar, I cannot imagine the time savings as well.

- CT Vac- an absolute must for me (I no longer sneeze constantly in the shop).  It's not only a health thing for me- not as much sawdust to clean up at the end of the day.

-Miter saw- even though the MFT is great for cross-cutting wider pieces such as end panels and shelves, a miter saw works best for face frame parts and the like.  I have the Kapex that I purchased a few years ago, but there are many other miter saws that are less expensive that can do this operation for cabinets, too, and get great results.  If you cannot spring for a miter saw, build a table saw sled.  It won't be quite as efficient, but will get the job done and safely.

-Sanders- sanding is my least favorite operation but I understand it is also one of the most important.  I used to use other brands of sanders, but once I purchased my first Festool sander, I switched everything over.  If you can only afford a couple sanders, the two I recommend for cabinets are ETS-150/3 and RS-2E, then buy the rest of the Festool line when you can afford them.  If you can spring for a third one, I'd recommend ETS-125 (or latest version) 5" model- much easier to use on face frames and smaller parts/edging.  And don't forget to use a Syslite to spot defects that need sanding.  Or, better yet, the new inspection light to be released in a month looks to be a great option too.

There are other power tools that will make life easier as well (domino, oscillating spindle sander, etc) but already have quite a list above.  Hand tools? Good square, accurate tape measure, sharp chisels, dead blow hammer are all must-haves- don't over-look them.  Best of luck with your purchases and upcoming builds- lots of fun ahead of you! 

Regards,
Gerald

I really appreciate your response and the advice.

You are correct in the budget. I am sure my wife would be upset if I attempted to spend several thousand dollars on tools. I just want to start small, fully aware there will be things I need along the way, but over time I can accumulate these additional tools. It is amazing how much all the "little" stuff can add up to, and then to add the "larger" stuff?! Do you recommend a good source for where you get tools?

I have also read very good things on the Festool sanders. I am really bummed I missed out on a $99 offer Festool ran I think last year (came across old postings about the sale while reading about them). Seemed like a steal.

 

[ScotF]

Lots of great advice so far. I have been using a track saw or other hand-held circulate saw for most cutting for the last 5 years or so. I have a large cabinet saw and I have not even turned it on in this time. I make furniture, cabinets and do other household projects and the track saw has worked very well for me. I started with the TS75 - great saw, lots of power and able to cut just about anything. However, I acquired a cordless TSC55 last year and I have been using that exclusively since - I find it has more power than the corded version of the 55 for some reason and I really like not having cords or hoses for dust collection for most things.

That is something to consider too - an extractor really takes the Festool tools to the next level with dust collection and I recommend getting one as soon as possible - but that adds to the cost initially. With the TSC I use the bag for most things and it works very well. Not as well as with an extractor, but pretty darn good. So, if budget is an issue and you can only get one tool to start, I would consider this as an option. You also will likely want to get a couple of sizes of rails to allow for longer rips and so you need to factor that into the purchase. Quick clamps for the guide rail are handy too.

I personally love the MFT/3 and think this is my most used Festool. It works really well with the track saw and helps negate the need for many miter cuts. It serves as a cut table, assembly table, finish table, etc... and is worth the money in my opinion. So, if you can swing buying one, I recommend it.

You can do lots of work with a track saw. Cutting narrow pieces has not been that big of a deal for me - there are lots of ways to accomplish this, especially if you are using an MFT/3. Yes, it might take some more thinking and it might take longer, but if this is for hobby purposes it might not be that big of a deal. Only you can decide. If a large stationary machine is in the plans, I would recommend a large bandsaw instead - more versatile machine for furniture making in my opinion and a well tuned saw can rip narrow boards with ease. It compliments a track saw nicely and has little overlap.

As you progress down the path and add tools, the sanders, Domino, router and drills all have some unique features and functionality worth considering. It is a slippery slope, but one most of us enjoy going down.

Keep asking questions.

Oh, and welcome to the FOG.

 

[Cheese]

If a large stationary machine is in the plans, I would recommend a large bandsaw instead - more versatile machine for furniture making in my opinion and a well tuned saw can rip narrow boards with ease. It compliments a track saw nicely and has little overlap.

I agree, I worked with a table saw and band saw for years, but since purchasing the TS 55 several years ago, I now use the track saw and band saw while the table saw collects dust and is used for storage. I haven't turned it on for the last 6 months.

For summer projects, such as these cabinets, I use the TSC 55 with a dust bag outdoors just to enjoy our short summers.

 

[Birdhunter]

You are getting lots of advice and as expected, conflicting in parts. Building cabinets can be a tad bewildering the first time. The suggestion that you build some cabinets for your shop is a very good one. Building cabinets with doors and drawers the first time is a good learning experience. You could do that trying working with the TS55, Domino 500, a good drill, a really good square, and a shop vac. Cheap shop vacs have a loud shrill sound and don't collect the fine dust that harms lungs and eyes. Buy several pairs of safety glasses and USE them all the time. If you find the TS55 system falls short, you can add the table saw. I have the Kapex miter saw. It's a big time saver in that I don't have to tear down my track saw set up to trim a board. The Kapex is the only miter saw I've been able to use indoors. The others I've owned put massive dust clouds into the air. Bessey parallel clamps will find a way into your shop. I have a wall full of them collected over 35 years of woodworking. I sometimes use pocket screws, but I find tightening the screws often pulls the pieces out of alignment. Dominos or Dominos with pocket screws work better.i have a pair of MFTs hooked together. I had to add an extension to mount a big woodworking vise. I absolutely need a big solid vise. The MFTs are shaky even with the leg braces. My extension cured the shaky problem!

 

[kevinculle]

I built all new cabinets for my kitchen a few years back...19 face framed boxes, 21 paneled doors, 14 drawers, 10 pullout shelves, 16 fixed shelves and 8 paneled end and back dress panels.  You have gotten a lot of tool advice so I thought I'd weigh in on logistics.  My shop is about 700 square feet and the 1st reality to contend with was that there was not nearly enough space to do the build all at once.  So I first tackled all of the 12" deep cabinets (10 of the 19 boxes) and installed them before starting the build on the 24" deep cabinets.  As you prepare for this you will need to think through the workflow in your shop and particularly provide space to manage the materials and subassemblies in process.  This will help to avoid or minimize the need to be constantly shuffling things around just to get at your next task.

For the carcasses of my cabinets and all sheet goods parts I used a very high quality prefinished plywood and I used 1/2" material for the 12" carcasses and 3/4" for the 24" carcasses.  Using prefinished sheet material requires a bit more care to avoid surface damage when machining but the payback in not having to finish all of those parts was well worth it.  Also, since those surfaces end up only showing inside the cabinets as all of the exterior sides and backs are covered by dress panels, it is less critical than you might think.  A quick coat of paste wax after assembly left everything looking very good.

That leaves the parts you do need to finish, face frames, doors, drawer fronts, etc. and this also presents process flow and logistical challenges.  I used wipe-on polyurethane for all of my finishing and got very nice results.  The key is surface preparation, thin coats (5 to 6 coats in general), very light hand sanding between coats, and adequate drying time.  I also do quite a bit of finishing prior to assembly.  For a paneled door or dress panel I finish the panel and the inside edges of the frame where the panel slot is prior to assembling the door or panel.  That way there will be no unfinished panel edges showing in winter due to seasonal shrinkage and no risk of gluing the panel into the slot with finish risking panel cracking.  It is also worth thinking through the logistics of managing parts as you finish them.  Building simple racks, etc. to allow you to manage the parts through the finishing process is time well spent!

 

[Cheese]

Another thought to prevent a project like this from becoming too overwhelming, is to consider having the drawers manufactured by someone who does it for a living. I've made dovetailed drawers before but quickly realized that while 2 or 3 are sustainable, large quantities are just not worth the effort.

I found a local manufacturer (Fleetwoods), that will provide dovetailed drawers from 5/8" maple with 1/4" birch ply bottoms, that have been relieved for Blumotion slides and the 4 holes that hold the drawer slide latches have also been drilled at I believe 15º.

A 7" tall, 21" deep X 28" wide drawer costs $54. That's fully glued & assembled, sanded inside and out...I'd have a hard time purchasing just the materials for that price.
A 5" x 21" x 28" drawer costs $52 and lead time is just 7 days.  [cool]

 

[Klemm]

[member=65881]bnew10[/member] - smart to ask first - and welcome to the FOG, the other great Festool Tool [smile]
The advice to buy the drawers is right on target and highly recommended. Buy one and you'll see! There are also plenty of companies specializing in making cabinet doors and drawer fronts.

Sheetgoods, which is what kitchen cabinets are made of, require handling lots of 4x8 sheet handling. Track saws are unbeatable for that.
I would consider European 32mm style frameless cabinets to eliminate the face frame construction.

"If the workpiece is large - take the tool (track saw) to the workpiece-
if the workpiece is small take it to the tool (tablesaw)"  author unkinown

I will never miss my 3hp 52-inch tablesaw and the struggles I had manipulating sheets on that. Somewhere  in the future I might see a $ 500 DeWalt portable saw for occasional small parts.

Precision layout tools a must - buy once.

Hans

 

[Jozsef Kozma]

The task you have on front of you
can be done with with a tracksaw
a drill and a Kreg Jig and a square
The Makita tracksaw ( I don't like
to advertise any brand on this forum  )
will give you professional results
You have to hone your skills
Woodworkingskills
Festool makes it faster ? more efficient !
better quality ? cleaner !!
Those are the decisions you have to make
Your skill and knowledge will be reflected in
the outcome
Don't hesitate to ask the forum before
you start your projects
Jozsef

 

[amt]

To see what's involved in making kitchen cabinets with mostly Festool products, see this series, stating with with part 1:

 

[jeh]

- LR32 with OF 1010 router- makes shelf pins a breeze.  Yes, it seems expensive for what you get, but pin holes are spot-on accurate and, when you think of all the pin holes for adjustable shelving in a kitchen, 4 bathrooms, and a bar, I cannot imagine the time savings as well.

Don't limit yourself to an all Festool solution. It's a ridiculous proposition and shoehorns you into settling for what they sell. Festool makes some great products, but the LR32/OF1010 one is not one of them. Yes, it does work, but the setup is ripe for error unless you are a regular user of it and even then a mixup can happen. The price and being "part of the system" are the hooks that draw everyone in.

 

[gsdvorak]

- LR32 with OF 1010 router- makes shelf pins a breeze.  Yes, it seems expensive for what you get, but pin holes are spot-on accurate and, when you think of all the pin holes for adjustable shelving in a kitchen, 4 bathrooms, and a bar, I cannot imagine the time savings as well.

Don't limit yourself to an all Festool solution. It's a ridiculous proposition and shoehorns you into settling for what they sell. Festool makes some great products, but the LR32/OF1010 one is not one of them. Yes, it does work, but the setup is ripe for error unless you are a regular user of it and even then a mixup can happen. The price and being "part of the system" are the hooks that draw everyone in.

Honestly, never had a problem with LR32/OF1010 system, and IMHO is a great product.  What is it that you use?  I'm always up for finding a better 'mousetrap'- especially when I have several closet shelving units coming up.

Regards,
Gerald

 

[bnew10]

I just want to extend my appreciation for all of the advice and the time taken to help to steer me in the right direction. I was not sure what to expect posting here, but I was certainly not expecting this level of help and discussion. Thank you.

I wanted to reply to each post, but as I am sure many of you know, life just got busy there for a moment. However, each post was informative and helpful.

I will be sure to continue to look to the FOG community for any future advice and guidance along the way.

Thank you all again!

Brent

 

[Cheese]

So...what have you decided?
Will it be a TS 55, HK 55 or a Makita. [big grin]

 

[bnew10]

So...what have you decided?
Will it be a TS 55, HK 55 or a Makita. [big grin]

Haha, well I have not full decided just yet. I would say it is certainly between the TS 55 and the Makita. My heart is pulling me in the direction of the TS 55 - especially after reading some of the posts, like Gerald's for example. However, my head is telling me the Makita. I mean, $250ish price difference is no small thing and from what I can gather, the only real difference in what the saws can do is the TS 55 has depth of cut control. Then again, the additional 2 year warranty with Festool certainly is something to take note of as well. I don't know, man, I just don't know.

 

[Klemm]

Brent look up Dan Pattison on YouTube. He's a pro woodworker in Nova Scotia and uses MAKITA as you'll see in the video where he demonstrated the GRS-16 Squares
GRS-16 Track Saw Guide Rail Square Review=1s

perhaps that will help you decide and get some other useful ideas from him. He's very thrifty!
Hans

 

[cpw]

I suggest you buy Bob Lang's the complete kitchen cabinet maker before any tools.  I built my kitchen cabinets over the last 9 months; and the $17 I bought on the book was the most important aspect and had the highest ROI of anything (TS75, CT26, MFT, RO125 + other tools, 300 bf of cherry and 35 sheets of plywood).
https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/1565238036/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1

You need to think about where you are going to store completed cabinets, etc.  You'll want everything done before you start any demo.

I have a 558 sq. ft. shop; but also used my two car garage for most of the build.  You need probably just 100 sq. ft for your plywood stacks. (2 stacks, so you can get at the type of sheet you need at the moment - each stack being 4 x 8, but with some room around them).  Then another place to cut them.  And a place for all your boxes.

The TS55 excels at sheet goods (I bought a 75, because I wanted the bigger depth of cut), along with with a CT26.  I was very happy with this, but have built a fair bit of cabinetry with just a regular circular saw and guide (but I had a contractor saw and miter saw).  The TS55 is much more accurate, and helps prevent mistakes from the saw slipping away from the guide.

I would not want to limit myself to just a track saw.  I would suggest at least a miter saw for crosscuts.  If you're building a deck, I think a TS55 is the wrong tool.  For the kitchen, if you're going to be building face frames or panel doors I think a small table saw will be easier to rip the narrow stock.

 

[socaljohn]

Hey Brent! You have some great option to mull over but let me point you to kevinculle's post and TSO's recommendation of Dan Pattison's YouTube videos first. You need to accurately consider the limits in your shop space, knowledge and budget.
I've enjoyed the lr 32 but Dan has a great video of a shop jig that is cheaper and more versatile. Most of my Festool stuff was stolen and I will replace most of it but not the lr32 or the REQ55. The Makita is more powerful, less money and does most certainly have the depth control you need. TRACK SAWS are AMAZING for cabinets.
Priorities:
1. Consider your shop space dimensions, power availability and limits on times available if shared or in residential area.
2. Consider your budget and prioritize your purchases with "Best bang for the buck" in mind.
3. Increase your knowledge!
4. Consider the styles of cabinets you will offer and how they are made. (This will direct your purchases)
Your first and best 2 purchases:
1. YouTube cabinet videos.
2. Sketchup    (Oh joy, they are both FREE!)
If you build your cabinets in Sketchup first, you will refine your styles and you process and avoid many mistakes. It will point out that many parts are repetitive and help you decide how to efficiently make them and lay them out on a 4x8 sheet.
A essential tool for this work with a Track Saw is your bench. You can make do with foam on the floor but that is inefficient and gets old fast. The MFT is incredible but does not breakdown a 4x8 sheet on it's own. A self built bench can give you greater flexibility and up your skills before the "Regular season" begins. (You know, the games that count)
My List of Tools to Buy or Build:
1. Skechup
2. Track Saw (Probably Makita)
3. Dust Extractor FESTOOL
4. MFT or Custom built MFT (Probably Custom Built if space allows)
5. Good Medium to Small Router (OF1400 or OF1010 or Makita or Dewalt)
6. Shelf pin hole jig: lr32 or self built.
7. Festool Sanders
8. Self made jigs & fixtures to hold parts on the bench.
9. Clamps
Good luck with your journey!

 

[socaljohn]

Oops, forgot the CSX! Love it! Make it 7 or 8 on the list.