TS 60 Fixed Cord

[Cheese]

I'd rather return the saw than risk losing the warranty with a modification, if the cord issue is indeed so critical to its use.

From my perspective, I'd go for the modification. My experience with Festool tools has been exemplary and out of the 40+ tools I own, I've only sent 2 back to Festool for repair.

3 years pass very quickly but if Festool suddenly announced a 5 year warranty, then that may give me a time to pause and think about making modifications.

 

[jeh]

Just received my TS 60.

I guess I should have visited this group prior to ordering it.
I was shocked to see a hard-wired cable.

I would never have purchased the saw if I had known that.

I'm not buying the amperage BS story, either.
They had better offered a retrofit that adapts the plug it connector down the road.

Don't over play the corded part. If the saw performs as you want it keep it. Probably cheaper to attach the cord directly add the plug-it adapter and include a cord with the plug-it end that definitely cost more than a hard-wired cord.

I have the 2200 and large sander and hard-wired never slowed me down.

 

[BruceC]

I just got off the phone with Eric at Festool Applications. He tells me that even though the website clearly shows the TS 60 with a plug-it cord, there are no plans to make it happen.

He also confirmed that the soon-to-be-released TSV 60 will not have a plug-it cord, even though all the website photos and email ads they send me show one.

He confirmed that the issue is a lack of power to the motor.

I asked why they show both saws with plug-it cords and mentioned that it sure appears like false advertising.
He was quick to point out a disclaimer on the website.

So, I guess Festool cares more about the legality of covering their ass than they do the morality of advertising an accurate product,

To me, this lack of a cord is a deal killer. And since they are doing it in Europe, I don't buy their BS of 220 vs. 110, it's all about current capacity, not voltage. If their plug-it connector is that crappy, they shouldn't be using them on any of their tools.

Your thoughts?

 

[mino]

I just got off the phone with Eric at Festool Applications. He tells me that even though the website clearly shows the TS 60 with a plug-it cord, there are no plans to make it happen.

He also confirmed that the soon-to-be-released TSV 60 will not have a plug-it cord, even though all the website photos and email ads they send me show one.

He confirmed that the issue is a lack of power to the motor.

I asked why they show both saws with plug-it cords and mentioned that it sure appears like false advertising.
He was quick to point out a disclaimer on the website.

So, I guess Festool cares more about the legality of covering their ass than they do the morality of advertising an accurate product,

To me, this lack of a cord is a deal killer. And since they are doing it in Europe, I don't buy their BS of 220 vs. 110, it's all about current capacity, not voltage. If their plug-it connector is that crappy, they shouldn't be using them on any of their tools.

Your thoughts?

Eh, you are really looking for malice when in reality it is just a lack fo awareness of specific workers.

FT is a global company based in Gemrnay. Everywhere - outside the US - these saws do come with a PlugIt so all "general" marketing photos that are made prior to US release and available to Festool USA would show the 230V versions with PlugIt.

What happened is the website folks simply "misses" that those saws will *not* include it in their 110V versions. That is very much unlike will almost all other Festool products that are not NAINA ...

Sucks for sure. But there is exactly zero malice in people making wrong assumptions.

 

[squall_line]

Most people's thoughts are in this 80+ post thread:
https://www.festoolownersgroup.com/festool-tools-accessories/north-american-ts60-doesn't-have-plugit/

 

[BruceC]

Mino.

How can you say it's a simple mistake?

They are still using the same photos TODAY, and the TS 60 was released a month ago. The TSV 60 hasn't been released and is a different photo. If they removed or changed photos, then they are forgiven.
The fact that they are STILL using the same bad photos show "MALICE"

 

[BruceC]

Hey  Mino,

It looks like you're not even in the US and yet you seems to think it's not a big deal.

Two thoughts:
1. IF you had to use this thing like we do you might think differently.
2. Personal; question: Is your last name Festool? How much do they pay you?

 

[glass1]

It’s about Americans. The brushless motor is more sensitive to perfect power. Americans are too lazy to fully twist the plug it. Festool is just avoiding the round of Americans whining about their burned out ts 60’s. 

 

[mino]

Well:

1) The is no "main" picture where the PlugIt version can be seen showing the plug. That is why the main "photos" selection is so limited on the US site .. go check the German site where PlugIt is shown prominently.

2) In the features section, there are still *general* promo photos which are pulled from a generic Festool CDN like:

Noticed that is not a FestoolUSA hosted CDN? They clearly do not yet have *any* product product photos of the US version and (are forced to) use the general/global ones from the original German photo shoots.

If anything, this shows FestoolUSA probably should invest in "local" US product shoots.

----------
Either way, there is no PlugIt in wording or in the product photos themselves. Not as of now at least. That is why the product photos are so sparse compared to any other Festool site.

The general "feature" photos are common of a class of products. That a specific SKU does not have some *not* advertised function is normal.

EDIT: tone down

 

[mino]

Hey  Mino,

It looks like you're not even in the US and yet you seems to think it's not a big deal.

Two thoughts:
1. IF you had to use this thing like we do you might think differently.
2. Personal; question: Is your last name Festool? How much do they pay you?

[member=76663]BruceC[/member]
Were my posts seen as "seem to think it is not a big deal" then it was possibly due to a too ambiguous wording.

The matter is purely technical as far as I am concerned. Brushless motors observe (well, more like "can consume") way higher peak currents at the outlet. That is where they get their torque and what makes them superior to brushed motors in corded tools. It also separates them from tools like the TS 75 in this context.

Knowing that and being a physicist by study, I propose that with the TS 60 the PlugIt is *not* limited by continuous current but by peaks which would be prone to arcing inside the connector. Every connector is both specced for continous and peak currents, and here the peaks would be the limiting factor.

To remediate such a problem, there are two options:

A) Limit the peak currents at the electornics, that would limit the available peak torque and "cap" the performance of the saw compared to what the motor can do unrestricted. Would also need special /read: more time needed to validate/ firmware for the US, delaying the US release. A year plus, possibly.
=> Hence the Sedge comment of time-to-market.

B) Remove the PlugIt (limitation), allowing for full performance.
=> Hence the Sedge comment of wanting to retain full performance.

The US being such a litiguous society, pushing the connectors beyond what Festool specs (internally) as safe was a no-go. Should even one saw burn out, they would lose a civil lawsuit in no time and be forced to a mass recall ... the public backlash possibly ending with Festool dropping PlugIt outright in the US. They are treading on thin ice as it is vis-a-vis the mains-powered devices regulations.

------------------------------
I absolutely love PlugIt.
Were I in US, I would go the CRG way BUT I am a technically qualified customer so if the connnector burnt out, I could handle that easily.

For official sales, though, there is just no way Festool could "have their cake and eat it".

The best option a fan customer could have hoped was two versions being released:
A neutered one with PlugIt (but then, why no get a TS 55 ?) and a "full  power" one without. And I guess 90% folks would go with the corded one ..

Still, if people *want* an official PlugIt model, do poke your Festool reps!

They may decide the investment is worth it and make such a neutered SKU specially for the US market. Just do realize such a version could easily warrant a $100 price increase ... depending on the sales projections.

EDIT:
DISCLOSURE: I have no relationship with Festool other than being a customer of theirs. I do happen to live in a country which has one of the TTS manufacturing facilities (the former Narex plant at Ceska Lipa) and happen to be using tools made at that plant even before TTS bought them in 1990s. So it is a bit of a "home" brand to me, if that matters to your politics.

But the special part, why I may seem -admittedly- "attached" to Festool by now is them retaining the "old" ways for "make it good and the customers will come" attitude. The same reason I have an immense respect for the likes of Maffel, Fein or Mirka. None of whose tools I own. I strongly believe that attitude approach being so rare these days it is worth defending. Evil to win, the good people need only stand by.

When people presume/smear -active- and conscious malice by default from either of such makers, dumping them along the Walmarts of this world, I will object. No matter the cause. There is a world of difference between a bad decision and a malicious one. And that is even assuming it was "bad" in the first place.

 

[peter halle]

I know that the lack of a fix-it cord is an issue for some. Festool also does make mistakes when they use stock images for the catalogs and other media when there are differences in tools caused by requirements of different geographical markets.  When you buy a tool you have that trial period which happens to be 30 days in North America.  If the tool isn't want you wanted as you stated - "I would never have purchased the saw if I had known that." - you had the opportunity.  Whether or not you believe Festool's stated reasons, your saw has a fixed cord.  If your posts are intended to shame Festool into doing something special for you - good luck.  Festool has proven over time to have a very thick skin.

SO, to all, let's keep this thread civil and cease attacks on members.  Trolling will not be tolerated

Oh, and before the question is asked, my name is Peter Halle.  I am a Moderator here and have been for more than 13 years, I do not work for Festool, and am not paid by Festool.

Peter Halle - Moderator

 

[peter halle]

Please note that two threads have now been combined.  That might cause some confusion in the posting sequence above this message.

Peter Halle - Moderator

 

[AstroKeith]

As a physicist, let me add some facts.

The 5m cable has a resistance of about 130 milliOhm.
A typical connector has a contact resistance of 20 milliOhm (each line), when new.
So the plug it will add at least 40 milliOhm to the 130, an increase of >30%.

Brushless motors with electronic speed control draw very high peak current in the form of pulses. These pulses are critical to driving the motor efficiently. A loss of current will at best lead to a loss of torque, but definitely a lot of heat as the motor runs outside its design boundaries. (ps: I also design telescope drive systems using digital motors, and these two factors are very evident).

The difference in running off 110V versus 230V is clearly a factor of two reduction in current. The voltage drop in a conductor is R*I^2 so the reducing the voltage by x2 increases the voltage drop by x4.

There are therefore at least two factors to be considered - the loss torque/power and the excess heat in the motor.

So, the supply voltage is key. It's not BS.

 

[glass1]

so how much does the resistance increase from the other end of the cord? you now the end that plugs into the dust collector?

 

[glass1]

carvex in usa is brushless and plug it

 

[squall_line]

carvex in usa is brushless and plug it

The rating on the TS60 is 13 Amps.

The Carvex uses a 400W motor, which draws 3.5 Amps, or barely more than 1/4 of what the TS60 draws.  It draws less than 1/5 of what the OF 2200 pulls. 

You're not likely to melt a Plug-it connector with a 3.5 Amp motor, even with the brushless "spikes"

 

[alltracman78]

I wonder why the HK85 doesn't have the plug it? It's only 8 amps (240 volts)?
And the 240 volt of2200? Should be about the same?

so how much does the resistance increase from the other end of the cord? you now the end that plugs into the dust collector?

That 20 mO was an average resistance. So would also apply to the other end. 40 mO total for the "wall" plug end.