woodferret
Member
I guess the Sipo connectors are also a decent halfway choice as they're mahogany with lower expansion ratio than the standard beech.
Unhappy Domino 500 Owner
- Thread starter Blackerty
- Start date
Hi S. I tried wetting some of the dominos/tenons I have and when pretty damp the 8mm goes from 0.3mm under to about 0.2mm over nominal. So it's at least possible in theory. It's another PIA workaround that would be picky to make controllable and shouldn't be necessary. I've seen reports of both 'too thick' and 'too thin' in my recent travels.
The problem in large part is the variability. I'm working from a €300 systainer of dominos bought in 2009 with the tool and had hoped that I'd be told that Festool in the interval had got the situation under control. That would have opened the way to going off to buy more. Seemingly not.
I have a machine tool background which includes a practical understanding of limits and fits. Ridges, corrugations and the somewhat elastic nature of wood mean that loose tenon fits would likely not need to be quite so precise as transition fits in metal (the surfaces contact each other, but not so hard that the fit can't be disassembled) - but I know from cutting mortise and tenon joints by hand and creeping up on fits that even 0.1mm makes quite a difference to the fit in hardwood.
Dominos from the above test can move heading towards 0.5mm in 8mm depending on moisture content - and that's before manufacturing tolerances and wood variability are factored in on top. That's absolutely not good enough given the stratospheric cost of the things and the claims for the tool.
Ta for the suggestion of DV connectors WF - I'll take a look. They no doubt cost an arm and a leg.
I'd heard a report that Lamello did a precision biscuit, but didn't know how reliable the information was..
Also a mention of a press or roller system that can be used to compress biscuits to size (might it work on dominos?) but couldn't find it anywhere.
The problem in large part is the variability. I'm working from a €300 systainer of dominos bought in 2009 with the tool and had hoped that I'd be told that Festool in the interval had got the situation under control. That would have opened the way to going off to buy more. Seemingly not.
I have a machine tool background which includes a practical understanding of limits and fits. Ridges, corrugations and the somewhat elastic nature of wood mean that loose tenon fits would likely not need to be quite so precise as transition fits in metal (the surfaces contact each other, but not so hard that the fit can't be disassembled) - but I know from cutting mortise and tenon joints by hand and creeping up on fits that even 0.1mm makes quite a difference to the fit in hardwood.
Dominos from the above test can move heading towards 0.5mm in 8mm depending on moisture content - and that's before manufacturing tolerances and wood variability are factored in on top. That's absolutely not good enough given the stratospheric cost of the things and the claims for the tool.
Ta for the suggestion of DV connectors WF - I'll take a look. They no doubt cost an arm and a leg.
I'd heard a report that Lamello did a precision biscuit, but didn't know how reliable the information was..
Also a mention of a press or roller system that can be used to compress biscuits to size (might it work on dominos?) but couldn't find it anywhere.
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There's nothing coming up on a search up for DV connector.
Do you mean the expanding metal variety that anchors in a domino slot that come up all over the place at over €600 for a set in a systainer?
They look to expand a lot and will likely tolerate crudely cut slots - but slot accuracy is not the problem. Fine if you own a bank and are going the IKEA/flatpack route but not suitable for many applications.
Do you mean the expanding metal variety that anchors in a domino slot that come up all over the place at over €600 for a set in a systainer?
They look to expand a lot and will likely tolerate crudely cut slots - but slot accuracy is not the problem. Fine if you own a bank and are going the IKEA/flatpack route but not suitable for many applications.
woodferret
Member
At this point I can tell nothing will meet your criteria. Grab a bar of ABS or delrin and make your own dominos, since you're confident you can hit the tolerance mark for pennies.
Please pardon me if I struck the wrong tone WF but I'm resisting moving to alternatives in the hope that a maker of accurate wood or equivalent material tenons (whether Festool or better still somebody else) will pop up.
I can make my own and will anyway do so for non standard situations - if the fence problem gets sorted out.
It'd however save a lot of hassle if ready mades in stock dimensions to a decent tolerance were available - but not at any price.
I can make my own and will anyway do so for non standard situations - if the fence problem gets sorted out.
It'd however save a lot of hassle if ready mades in stock dimensions to a decent tolerance were available - but not at any price.
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I'm not so sure Festool replaced the original fence because of 'drift' problems, I thought it was because they were not allowed to use the retractable pins that were present, so redesigned it??
The problem persists and is a real pain. My machine is only a few years old and suffered from it. I swapped the locking handles, but applying more pressure has never felt like a real, proper 'fix', though it has fixed it. The machine IS crudely built, when you compare it to its big brother, but for the most part works as intended.
I think there are a lot of things in play, when you seek help for a premium product - fanboys who will blame everything but the tool, and usually resort to calling 'user error', users whose tool doesn't suffer from the problem, therefor there can't be a problem and those that just don't see those tight tolerances.
Re. your tenons, do you mean you've had them since 2009 as well? If so, I'd disregard that as a problem and buy a small bag and test them.
The problem persists and is a real pain. My machine is only a few years old and suffered from it. I swapped the locking handles, but applying more pressure has never felt like a real, proper 'fix', though it has fixed it. The machine IS crudely built, when you compare it to its big brother, but for the most part works as intended.
I think there are a lot of things in play, when you seek help for a premium product - fanboys who will blame everything but the tool, and usually resort to calling 'user error', users whose tool doesn't suffer from the problem, therefor there can't be a problem and those that just don't see those tight tolerances.
Re. your tenons, do you mean you've had them since 2009 as well? If so, I'd disregard that as a problem and buy a small bag and test them.
Cheese
Member
Amen...
The problems with the early D 500 fence are well documented and coincide with what you've experienced. Consequently, there's a fix for that.
However, YOUR problems with the Dominos themselves are not consistent with what the majority of D 500 users experience. I've NEVER found a Domino to be undersized. Everyone has been slightly oversized and I needed to hammer them into place and also needed to use a pliers to extract them. Invest in some new Domino's to see if that mitigates at least one of your issues.
Ta guys. I hear you on the tenons Cheese. I'll dig up some to try and see what the story there is.
It's disappointing to hear that the fence on your much more recent tool is behaving much as mine Lincoln - did you think of asking Festool to rectify the problem/is there a reason why you did not? Our local service will hopefully deliver on mine but if not the next step is a detailed measurement and inspection session.
You're not too far off on the spectrum of responses that tend to arise to posts about problems - including the definite fraction of the owner base that's motivated to deny all possibility of problems.
My personal instinct is the opposite. I feel seriously ripped off having put out an awful lot of money for a cream puff tool and full set of accessories that while a good concept is far from premium in its build quality.
It's counter productive for woodworkers to deny issues in what they buy. German companies in particular somehow seem often to demonstrate a tendency to deny the existence of problems for as long as they can - but if the pressure becomes enough they sometimes find ways to fix stuff without admitting a defect.
It's disappointing to hear that the fence on your much more recent tool is behaving much as mine Lincoln - did you think of asking Festool to rectify the problem/is there a reason why you did not? Our local service will hopefully deliver on mine but if not the next step is a detailed measurement and inspection session.
You're not too far off on the spectrum of responses that tend to arise to posts about problems - including the definite fraction of the owner base that's motivated to deny all possibility of problems.
My personal instinct is the opposite. I feel seriously ripped off having put out an awful lot of money for a cream puff tool and full set of accessories that while a good concept is far from premium in its build quality.
It's counter productive for woodworkers to deny issues in what they buy. German companies in particular somehow seem often to demonstrate a tendency to deny the existence of problems for as long as they can - but if the pressure becomes enough they sometimes find ways to fix stuff without admitting a defect.
I can attest to Cheese' remarks that your experience with the loose tenons is an exception for reasons that might have more to do with your storage environment than the manufacturing side.
Of all the tenons I've bought and used over a decade (including the bulk packages ones -- to save money), every one of them was "too tight" even before glue was applied.
In most cases, I use a mallet to drive the dominoes home and require a locking plier to help me remove them. For dry fitting, I keep a bag of sanded down tenons of all sizes including the 4mm ones.
Assuming it's not your machine or cutter that causes oversized mortises, you should try a new batch of dominoes.
Of all the tenons I've bought and used over a decade (including the bulk packages ones -- to save money), every one of them was "too tight" even before glue was applied.
In most cases, I use a mallet to drive the dominoes home and require a locking plier to help me remove them. For dry fitting, I keep a bag of sanded down tenons of all sizes including the 4mm ones.
Assuming it's not your machine or cutter that causes oversized mortises, you should try a new batch of dominoes.
While there's some truth that some tool owners are blind loyalists, the way I see it is that people come to defend certain machine when a problem is reported by someone do it in good faith, strictly based on their own experience. Fanboys or not, they mean to help.
For example, a handful of people have had burned motor experience with their Kapex EB model. I work my EB to its limits (cutting boards after boards in a long session) without any smell or smoke)) . My local Festool dealer didn't have any usual repair requests with the EB either. REB now uses a new armature but that alone is not proof the EB has a motor issue (continued improvements happen all the time). So, in the absence of any reliable info or statistics on how many Kapex EB have been sold and how many of them had a motor failure, I can't join the crowd who says Festool is covering up something.
usernumber1
Member
- Joined
- Aug 7, 2018
- Messages
- 415
they are KV connectors sorry for the typo they are manufactured like the lamello not wood
www.festool.com
i see a lot of complaining and assessing forum responses. try a different machine, get help from someone in person. compare to a known good copy. try different domino connectors. maybe you have a manufacturing defect, maybe damage, maybe not
certain comments raise eyebrows for me. this example makes no sense that is not a proper understanding
"Getting back precisely to a lost horizontal fence height setting requires measurement with a height gauge or whatever - the scale is crude and useless."
i've never used my fence like that it's always as a reference against something
also pictures help.
there's a world of aftermarket accessories in every field. it's way too bold to assume they exist because of some underlying manufacturer omissions
Festool Corner connection KV-LR32 D8/50 online
www.festool.com
i see a lot of complaining and assessing forum responses. try a different machine, get help from someone in person. compare to a known good copy. try different domino connectors. maybe you have a manufacturing defect, maybe damage, maybe not
certain comments raise eyebrows for me. this example makes no sense that is not a proper understanding
"Getting back precisely to a lost horizontal fence height setting requires measurement with a height gauge or whatever - the scale is crude and useless."
i've never used my fence like that it's always as a reference against something
also pictures help.
there's a world of aftermarket accessories in every field. it's way too bold to assume they exist because of some underlying manufacturer omissions
Crazyraceguy
Member
- Joined
- Oct 16, 2015
- Messages
- 4,980
The "fan boy" thing is completely off base. There are plenty of threads where someone is complaining about the copy ring on OF1400, blade squareness on the Carvex, CT hose fitment, the stupid 7/16" socket, etc
Thing will get called out, but that does not also mean that there aren't a lot of us out here who use these products with great results. There are quite a few pros, who use them every single day, and I can tell you that things have to work for a pro......or they are gone. When you do this for a living, you don't have time to mess with things that don't do what you expect.
That said, I have owned 2 DF 500 over the years and the company where I work has one too. They have been flawless. The only issues I have ever had were of my own doing. (Mis-marking, cutting through the face, etc
Thing will get called out, but that does not also mean that there aren't a lot of us out here who use these products with great results. There are quite a few pros, who use them every single day, and I can tell you that things have to work for a pro......or they are gone. When you do this for a living, you don't have time to mess with things that don't do what you expect.
That said, I have owned 2 DF 500 over the years and the company where I work has one too. They have been flawless. The only issues I have ever had were of my own doing. (Mis-marking, cutting through the face, etc
Hi UN1, CRG. The tools you have encountered may well be fine but there's not much arguing with personal experience and/or the significant number of reports that the horizontal fence slips far too easily on at least some examples. Nobody is saying that all are affected - there wouldn't be much point asking Festool to fix a problem tool if that was the case.
The pic below shows an example of one of the slots where the trouble arose.
The fence slipped several times despite checking, cleaning and careful tightening of the levers - this unreliability together with the loose fitting tenons meant that the tool was set aside and plan B (plastic wrapped clamping battens) used to align the laminations instead.
The longer levers fitted afterwards reduced but didn't eliminate the risk of the fence slipping.
The fence height reset following the first slip was complicated by the fact that the original height setting was eyeballed. When the fence slipped it required trial and error cuts in test blocks and trial fits to get back to it. This was necessary because all slots had to be placed at exactly the same height/distance from the edges of the laminations so that they would end up accurately aligned in the same plane.
Once the fence height was again correct a height gauge which was to hand was used to measure its height above the base - this to make it possible to get back to the setting should as seemed likely the fence slip again.
The fence height could have been set before starting using the height gauge (and the height recorded) or a gauge block on a flat surface which would have avoided some of the hassle - but hindsight is great and the fence wasn't supposed to slip.
The vertical scale which purports to show the fence height setting is calibrated in full mm - it can certainly be used for crude adjustments but was of no use in the above...
The pic below shows an example of one of the slots where the trouble arose.
The fence slipped several times despite checking, cleaning and careful tightening of the levers - this unreliability together with the loose fitting tenons meant that the tool was set aside and plan B (plastic wrapped clamping battens) used to align the laminations instead.
The longer levers fitted afterwards reduced but didn't eliminate the risk of the fence slipping.
The fence height reset following the first slip was complicated by the fact that the original height setting was eyeballed. When the fence slipped it required trial and error cuts in test blocks and trial fits to get back to it. This was necessary because all slots had to be placed at exactly the same height/distance from the edges of the laminations so that they would end up accurately aligned in the same plane.
Once the fence height was again correct a height gauge which was to hand was used to measure its height above the base - this to make it possible to get back to the setting should as seemed likely the fence slip again.
The fence height could have been set before starting using the height gauge (and the height recorded) or a gauge block on a flat surface which would have avoided some of the hassle - but hindsight is great and the fence wasn't supposed to slip.
The vertical scale which purports to show the fence height setting is calibrated in full mm - it can certainly be used for crude adjustments but was of no use in the above...
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