Using an Oneida UDD on a CT26

[jnug]

So now that I am about to recieve my first Festool Dust Extractor, the Oneida UDD becomes a more relevant topic of interest for me. i see lots of posts from folks that have mounted it to the top of their Festy Extractor. But I have probably seen more actual Festy Extractors without it....maybe even a lot more.

So I guess now that Oneida has fixed the problem with the design, it boils down to using more bags and maybe more filters eventually or having most of the material find its way to the UDD atop the Extractor. I have to admit that I do hate buying consumables. Not sure I am going to ever push enough work through the Extractor to make the UDD pay for itself. If the trades off are different than I have described them then maybe it makes sense to spend the $250.00 to get a UDD. So is there something else that I am missing in the UDD decision?

Guys that have it would they have bought it all over again? Guys that don't.....do you feel like you are missing anything?

 

[Ed Bray]

I didn't buy any of my three cyclones just to save money on consumable bags. My reasoning is that if there is less dust going through to the extractor then there will also be less dust exhausted into my work environment. Couple that with the effect on the suction (no loss of suction as the drop box gets full) as when an extractor becomes more and more full, the drop off in suction becomes more and more apparent, and then you a) have less dust being collected and b) more work to do cleaning up at the end of the day. The other obvious advantage of saving further on-going expenses of consumable media is just an additional 'Brucie Bonus'.

Was I buying an Ultimate Dust Deputy again I would go for the full kit as shown in the Peter Parfitt Video: http://festoolownersgroup.com/other-tool-reviews/ultimate-dust-deputy-video

I bought mine as a stand alone Anti-Static item to use with my 50mm AS Festool Hose so I built a dropbox out of plywood and adapted it to fit on my CT26. With the benefit of hindsight I would not have bought the Festool 50mm Hose and paid the extra for the full kit with the Oneida plastic dropbox.

 

[jnug]

I agree with you there. If going to DD then optimally, get the whole kit. I guess I wonder why contractors who clearly use these extractors but can't cart around a DD use their tools all day long without issue (damage due to static discharge etc). Mine will be used around my shop, with my tools used here. So I don't have to worry about carting the thing around. But not only do they have to cart their CT's around but they clearly are not attaching something like a DD to them and are probably using their CT's more than any of us working from our basement or garage shops are going to use them. Yet we really don't see reports relating to static discharge damage. Obviously they are using more bags, ultimately more filters (ie consumables). At the margins the DD likely provides better dust performance as your bag is less often filled, causing temporary drops in performance. But a bag that you can empty would seem to cut into that issue and you don't have this big contraption stuck to the top of your CT. Even getting the thing up and down stairs would appear to be quite a bit more complicated with a DD involved.

I could well see a CT26 talking to a Midi in the Dust Extractor samples line at the retailer:
"I had such a bad dream last night Midi. Somebody grafted this big box with a cone thingy on the end of it onto my hose garage. It was awful Midi. I woke up darn near shaking the dust out of my bin!"

Obviously a poor stab at humor but the point being how are the contractors "getting along" without these things attached to their CT's? It does not compute.

 

[grbmds]

I don't use a the Dust Deputy, but I bought the CT48 and it is used exclusively in my workshop. I'm not a professional and, to some degree, that's why I don't find the bag fills up a lot. And that is the reason I don't miss not having it. In fact, I think the only reason to buy it is to avoid having to change filter bags. Since the CT's are HEPA anyway, there isn't really dust floating around regardless of Dust Deputy or not. The Festool vacs are the most effective collectors I've used. A cyclone's main job is to catch the bigger particles and chips to prevent them from getting to the filter, not to catch the really fine particles. As far as static with or without the DD . . . the Festool vacs have an antistatic hose and I have never gotten a shock from using it the whole time I've owned it. Actually I also have a non-anti static hose which I've gotten a shock from either.

If you only have the CT and that is what you use to collect, maybe the DD makes sense in that it's an effective way to collect sawdust without filling the filter bag. I also feel, though, if possible in a workshop, a larger dust collector should be used for tools like planers and jointers. The CT's just don't seem to be an effective way of dust collection for those tools.

 

[Ed Bray]

I think you are misunderstanding the static issue. There is no static issue when the CT Vacuums are used as purchased with an AS hose direct to the tool.

The static issues arise when inserting an additional item such as a cyclone in the vacuum air path, Oneida have circumvented this by making an Anti Static Cyclone, which, when attached into a vacuum path with AS hoses prevents static build up as the air travels along that path. This is different to other Cyclones which do not have AS prevention and thus can induce a build up of static which could then potentially damage systems in either the tool or the vacuum.

 

[elfick]

I have a UDD on a CT26. My thinking for getting the UDD was that the bag in the CT is your first stage filter so as the bag fills you loose filter surface area. I'm happy with it but I'm not sure I would get it again if I had a do over.

 

[peter halle]

When I was less mobile and was working in my rented shop space I used my dust deputy in combination with my CT-22.  I used in combination with non-antistatic hoses and the copper tape supplied with the unit failed quickly.  I never had an issue.  I found it most useful for cleaning up around the shop and also while using it for an operation such as routing or planing or even ripping where the amount of debris was greater - or seemed greater.

When the newer generation of CT-s came out and we started reading about issues with the static discharge and damage in some cases with the electronics and then the efforts by Oneida to improve the situation I basically stopped using mine.  On site it was a pain to use (I had the standard not Ultimate.)  One advantage was that if you were sucking up things that could puncture the standard paper bags they were captured in the bucket.

If I were in the same position today and had the newer CT models I would have a long life bag for the times of heavy chip and shaving creation and even cleanup and use the normal bags for sanding, cross-cutting, etc.

I finally replaced my HEPA filters after 5 years of mostly using the paper bags and have noticed an increase in suction, but while I was going thru my health adventure and being advised to file for permanent disability I ran out of bags, my last bag was ruined by wet sawdust from pressure treated lumber and I got thru that project by operating without a bag.  I blew the filters out with a leaf blower.  I would not recommend this approach for anyone, but in my time and place it made sense to me at the time.

I have a new life, new filters, and the upgraded bags for my CT-22.  My Dust Deputy is buried in the shop and I might pull it out in the future but I suspect that it will be rarely.

Peter

 

[jnug]

I get the static thing Ed but that is not the point. The older UDD had issues with static that arose from the original design I guess. That has been resolved now but it still does not make the case for having one on an Extractor at least from what I can see.

I have yet to see complaints from users without UDD's regarding reduced performance that is serial in nature and starts occurring at half full for example. Reduced performance if it is happening at all appears to be happening at the point when the bag approaches truly full. In addition I don't see complaints about excessive bag usage, excessive filter replacement...none of it. Heck I have not even seen somebody report that the UDD saved his paper bag because it stopped a nail from getting to the bag in the bin.

I also completely agree with the comments about a proper DC system for floor standing power tools. I have that and I have a separator for it. Both seem to make sense to me and the arguments for them appear obvious.

But within the realm of the extractor, it seems to me that a UDD even custom made for the top of a CT is not a slam dunk and appears a long way from a slam dunk. The bag that you can empty is not inexpensive either but it is still less money than a UDD, is something that is sitting in your bin not taking up the space atop your CT and if anything probably if used to its ultimate potential completely eliminates those temporary periods of reduced performance at the point when the bag is about to be filled. I can see somebody reluctant to toss away a one time use bag before it is full. But why would you not just empty the bag designed to be emptied and refilled again before you get to the point of reduced performance?

 

[grbmds]

Pricewise, the Ultimate DD is $245 and the long-life Festool bag is $205 (at least for the CT26, but probably more for bigger vacs). If I were to feel the need to do something to pro-long the life of my bags, I'd probably spend the extra money on the DD. This assumes you would keep it in a shop and not need it to be mobile to jobsites. The DD uses plastic bags which can be pulled out with a minimum of escaping dust whereas the long-life bag must be emptied each time. Emptying would produce a lot of dust in the air which you are trying to avoid.

I'd see how long the regular bag lasts for you with your use. Once you know that, you can make the lonter term calculation on the break-even point for either the DD or the long-life bags. For me, with a CT48, at $47 for 5 bags, I'd have to fill about 25 - 30 bags before I'd consider it worthwhile. That is a long time into the future for me.

Festool's dust extractors are made to filter out essentially all the finer dust via the HEPA filter. They do a great job at that. Dust that doesn't get sucked into the vac is, of course, another issue and there is some of that with any tool. I have ceiling mounted air cleaner to handle as much of that as possible. I just don't see the point of messing with the great dust extraction system Festool has produced, from a cost basis or from a dust collection basis.

 

[jnug]

I have seen vids of the bag being emptied and it is not a pretty sight. That said, in some instances we have grown used to working all day long in a mask or respirator. So wearing one for the length of time it would take me to empty a bag and for a few minutes after would not be a big deal to me. Plus the method used to empty in the vids is always just pull that long clip and let her rip. I would not empty that way and would not produce nearly as much dust into the air.

I think what sort of pushes me over the edge and away from the UDD is that even around your basement or garage shop or wherever, you want to be able to take your CT up and down stairs without turning it into a federal project and it appears to me that a federal project is what you have once you lose the top of the CT to the UDD and yes oh by the way, there are other things you might want to do with the top of the CT.

 

[Gary in Texas]

I have seen vids of the bag being emptied and it is not a pretty sight. That said, in some instances we have grown used to working all day long in a mask or respirator. So wearing one for the length of time it would take me to empty a bag and for a few minutes after would not be a big deal to me. Plus the method used to empty in the vids is always just pull that long clip and let her rip. I would not empty that way and would not produce nearly as much dust into the air.

I think what sort of pushes me over the edge and away from the UDD is that even around your basement or garage shop or wherever, you want to be able to take your CT up and down stairs without turning it into a federal project and it appears to me that a federal project is what you have once you lose the top of the CT to the UDD and yes oh by the way, there are other things you might want to do with the top of the CT.

Jnug, no federal project to dismount the UDD.  Release the two clips on the CT that hold the UDD (or systainers) attached, remove the hose, plug in your CT hose.  I can do it in less than 30 seconds.

I prefer the UDD and have used other types of cyclones on my pre-Festool stuff.  It is great for catching the majority of large and small chips/sawdust, and the finer dust.  I don't have to worry about what I'm collecting, like Peter mentioning above some treated lumber and moisture ruining his CT bag.  I checked my bag last week, it looked brand new.  The UDD is almost half full of mostly fine dust.  I can discard that in its plastic bag and keep using the cloth bag.  I think the cyclones do help extend the life (obviously for the bag) of the filters.

I guess ultimately it comes down to preference, and cost, and you have several options to choose from which isn't a bad thing!!!! 

Gary

 

[jnug]

Two clips to take it off. Take the CT up the flight of stairs. Come back downstairs for the UDD...take that up the flight of stairs...reverse process to go the other way......sounds like more to do than just a couple clips....No????? Whoops, one of the hoses fell off on the stairs....oh dear....maybe next time I should remove the hoses and make three trips, one for the CT, one for the UDD and one for the hoses and then do the whole thing in reverse going the other way.

It can't possibly be as maneuverable nor as easy to set it under something'....work surface....whatever. I don't like the idea of having an Extractor permanently positioned when it is mainly servicing handheld power tools either. I know some folks like to do that with these things but it does not suit my working style and I don't prefer it. I like to move it where I want it for a cut or a job, set the feet, then drop it back to its wheels and reposition it as I see fit for the next assignment. IMO even an overhead hose system is not as good as being able to move the Extractor to an optimal position for whatever task you are engaged in at that moment when it is servicing handheld power tools.

Then also losing the top surface of the machine is a whole nuther kettle of fish that I also don't find that appealing. One advantage you get from the UDD I think is that the position of the inlet port raises the hose up to a position similar to where it would be if you sprung for the boom arm. It is clearly not the same as the boom arm but it might do as a reasonable substitute.

I have two built in advantages in running a CT barefoot (no UDD). All the floor standing stuff is already attached to a DC system with separator for one and I can control my environment probably more than some can as far as what the CT might confront when working for me for another.

I will probably end up opting for the reusable bag if anything. Once you are no longer using one time or single use bags, any incentive one might have to just stuff that thing to the max goes away and thus so does much of the concern that you will have many instances of temporary performance reduction due to a full bag. The tendency with single use bags is to get the most you can out of them and that tends to mean filling them till the machine starts to complain. While you might immediately stop at that point you are probably already suffering some reduced performance by then. Not much though as in my experience for good machines this is not a serial equation. Performance should be quite good all the way up to the point where you are approaching full and then go downhill quickly as you get to full. The whole system suffers at the point of a crammed bag or bin.

I like this aspect of the multi-use bag even more than the savings on consumables. That could also be a matter of working style however. I already know that I would empty a multi-use bag well before it was full. Just the way I have grown used to doing things.

To reiterate, the backdrop for this whole discussion was trying to coax to the surface, issues confronted by contractors that use these machines far far more than any home hobbyist or one man shop is ever going to use them and they use them for the most part without UDD's as they are impractical as a carry it here and there sort of device. Yet we hear nary a concern voiced, a problem identified....no excessive filter usage, no excessive bag usage or machine damage that can be traced to the lack of a UDD and they can't hardly control their work environment at all. You have to envision nails, and other sharp metal objects all over their job sites in some cases. Surely that speaks well for the CT series itself....and the Midis and Minis as well. But that is sort of the point. We are paying premium money for a premium machine. Sort of stands to reason that it is built well enough not to need another $250.00 accessory that limits its mobility among other things. On the surface it would appear that it should be able to do the job it was designed to do without the assistance of a device that adds another 50% to the total cost.

But to each his own. I asked the question and posed the argument mainly to inform my own decisions. But we are all free to do as we please.

 

[peter halle]

As I mentioned, I still have the older CT-22.  Over the years I know I certainly had several bag punctures from nails.  I also had many instances of the bag coming loose and then finding out that I had caked my filters with sheetrock dust.  Certainly not the normal.  Festool developed a new line of bags that is non-paper to help out with the punctures.

The current models of the CT have self cleaning fleece type bags which delate and help keep the pores open.  They also have a much better bag attachment system to help prevent blow-offs.

The long life bags are not designed for dust, although many people use it for that.  The pores in the bag eventually will become clogged.  They are larger than the pores in the standard bags so that means that more extra fine dust has a way to get to your filter.  Some people wash their long life bags, some people slit their regular bags and reuse them.  But eventually the pores will get clogged and the performance will drop.

I admit it.  I am coming out of the closet and confessing to be compulsive bag-slitter.  I haven't tried it yet with my new style of bags but I am sure that I will.  Somehow I have learned how to take my bags out to the trash can, open the lid, after I determine which way the wind is blowing I hold my breath, dump the bag, close the lid, take ten steps and breathe.

Peter

 

[Jaybolishes]

Festool vacs on their own are wonderful vacs, you don't need a cyclone for the CT to be an incredible addition to your dust collecting and vacuuming needs. So it does do the job it's designed to do. Try to find a better vac, there's not much to choose from. 

If you sand drywall ever the UDD is a no brainier. It's also maneuverable on hard wood floors, I drag it by the hose all the time.  The UDD gets the hose higher of the ground giving you more hose to utilize when suspending from the ceiling and it will cause less Hang ups on the table edges when not suspending. You're talking about saving your vacs filter from fine dust, allowing your vac to perform with greater suction longer. Moving the vac up stairs with the UDD on it is no problem, I pick them both up and go up the stairs, boom.  But if one is a little weaker or maybe has a bad back, disconnecting the UDD and making two trips up a flight of stairs is not a huge event.  If you want your UDD upstairs, it would seem like you plan on doing quite a bit of work up there, so is disconnecting the vac from the UDD that big of a deal?  If it's a quick little vacuuming then leave the udd in the truck.  When lots of dust and debris are made its a wonderful thing to take 15 seconds to remove the trash bag from the UDD and throw in another $.25 trash bag.  But folks who don't use their vacs much clearly don't need the UDD.  I'm in the camp of folks who can't praise the UDD enough, not one bad thing to say.

Has anyone attached a UDD to a festool MiNi vac?

 

[Paul G]

If you sand drywall ever the UDD is a no brainier.

Yes, my DD works amazingly well capturing drywall sanding dust. Wouldn't want to be without it

 

[ajcoholic]

I have three vacs (2 X CT26, one CT48) and have the UDD on the two stationary vacs in my shop - which are usedprimarily at sanding stations.  I had the original ones (which I never had issue with, since I grounded the old cyclone and hose with copper foil tape and a jumper wire) and now I have the new replacements.

UDD just works great, and it is very easy to replace a plastic bag of fine dust every several weeks VS the bag in the unit.  Thye vac always pulls full strength - and I know from my 48' that as the bag gets full you do reduce the air flow.  I use the large vac for my other tools I run around the shop (1400 router, Lamello machines, Domino, etc) as well I use it to clean around the shop and on the job site.

I would certainly get the UDD again for my stationary vacs.  It is a little bulky to carry around, that is the only drawback I can see.

AJC

 

[jbasen]

Festool vacs on their own are wonderful vacs, you don't need a cyclone for the CT to be an incredible addition to your dust collecting and vacuuming needs. So it does do the job it's designed to do. Try to find a better vac, there's not much to choose from. 

If you sand drywall ever the UDD is a no brainier. It's also maneuverable on hard wood floors, I drag it by the hose all the time.  The UDD gets the hose higher of the ground giving you more hose to utilize when suspending from the ceiling and it will cause less Hang ups on the table edges when not suspending. You're talking about saving your vacs filter from fine dust, allowing your vac to perform with greater suction longer. Moving the vac up stairs with the UDD on it is no problem, I pick them both up and go up the stairs, boom.  But if one is a little weaker or maybe has a bad back, disconnecting the UDD and making two trips up a flight of stairs is not a huge event.  If you want your UDD upstairs, it would seem like you plan on doing quite a bit of work up there, so is disconnecting the vac from the UDD that big of a deal?  If it's a quick little vacuuming then leave the udd in the truck.  When lots of dust and debris are made its a wonderful thing to take 15 seconds to remove the trash bag from the UDD and throw in another $.25 trash bag.  But folks who don't use their vacs much clearly don't need the UDD.  I'm in the camp of folks who can't praise the UDD enough, not one bad thing to say.

Has anyone attached a UDD to a festool MiNi vac?

I have the UDD mounted on my ct mini and it works great.  I Am only a hobbyist but I have yet to have to replace the filter bag in my mini.  I Would definitely buy a UDD again.

My only wish for the UDD is that there was a window so you could see inside to know how full it is getting.  I've see that Oneida now  makes some sort of an electric eye contraption but it costs almost as much as the UDD

 

[jacko9]

Festool vacs on their own are wonderful vacs, you don't need a cyclone for the CT to be an incredible addition to your dust collecting and vacuuming needs. So it does do the job it's designed to do. Try to find a better vac, there's not much to choose from. 

If you sand drywall ever the UDD is a no brainier. It's also maneuverable on hard wood floors, I drag it by the hose all the time.  The UDD gets the hose higher of the ground giving you more hose to utilize when suspending from the ceiling and it will cause less Hang ups on the table edges when not suspending. You're talking about saving your vacs filter from fine dust, allowing your vac to perform with greater suction longer. Moving the vac up stairs with the UDD on it is no problem, I pick them both up and go up the stairs, boom.  But if one is a little weaker or maybe has a bad back, disconnecting the UDD and making two trips up a flight of stairs is not a huge event.  If you want your UDD upstairs, it would seem like you plan on doing quite a bit of work up there, so is disconnecting the vac from the UDD that big of a deal?  If it's a quick little vacuuming then leave the udd in the truck.  When lots of dust and debris are made its a wonderful thing to take 15 seconds to remove the trash bag from the UDD and throw in another $.25 trash bag.  But folks who don't use their vacs much clearly don't need the UDD.  I'm in the camp of folks who can't praise the UDD enough, not one bad thing to say.

Has anyone attached a UDD to a festool MiNi vac?

I have the UDD mounted on my ct mini and it works great.  I Am only a hobbyist but I have yet to have to replace the filter bag in my mini.  I Would definitely buy a UDD again.

My only wish for the UDD is that there was a window so you could see inside to know how full it is getting.  I've see that Oneida now  makes some sort of an electric eye contraption but it costs almost as much as the UDD

Oneida sells a proximity sensor that you can set the distance you want to detect and a strobe light to alert you when you reach that limit.  While I agree it costs a lot for the UDD, It works great on my Cyclone V-3000 system with a 35 gallon drum.

Jack

 

[weekendwarrior]

For the CT-Midi and CT-Mini, the UDD also provides a 50mm hose connector that you can use in more situations.  Can't plug a blast gate or the hose Y-adapter for the CMS into a basic Mini/Midi due to the hose cage; however, the UDD puts the vac port right up front where it should have been like the other CTs.

 

[Gary in Texas]

Two clips to take it off. Take the CT up the flight of stairs. Come back downstairs for the UDD...take that up the flight of stairs...reverse process to go the other way......sounds like more to do than just a couple clips....No????? Whoops, one of the hoses fell off on the stairs....oh dear....maybe next time I should remove the hoses and make three trips, one for the CT, one for the UDD and one for the hoses and then do the whole thing in reverse going the other way.

Jnug,
I guess I should have been to be more specific.....  You can "remove" the UDD from your CT and use your CT the same way as when you received it new.  The UDD is not a permanent attachment to the CT.  Take the UDD box off the CT by unlocking the two clips on the hose garage, unhook the hose from the front of the CT, plug your 26mm anti static hose into the front of the CT, done.  Take it wherever you please, no UDD attached. I was incorrect that it took 30 seconds to reconfigure my CT.  I just timed it, took me all of 11 seconds, could have shaved a few seconds if I was really, really trying....

Edit: I also have the handle and boom arm on my CT which makes it way less portable, so, my CT26 stays put in the shop.

As you said, to each their own....