Using CT Vacs with 75 Plunge - max amperage?

[Corwin]

In addition to solving the auto-vac-on, I also ordered the 50mm hose for the CT22 vac... I would like to improve the dust collection as well.   Once I get it all "just right" I will consider my 75 plunger for sheet breakdowns, a great alternative to a sliding table saw...while all these accessories cost more the saw itself (including the 118" rail, dual Gecko's, clamps, vac switch, 50mm hose, etc.), as I see it, this system will perform equal to a sliding table saw... at least for my needs... as I don't break down 50 sheets a day.... so in the end, a much lower cost, and most importantly, it dissapears when I am not using it, freeing up work space...       

I can understand upgrading from a D27 to a D36 hose, but I don't see where getting a D50 hose is going to work well.  First off, Festool doesn't make any tool-end fittings for the D50 , so you would need to work that out on your own -- you would probably need to step down to the D36 size at/near the tool.  Then, there is the stiffness of these hoses -- the bigger the hose, the stiffer and less flexible they are.  Aren't these issues gong to be a problem for you if you use the larger D50 hose?  And wouldn't the D36 hose be the better choice?

 

[JSands]

Corwin, thx for the feedback.... gotta admit, I was not aware the D50 hose did not have tool end connection... the pix sure looked as if it does.  Of course Festool makes a 50mm hose that does NOT have a tool end, for floor sweeping.... but the other hoses all appeared to have the same tool end as the 27mm hose.  I use the 50mm hose for floor sweeping, I can deal with its stiffness issue, but don't want to deal with the "end" issue... hopefully Shane can comment...

BTW, as much as I love Festool, and don't mind paying high prices for their tools.... I sure wish they would step-up their product info on their web site.  What is so hard about stating, what each end of the hose can connect to?  Many of the product descriptions leave ya scratching your head.  Since most of us buy this stuff sight unseen, the internet is the perfect marketing tool for sales asistance.

 

[JSands]

Carroll, amazing post... glad business is doing so well.

thx for sharing... 

 

[Corwin]

Unfortunately, you cannot always trust what you see in those catalog or website photos.  All too often they'll show the same photo for different size parts instead of using separate photos of each exact product.  This can be misleading.  Anyway, Festool only offers the two sized tool-end fittings, know as Reducing Hose Sleeves -- D27 Tool-End Fitting and D36 Tool-End Fitting.  The D50 hoses have the Rotating Hose Connector fittings on both ends, which will fit into you extractor's port or can fit into an Antistatic Hose Connector or many of the aftermarket shop-vac sized fittings.

I really think you should have ordered the D36 hose for your TS75 rather than that D50.

 

[JSands]

Corwin, you should work for Festool.. ;D

thx for the detailed info.... not sure why festool does not amp up there documentation... very confusing when 1) you use the same pix for every product which leaves out details we "could" see with no written descripton, and 2)  limited product descriptions...

Anyway, in this case, I found the 50mm to 36mm tool adapter, so for $15 I will try that first.... If I notice enough gain in suction, AND the 50mm hose is too cumbersome to follow the 75saw travel, I will order the D36 hose.  Since I plan to use the D50 for floor cleanings anyway, I am hoping it can perform double duty for the 75 plunge saw.  Cause for most other tools, the D27 house seems sufficient. 

But your point is well taken, the D36 is better suited to track the tools vs. the D50.  What hooked me on the D50 was the very significant added suction for floor sweeping.  Trying to reduce inventory of Festool products, arggggg...

 

[JSands]

the other thing I forgot to mention... the D50 non antistatic hose is actually flexible enough, no problems chasing the saw...but the antistatic hose, different story.....  just got the antitstatic (green) verison today, and yeah, its a stiffy....

BTW, how effective is the antistatic hose performance vs. the non antistatic version for use with the tools?  I never used the non antistaic with the tools?  I assume the outside of the tools really get coated? 

 

[Corwin]

...
Anyway, in this case, I found the 50mm to 36mm tool adapter, so for $15 I will try that first....
...

Which part are you referring to?  Do you have a link or a part number?

 

[JSands]

Festool rep said this will allow use of 50mm hose on tools that accept 36mm hose

Festool 452897

 

[Corwin]

And here I though that item was only useful when connecting two lengths of hose...  [doh]  But, yes, that fitting will fit into both the TS55 and TS75 dust ports, and other round ports.  This fitting is more rigid than the tool-end fittings that come with the smaller hoses, so I don't see it fitting into any oval ports.  Also, this fitting is listed as not being antistatic. 

 

[JSands]

arggg....good point again about loosing the antistaic benefit...

How effective is the anti static benefit in theses hoses when connected to tools?

I only used the antistatic with the tools so far, so have nothing to compare it too...I am wondering if there is little difference?

 

[Corwin]

You will be shocked by the difference.  [wink]

 

[JSands]

ahhh, was that just a playful pun (a clever good one for sure

or was it a TRUE statement, AND also happened to be a playful pun?

thx for your help Corwin..

 

[Corwin]

There were a couple of occasions awhile back when I was zapped using a tool and the vacuum when the antistatic connection was interrupted.  Once was using the Kreg pocket hole jig and a corded drill with my Festool extractor.  Another was while sanding on the first day I installed my Clearvue cyclone on my extractor and hadn't yet completed the antistatic connection.  So, yes, there was a little truth in my pun.  [tongue]   

 

[slb]

Let's see if I can shed some light on this. I've been hearing lots about the current draw on these saws but no one has reported actual numbers. So I went out and hooked up an amp meter. First, I don't have the TS-75, only a TS-55. Second, I don't have the Festool dust collector, only a Fein model 1.

So with just the TS-55 hooked up to the amp meter, I start the saw with no load and the speed is at 6. It jumps up past 15 amp (max reading of my meter) for about 1 second and then comes down to 7 amp. I lowered the speed to 1 and get the same results except the final reading is 5 amp. The initial surge to 15 amp is probably normal for any induction load such as a motor. The speed setting did make a difference in the current draw. Next I tried under load (rip cut some 8/4 oak) and it was 14-15 amps depending on how heavily loaded the motor was. Speed setting didn't seem to make a difference under load.

Next I tested my Fein DC with nothing plugged into it. In manual mode, it showed 10 amps and drops to 7 amps when I plug up the hose. I thought plugging the hose would create more load but evidently not.

Maybe some others will try this amp meter test and we can get more data. In the mean time I think you would need a 20 amp circuit with nothing else running on it. If it continues to trip the breaker, the breaker may be going bad or you need a different style breaker that withstand a short duration overload.

Common misunderstanding, Qwas.  Plugging up the hose on a vac or dust collector actually *reduces* the load on the blower because it can't move as much air.  That's why you can hear the pitch rise as the motor speeds up.

 

[Qwas]

Thanks Steve, I realized that after thinking about the amp meter reading I seen.  [smile] I was playing with one vacuum cleaner motor and noticed rapid heating when the air input was clogged. I figured most of the heat was from the lack of cooling air but also from the motor drawing more current. I now realize that was wrong also.  [embarassed] Maybe I can convert that motor to use for a vacuum clamp.  [smile]

 

[slb]

Thanks Steve, I realized that after thinking about the amp meter reading I seen.  [smile] I was playing with one vacuum cleaner motor and noticed rapid heating when the air input was clogged. I figured most of the heat was from the lack of cooling air but also from the motor drawing more current. I now realize that was wrong also.  [embarassed] Maybe I can convert that motor to use for a vacuum clamp.  [smile]

Yeah, that's one of the ways that household vacs and shop vacs differ: the household vacs usually pull the cleaning air through the motor to cool it.  If you reduce the airflow, the motor heats up for lack of cooling air, not from increased load.  Our local Miele vacuum repair guy told me that it is essential to replace the HEPA filter on schedule because if it clogs up it reduces cooling air which will overheat and ruin the motor.  It also means that if the bag leaks, all the escaped dust goes straight through the motor!  I once destroyed a household vac when the bag broke and the plaster dust I was cleaning up got into the motor bearings  :-[

On a shop vac there is a separate blower to cool the motor (essential if it is wet/dry!) and it will actually run cooler when plugged up!

On the original topic, electric motors typically draw around twice their nominal running current when stalled or first starting up.  So, unless the tool and vac current ratings add up to 10 amps or less, you are very likely to pop a 20 amp breaker if both motors start at the same time.  I've often wondered why they don't build in a small delay in the CT socket to reduce this issue - they already have a shut-down delay, so it can't be all that much added circuitry. [unsure]  It would also seem that a soft-start feature ought to reduce starting current, but it seems that the TS55 and TS75 don't do that.

I too have one of those two-circuit controller boxes from Lee Valley.  I use it for the dust collector connected to my DW planer.  That combo used to trip a 20 amp circuit nearly every time.  Works great.  The only shortcoming is that I need to run a cord across the room to an outlet that is on a different breaker!  With 20-20 hindsight, I should have wired the shop with two branches to each outlet.  Since I only work in one place at a time, that would have let me spread the load without the extension cords.

 

[slb]

Chris, what is an arch fault circuit?   Also, what was the amperage rating of the circuits you were tripping, all 20's?

After writing this post, I also recalled the 1400 tripping the breaker during a 1/2" wide, 3/4" deep, dado cut in hard maple... since that time, I simply abandoned this auto vac on feature.   But it is a nice time saver, hence my interest in diggin deeper.

If the saw can draw up to 17 amps,  then it seems my initial problems made perfect sense on a 20 amp circuit.   This might be a shortcoming of the 75 / vac combo...not the end of the world.

Also, if you lower the speed of the saw, I am not sure it will reduce the amp draw under the same load.   The amount of draw is dependent on the load, not the speed.  So if you subject the blade to the same work load, the total amount of work being performed remains unchanged....this of course assumes the saws control system always maintains the same rpm under load. 

I think he is referring to an arc-fault interrupter, which is now required by code on new circuits supplying bedrooms in much of the US.  Arc-fault interrupters are supposed to trip if they detect something that looks like sparking at a bad connection, a common cause of fires in bad wiring.  But they are notorious for false trips and for not liking the sparks at the commutator of a motor.