Venting on a company's forum

[festnoob]

Okay, so I've been reading through several threads about the disappointment many customers are having with the recent recall. Just based on "track" (no pun) record the company has had excellent customer service for a long time. We should take this into account based on the word of their customers not just because the company says so. They take excellent care of their customers. I have had to call Festool only once concerning a new tool and had the problem resolved within a week. There is no doubt that they have taken this issue seriously and are doing everything and working very hard to resolve the problem. They know what's at stake and will not jeopardize their reputation, although I'm sure some long time customers were surprised and a bit taken back.

On the other hand, customers who have come to rely on the dependability of the Festool brand have probably taken this recent issue personally. Some might feel as if they've been wronged, especially if this was their first purchase. Not to mention older customers who rely on Festool for their lively hood. Now, shouldn't those who have some anger about anything concerning a company be allowed to vent? After all, where else can the customer go? Often times the wife (or significant other) could care less? Some customers just need to get it off their chest. BUT (big BUT) this should only be done after the company has been given a chance to remedy or redeem themselves. Give them a chance, but keep in mind you might not be the only one with a problem. Others might have the same problem and therefore the company has to divide their time and employees accordingly, this of course causing longer wait time.

So I suggest we express our concerns and disappointments, but only after the company has been given the opportunity to address your concerns.

And for the record, I never told anyone to proceed in an unauthorized modification of their saw. I simply pointed out and listed the parts causing the problem.  [embarassed]

 

[Administrator_JSVN]

I believe we have a very open policy here on the forum and do not tend to "censor" or prevent negativity being posted about products or the brand. The reason we can do that is because we are a good company in my opinion. However, there are instances in which conversations venture into territory that could create liability issues.

Trust that this issue is our number one priority and we are working with a true sense of concern and urgency. In the interim, we are doing our best to accommodate and take care of our customers. There are regulations and procedures that must be followed.

I completely understand the frustration from some of you and I have repeatedly try to make myself available to anyone who need help or has questions. I sincerely appreciate the patience and understanding that we've received for the most part.

Feel free to vent all you want if you're irritated, but I cannot allow speculation on the cause of the issue, members recommending alteration of tools, humor that's in poor taste about potential injuries or the like. Feel free to call me and complain to me if you want. I've tried to allow threads where forum members have collaborated on which resolution option to choose and the pros/cons of the TS 75 exchange. But those topics have consistently diverted into a direction that we cannot allow here.

Shane
765-894-2172 (c)

 

[Kevin D.]

In the past, I agree with you entirely Shane.  But with these recent product recalls, I'm starting to question some of the positions/policies that Festool has taken.

This is meant as constructive criticism, as I'm not affected by any of the product recalls here in Canada.  But in a sense I am, as it is causing me to second guess getting more Festool products especially with Festool's position on their recalls here in Canada which don't just include the TS55REQ.  While it has been mentioned many times that there is a lot that cannot be discussed/mentioned from Festool from what I believe is a liability or regulatory reason, I think it is OK to simply talk from our end how we may perceive the current policy of what is being covered and people's options available from Festool for whichever product they have that is affected.  At least I hope we can discuss that openly here amongst forum members.

From what I understand, where the TS55REQ recall is concerned, Festool is offering either an upgrade to a TS75 or a refund of the purchase price.  At first glance that seems pretty fair, until you factor in that for most people, the guide rails that come with each saw are different.  I don't think a lot of folks realize that for many of them, they will possibly need to buy one or more additional rails in order to properly execute work efficiently and/or safety with their TS75's.

I really don't understand Festool not simply exchanging the guide rail also.  It comes with the purchase of either saw for a reason, and why has Festool decided to not do so baffles me.  Whoever made that decison imo may not have considered in not changing out the guide rails may in fact be setting them up for a lawsuit down the road should someone get injured as a result of using their TS75 with a TS55 suited/fitted rail?  (Don't answer that.  I'm just sayin' it doesn't seem right to me).  Festool is at third base on this and imo did not hit the homerun they could have by swapping out the rails also.

Now in Canada, we also have the CT MINI/MIDI's (any model year) and the RA115 sander being recalled.  In the case of the RA115, people can upgrade to the 125 (I think).  Not sure if they have a refund option.  In the case of the MINI/MIDI's, you can only upgrade to a CT26.  Strangely imo, there is definitely no refund option for the MINI/MIDI's. They will only cover the bags that may have been bought for them if you have a receipt.  This seems unfair to me.  Especially when you compare the apples to oranges situation here.  The TS55REQ recall is apparently due to a design flaw in that the blade is not retracting.  A design flaw can happen with anything that may have been adequately tested by a what I believe here is a prudent and conscientious manufacturer.  It happens all the time. 

In the case of the MINI/MIDI, the recall is related to the units not meeting Canadian safety standards.  That to me is completely different in that Festool did not due their due diligence in regards to being allowed to sell this product in Canada.  That is not very prudent, is it not?  I have no idea of what is involved with getting foreign manufactured machinery or power tools approved for sale in Canada, but it has to be that it is up to the importer to apply for whatever approval is necesasry to be able to sell their product(s) in Canada.  So why would they not be even more amenable to offering a refund on the units themselves and covering anything related to accessories related that one would have bought specific to these models even without a receipt.  How many DIY people keep receipts for things like consumables?  It makes no sense to me.  Especially puzzling though, is the no refund policy on the CT units themselves. 

I will not speculate as to the reason why Festool has taken this position, but it is a fair to cite this in what seems obvious to me in not being fair or good PR practice on what has to be an error on the part of Festool in offering them for sale in Canada in the first place.  If I was umping this one, you'd get a warning on a good day, and tossed any other day.  Just not fair game imo.

I love this brand and their products, but I have to admit, I'm getting nervous about buying anything else at this point.  I've got a Kapex in my LV shopping cart right now with a CT36AC, and have been itching for that application where I will get a big brother Domino XL for my Domino 500, but I'm really hitting the pause button right now.

Again, I don't expect an answer from Festool on any of this, but I do believe it is fair to discuss whether people are satisfied with their position/policy on these issues/concerns and whether they believe them to be entirely fair.  In fact, I think Festool may benefit from hearing what people think of their opinion on the fairness and thoroughness of any of these recalls.  But let's keep any discussion to the point and not speculate in such a manner that has caused previous threads to get locked down.

 

[basimerly]

Afternoon Shane,

First off, I'm proud to say I became a first time Festool owner of a TS 75 this week. Love it so far ! As others have said, why did I wait ? 

This forum is concerning though.  What concerns me the most isn't the recall, at all in fact.  Recalls will happen. In manufacturing and design you just can't account for every little thing that this planet has to throw at you, and I think Festool has absolutely show serious if not insane diligence in trying ( which I love!).  My worry lies in why threads have been locked down (forgive me if that's the wrong lingo). Why did things get to that point in the first place? Why are we at the point of publicly limiting liability ?  I understand that this is a very serious safety issue, or potentially one at least, so frankly I'm shocked it got as far as it did online before Festool put the recall on the 55 and immediately said "hey, we may have messed up, we're sorry, but were going to do what it takes to get it right.  If that would have happened on time, I feel like the threads I'm reading wouldn't have happened.  Instead the tones from Festool have been defensive, and almost scary corporate in manner.

Point is, with the next tool safety issue that pops up, and there will most understandably be more as long as there are saw blades and electricity, do I need to worry that Festool acts too slow, and inappropriately at the users expense ?  I think it's now clear that the biggest issue here is how this has been handled, not the 55 REQ. 

-Ben

 

[hockey_magnet]

Afternoon Shane,

  My worry lies in why threads have been locked down (forgive me if that's the wrong lingo). Why did things get to that point in the first place? Why are we at the point of publicly limiting liability ?  I understand that this is a very serious safety issue, or potentially one at least, so frankly I'm shocked it got as far as it did online before Festool put the recall on the 55 and immediately said "hey, we may have messed up, we're sorry, but were going to do what it takes to get it right.  If that would have happened on time, I feel like the threads I'm reading wouldn't have happened.   

-Ben

The threads would still happen regardless. Some Festool users, aside from extreme brand loyalty, also have a desire to try and figure out exactly what the problems are and try and "fix" things. Much of the time , that's what makes the forums so useful. However, in this case, Festool has acknowledged that there is an issue with the saws and to let discussions go on in terms of fixing the problem instead of simply returning the saws would turn into a legal liability since Festool owns the forums.

Chris

 

[hockey_magnet]

So why would they not be even more amenable to offering a refund on the units themselves and covering anything related to accessories related that one would have bought specific to these models even without a receipt.  How many DIY people keep receipts for things like consumables?  It makes no sense to me.  Especially puzzling though, is the no refund policy on the CT units themselves. 

I'm quite happy to swap out my 18 month old Mini for a brand new CT 26 that retails for +$180 more than I paid for my unit. You could always sell it and get more than your money back that way. Can you imagine a car dealer saying: Well, since your 2 year old car was not government certified, we're giving you a brand new, better car? Not likely! Also not likely they would give you a full refund.

I also don't believe it's been determined that the vacs don't meet the standards, only that they have not been approved, which is a big difference.

Chris

As far as the bags go, if you didn't have a receipt, will you pay to ship them back to Festool just to prove you bought them? I don't know how many bags you have, but since the CT 26 comes with a new bag with 2 or 3 times the capacity of a mini or midi, I doubt you're out that much for the bags anyway. And lots of places insist on receipts when returning even small stuff.

 

[Rick Christopherson]

My worry lies in why threads have been locked down (forgive me if that's the wrong lingo). Why did things get to that point in the first place? Why are we at the point of publicly limiting liability ? 

This is exactly the reason why I made a posting a few days ago summarizing the Consumer Product Safety Act. Threads are not being locked to prevent discussion. They are being locked because Federal Law prevents the discussion from taking place while the investigation is underway. Because this forum is owned by Festool, any discussion here is the legal equivalent of Festool making a public statement. That is prohibited under section 15(i) of the CPSA.

The information will come shortly. Just be patient.

 

[festnoob]

My worry lies in why threads have been locked down (forgive me if that's the wrong lingo). Why did things get to that point in the first place? Why are we at the point of publicly limiting liability ? 

This is exactly the reason why I made a posting a few days ago summarizing the Consumer Product Safety Act. Threads are not being locked to prevent discussion. They are being locked because Federal Law prevents the discussion from taking place while the investigation is underway. Because this forum is owned by Festool, any discussion here is the legal equivalent of Festool making a public statement. That is prohibited under section 15(i) of the CPSA.

The information will come shortly. Just be patient.

I agree with your statement but rather than talking about the facts of the recall we should keep this thread for airing-out how the recall has affected us or what in your opinion could've been done differently. I for one was going to take a deeper plunge with the ts75 exchange but because the rail was not included I decided not to. I'm in limbo now.

 

[festnoob]

BTW, basimerly,  [welcome] to the thread.

 

[Rick Christopherson]

....we should keep this thread for airing-out how the recall has affected us or what in your opinion could've been done differently.

Technically the recall doesn't even exist yet. That is why it cannot be discussed.

 

[festnoob]

....we should keep this thread for airing-out how the recall has affected us or what in your opinion could've been done differently.

Technically the recall doesn't even exist yet. That is why it cannot be discussed.

Haha...true. So let me rephrase: ...we should air-out how the "issue" has affect...

Is that better? [big grin]

 

[DrD]

The more thought I give to the TS options, the more thought I have to give to my recent commitment to Festool.  As I have stated here before, I am not a professional tradesman - just someone who is retired, who loves working with wood, and who fortunately can afford to spend some on tools. 
I opted for the swap, and on the face of it really can use the added power.  But.....but, there is the issue of the rails.  I have already had one serious accident from a kick back before transitioning to Festool, and don't want another.  So, to properly use my TS75, I really should spend another $185 for the proper rail.  That $185 would go a long way toward the PS2 sander, or any additional Festool product.  So, do I want to spend that money on any Festool product, or do I go back to PC gray, DW yellow, Makita blue, all of whom make very adequate tools for the hobbist?  They do get around the issue of "expensive".  In all the years I've been in woodworking, never had a Delta, Jet, Porter Cable, DeWalt, Makita, Ridgid, or Milwaukee recalled.  Just saying.
So, my point is that I wish, in full disclosure, I had been informed of the rail issue before I opted for the swap.

DrD

 

[Ta2ude]

I'm quite happy to swap out my 18 month old Mini for a brand new CT 26 that retails for +$180 more than I paid for my unit. You could always sell it and get more than your money back that way. Can you imagine a car dealer saying: Well, since your 2 year old car was not government certified, we're giving you a brand new, better car? Not likely! Also not likely they would give you a full refund.

That's one way to look at it but here is my opinion.
When I bought my Midi, I bought it specifically for it's size. The suction ratings were the same for all machines and they all had Hepa filters. I install hardwood floors and use it almost exclusivily with my Kapex. It is the perfect size for me, easy to carry up a flight of stairs and doesn't take up much space... which can be limited on many installs and my trailer... as well it is 8 lbs lighter than the CT26(thats with an empty bag). I just recieved my CT 26 replacement yesterday and the first thing I noticed is how huge it seems compared to my Midi. As crazy as it may sound I would take my Midi over the $124 difference in price, it was the perfect unit for me. If I sell the CT 26 what do I buy?? I am seriously considering keeping my Midi and sending the CT 26 back, I have not used it yet just taken it out of the box.

 

[Debug]

The rail is the reason is the reason I decided to wait for the repair and also because I have a few different blades for the TS55.  I am a hobbiest and love Festool for the dust collection and reliability.  Just frustrated since I am now without one of my favorite tools and have no idea when I will get it back.  I sold my original TS55 and bought the REQ because I liked what they did with the splinter guard, the subtle dust collection improvements, to name a few.  Was not about being the first or having the next new toy, it had some features that appealed to me and I figured I would get the same reliable tool since it was already out overseas.

 

[hockey_magnet]

I'm quite happy to swap out my 18 month old Mini for a brand new CT 26 that retails for +$180 more than I paid for my unit. You could always sell it and get more than your money back that way. Can you imagine a car dealer saying: Well, since your 2 year old car was not government certified, we're giving you a brand new, better car? Not likely! Also not likely they would give you a full refund.

That's one way to look at it but here is my opinion.
When I bought my Midi, I bought it specifically for it's size. The suction ratings were the same for all machines and they all had Hepa filters. I install hardwood floors and use it almost exclusivily with my Kapex. It is the perfect size for me, easy to carry up a flight of stairs and doesn't take up much space... which can be limited on many installs and my trailer... as well it is 8 lbs lighter than the CT26(thats with an empty bag). I just recieved my CT 26 replacement yesterday and the first thing I noticed is how huge it seems compared to my Midi. As crazy as it may sound I would take my Midi over the $124 difference in price, it was the perfect unit for me. If I sell the CT 26 what do I buy?? I am seriously considering keeping my Midi and sending the CT 26 back, I have not used it yet just taken it out of the box.

I was more responding to the person who thought they should be offered a refund instead of the CT 26. In your case I understand but you really don't have an option so a refund wouldn't help you anyway. If I were you I'd just keep the midi, there's nothing wrong with it. I use my mini with my Kapex as well but I don't think the size of the CT 26 will be an issue for me 

 

[peter halle]

I totally understand the frustration of everyone.  I have read every post here about recalls, posting about recalls, not understanding that it is a recall until the CPSC says it is a recall, ...,

Before you rake me over the coals as a member posting here - this is NOT being posted as a Moderator - I will offer that I started a thread a few years ago advising members to check out the CPSC for recalls on their tools and other owned products.

After reading the commentary here on how owners are being treated prior to an official recall I decided to look up two OTHER manufacturers' recalls for tools that I own just to show how others have done it.  Check out the links yourself.  See how other tool manufacturers have done this.

Sears radial arm saw recall

Ryobi Radial Arm Saw Recall

Just offering some examples for those who have never had to deal with this.

Peter

 

[festnoob]

I totally understand the frustration of everyone.  I have read every post here about recalls, posting about recalls, not understanding that it is a recall until the CPSC says it is a recall, ...,

Before you rake me over the coals as a member posting here - this is NOT being posted as a Moderator - I will offer that I started a thread a few years ago advising members to check out the CPSC for recalls on their tools and other owned products.

After reading the commentary here on how owners are being treated prior to an official recall I decided to look up two OTHER manufacturers' recalls for tools that I own just to show how others have done it.  Check out the links yourself.  See how other tool manufacturers have done this.

Sears radial arm saw recall

Ryobi Radial Arm Saw Recall

Just offering some examples for those who have never had to deal with this.

Peter

Granted that other companies have had recalls, but as Festool owners we all have this image that Festool is above and beyond any other company. Just because other companies have had recalls does not mean that we can't feel a sense of disappointment. Guys just want to express that.

 

[Sparky]

Ok time for my 2 cents. I decided this week to exchange my ts55req for the ts75.  [big grin] I am a contractor and use my tools everyday to make my living. It sucks to send a tool away and making due with a inferior tool while its gone but so is life. Anytime a tool breaks I need a backup while its getting fixed that's a part of being a contractor  I am more than happy with festools offer to upgrade the saw. As far as the guide rail size not working I look at it like who couldn't use another size guide rail I don't see what the deal is every one of us looks for a reason to buy new tools and accessories so here's your chance. I bought my first festool about 10 months ago and have collected 5 tools a ct 26 and the LR 32mm system. I have only been impressed with the quality of tools and extremely helpful staff. So thank you festool.

 

[nanook]

That's one way to look at it but here is my opinion.
When I bought my Midi, I bought it specifically for it's size. The suction ratings were the same for all machines and they all had Hepa filters. I install hardwood floors and use it almost exclusivily with my Kapex. It is the perfect size for me, easy to carry up a flight of stairs and doesn't take up much space... which can be limited on many installs and my trailer... as well it is 8 lbs lighter than the CT26(thats with an empty bag). I just recieved my CT 26 replacement yesterday and the first thing I noticed is how huge it seems compared to my Midi. As crazy as it may sound I would take my Midi over the $124 difference in price, it was the perfect unit for me. If I sell the CT 26 what do I buy?? I am seriously considering keeping my Midi and sending the CT 26 back, I have not used it yet just taken it out of the box.

I fully agree with this - IMO the stand-up thing to do would be for Festool should throw in the $100 accessory handle for Midi owners who are affected to maintain the portability of the system.    I bought my Midi for a reason.    Seriously considering keeping mine as the CT26 w/o handle is not a suitable replacement.  
That said, my 1yr old Midi need warrantee work -  [scared]

 

[nanook]

I'm quite happy to swap out my 18 month old Mini for a brand new CT 26 that retails for +$180 more than I paid for my unit. You could always sell it and get more than your money back that way. Can you imagine a car dealer saying: Well, since your 2 year old car was not government certified, we're giving you a brand new, better car? Not likely! Also not likely they would give you a full refund.

I also don't believe it's been determined that the vacs don't meet the standards, only that they have not been approved, which is a big difference.

Chris

If my 2yr old car was subsequently found not to be 'street legal' as your suggesting (i.e it does not meet min gov standards) and there was no fix for it - your darn right I would expect my money back.    I would also expect damages for costs related to the car that were not transferable or unique to the car, as well as coverage of any 'out of pocket' expenses related to the recall.  

Festool has a reputation for going 'above and beyond' (or at least it does on this forum)  - I wonder why they are offering on the TS55 recall a new unit, 'upgrade' or money back;  yet on the Midi recall (which is also a safety issue if you have a jobsite inspection) they are forcing users to take units that are just too large.  

Hope they catch this PR disaster - we'll see