What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty

[Mismarked]

I am in the “junior hobbyist” category.  I have only been using Festools for about four years, which means I can’t opine on any long-term trends, but it also means that all of my Festools are fairly recent production.
Perhaps it is because I don’t run the tools as much or as hard as the professional might, but I have yet to have a single problem with any of them that I can remember (except for my MFT top that swelled from humidity when I kept it in an open garage near the bay, which was user error).  If across-the-board quality issues have developed in the last few years, I would expect to have seen at least some problem in the new tools I have purchased (CT26, MFT, TS55, OF1400, RO90, DF500, ETS150, Carvex, 2 C12s, CSX, OS400, LR32, PRO5, parallel guides and various accessories) during this time period.
For me, the Festool system made woodworking, as opposed to rough work around the house, possible, based on accuracy and repeatability.  But equally, and perhaps more, important has been the FOG, which has provided too many ideas, solutions and inspirations to count.  The enthusiasm of those posting on the site over the past few years has always been an indication to me that there was/is, in fact, considerable brand loyalty, even though, in many cases the members might recommend alternative brands for particular types of tools.  For me, that enthusiasm, together with positive experiences working with the tools, did lead to my own brand loyalty.  And that continues.  It is something different from the green koolaid, and it isn’t blindness.  I am not going to buy a Festool that I don’t need (although I probably didn't really need the Vecturo), and I am not going to buy a Festool without considering the alternatives.  But if I need a tool that Festool sells, I am going to give it strong consideration based on my personal experience, which continues to grow.
I do wonder if the voices of those who do experience occasional problems appear much more pronounced on FOG, leading to brand loyalty threads, for at least two reasons: (1) those that don’t have issues typically don’t get on the website and post that their tools are working great--other than the posts about how perfect the CSX is (which IMO it is); and (2) if an occasional problem arises with a particular tool and those experiencing that occasional problem all post on the FOG, it looks like a mass plague when it appears on a website with what is likely a fairly limited number of members in relation to the number of Festool users worldwide.  Obviously, some members experience problems with tools, which happens with any manufacturer of products and is certainly frustrating when it happens. 
    There is just no way for me to conclude that there is an across-the-board quality control problem with Festool that should diminish my brand loyalty when we don’t know the sample size and I haven’t personally seen any issues with my own tools.

 

[Steven Owen]

Festool let’s the dust settle too long on product updates.  Makita has similar issues.  You wonder sometimes if Makita and Festool have some of the same board members. 

The routers need to be updated.  Improved dust collection on the OF 1400.

Bosch has done a great job riding Festool’s heals.  The Bosch ROS has caught up Festool on several models of Sanders and vacuums. 

The prices for Festool Antistatic hoses are totally insane.  There’s no reason for hoses to cost that much.

Bosch will be releasing a new group of higher performance router models in 2018.  We’ll have to see how the new models stack up against the Festool line in 2018. 

Festool really needs speed up inovation and product updates.  Bosch and other tool vendors are catching up making it increasly hard to justify the price of going green outside of the domino and some of their sanders.

 

[grbmds]

With all the negative comments many seem to have about Festool products, it's hard to understand why they would ever buy another. It's hard to understand why people continue to post since most seem to feel that Festool doesn't listen (at least those who seem most likely to post). If I were Festool's upper management I'd have to think very hard about discontinuing the FOG. Other companies get along fine without. When I bought my first Festool I got very good information and answers on the FOG. Now, if I truly need information about a product or tech support I call Festool or go to my favorite Woodcraft store in Madison, Wisconsin. Festool classes are also a good source. Any of those would provide the information better plus I don't have to take the risk that I will be verbally abused for my question or opinion.

 

[aloysius]

Well, they could start by sending everybody a $50 voucher for electric tools only.  Not really enough to actually buy anything, nor small enough to be insulting either.

Given the current price/performance ratio of many of their current range of tools, it would hardly hurt the company's bottom line either.

And how about sending each & every customer who has experienced premature Kapex failure a bigger, fatter, more meaningful voucher ($100? $200?) by means of an apology for all the accumulated angst & perceptions of corporate indifference.

Might perhaps go some way towards winning back a few hearts & minds.

 

[grbmds]

Well, they could start by sending everybody a $50 voucher for electric tools only.  Not really enough to actually buy anything, nor small enough to be insulting either.

Given the current price/performance ratio of many of their current range of tools, it would hardly hurt the company's bottom line either.

And how about sending each & every customer who has experienced premature Kapex failure a bigger, fatter, more meaningful voucher ($100? $200?) by means of an apology for all the accumulated angst & perceptions of corporate indifference.

Might perhaps go some way towards winning back a few hearts & minds.

Why would they send a $50 voucher to everyone. First it appears that most of the Festool tools don't fail. Mine didn't. Second no one has any idea what made tools fail; manufacturing defect, poor quality control, misuse, abuse, harder than normal use? My experience with Festool is they have always provided me top-notch support. Those that have problems complain. Generally I have gone to Festool if I had a question or a problem. I tried solving a problem on the FOG and found the responses weren't as good as those I got from Service.  When I have a problem with any tool I buy whichever brand I always go to the company first rather than an online forum. The correct answer comes quicker and without llkelihood of verbal abuse from the few on every forum who feel the need to do that.

 

[Steven Owen]

Well, they could start by sending everybody a $50 voucher for electric tools only.  Not really enough to actually buy anything, nor small enough to be insulting either.

Given the current price/performance ratio of many of their current range of tools, it would hardly hurt the company's bottom line either.

And how about sending each & every customer who has experienced premature Kapex failure a bigger, fatter, more meaningful voucher ($100? $200?) by means of an apology for all the accumulated angst & perceptions of corporate indifference.

Might perhaps go some way towards winning back a few hearts & minds.

Why would they send a $50 voucher to everyone. First it appears that most of the Festool tools don't fail. Mine didn't. Second no one has any idea what made tools fail; manufacturing defect, poor quality control, misuse, abuse, harder than normal use? My experience with Festool is they have always provided me top-notch support. Those that have problems complain. Generally I have gone to Festool if I had a question or a problem. I tried solving a problem on the FOG and found the responses weren't as good as those I got from Service.  When I have a problem with any tool I buy whichever brand I always go to the company first rather than an online forum. The correct answer comes quicker and without llkelihood of verbal abuse from the few on every forum who feel the need to do that.

People make similar complaints about Mirka even when they replaced sanders that were out of warranty.  People make the same complaints about Bosch even though Bosch send out replacement parts within 2-weeks for most tools and repairs happen within 30 days with some rare exceptions. 

 

[morts10n]

Buy back all Kapex at 85%  retail cost and offer the redesigned version at 15% discount to previous Kapex buyers

 

[overanalyze]

I think their perceived lack of honest response to the Kapex is their biggest ding on their rep right now. If it truly is a small percentage of failures then relase the numbers. As one their highest priced tools that sucker should outlast other brands. German engineering right? Supposed to be some of the best. Design a new motor that swaps into the existing setup and let everyone know your doing it.

I love the tools I own. I have a TS55, Trion 300, ETS125, Rotex 125, Pro5, Domino 500, a Midi, CT Sys, CT36AC, Planex, HKC55, and a Kapex. Bought them all to use in my company. They get used but never abused. The only issues I have ever had (knock on wood) was with the Kapex.

I will say their service is top notch...it has had the motor replaced 2 times in the last year. 2nd time it was out of warranty but they fixed it less my shipping cost. I think that is good service but it also has me wondering why? I presume because the motor is a problem.

My Kapex is always plugged into a CT vac plugged into the wall directly. Never on a genny. It is a finish trim saw only.

All that said I still will buy tools from them that I feel are worth the money. However it won't be another Kapex (and that sucks because I love that saw!) unless something is changed on them. To much money vs the risk vs the potential downtime.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

 

[grbmds]

Would any of those who complain about service in general, or specifically the Kapex, believe Festool if they did release their data? Based on the posts in this thread, I'd bet a release of the Kapex performance data would generate and immediate extremely long thread about the veracity and accuracy of the data. Maybe the Kapex is a bad tool or maybe it isn't. It really isn't important. If the Kapex you own fails after warranty before you think it should, it's a bad tool and, if it were me having the bad experience, I wouldn't buy another. What about all the people who have owned a Kapex for long periods without failure? Have we heard from them?

All of us can only speak from our experience. Mine has been great without exception (except for those tools I've bought that I found out I didn't really need, but that's my fault).

 

[Holmz]

Festool let’s the dust settle too long on product updates.  ...

The routers need to be updated.  ...
...
Festool really needs speed up innovation and product updates.  ...

I dunno...
The 30 year old Elu routers were very good.
Dust collection was an improvement.

Things like adding LED lights and minor "tweeks" seem (IMO) change that make the tools outdated, rather than resulting in a significant improvement.

Basically routers have been good tools for decades, and while I like motor brakes, brushless motors, LED lights, and dust collection, I cannot see myself rushing out to replace a great tool with one that is only slightly better.

Really how much innovation is left to be done? And can the R&D be spread across the routers to make them affordable?
That may be easier for Bosch and Makita if their sales numbers are a lot higher.

I would consider buying a Festool router now as it is really good, and I cannot envision the 2200 becoming a whole lot better.

 

[Cheese]

I would consider buying a Festool router now as it is really good, and I cannot envision the 2200 becoming a whole lot better.

Unless of course it grew LED lights...

 

[Holmz]

I use a headlamp... like a miner.
It works the same on many tools.

 

[Cheese]

I use a headlamp... like a miner.
It works the same on many tools.

So does flint and kindling... [big grin]

So why add something to your head when it could be added to the tool instead? My mantra for the morrow... lighten your load.

 

[Holmz]

I use a headlamp... like a miner.
It works the same on many tools.

So does flint and kindling... [big grin]

So why add something to your head when it could be added to the tool instead? My mantra for the morrow... lighten your load.

Clearly!
If buying a new tool... then yes I would like it.
But I have a bunch of tools and I am not going to go replace them all just for a light, which people know everyone wanted 5 years ago.
The $100 headlamp works with all of them and allows me to continue using those fine tools.

Maybe I can rephrase it all into more cogent prose which follows the thread title of "brand loyalty"?

If 'they' innovated a way to offer replacement parts to upgrade the existing tool(s), then that would IMO be nice.
(It would be uncommon in a consumer market to do that, and it more of a sustainability concept.)

Being able to upgrade an existing tool would do a lot more for "brand loyalty" (IMO), than releasing a newer version of last years "the best" tool, and my knowing (or believing) that there is a planned cycle of obsolescence that I am buying into. The later does not foster any brand loyalty in me - which this thread is directed at understanding.

In addition to LED light retrofits, another example would be if there was a brushless motor Kapex upgrade. Even I would stop to take a look.

As it is, once the tool is mine, it is no longer their tool, and we have no loyalty to each other, only legal warranty laws.
Then the only loyalty I have is to myself, and therefore I need to be loyal in treating and maintaining the tool in way to keep it useful.

If that same tool was backed in a planned evolution and upgrade, then it would be "our tool" (Mine and the manufacture's), and I would understand that we have a relationship to each other than extends past the point of sale, and that I would have loyalty to them as they are also loyally maintaining and extending the useful life of that tool.

As it is now about 1/2 of my purchases are previously owned tools which became outdated and made obsolete. So the loyalty is to some former concept of a tool which has been dropped. I am specifically referring to the DX93 which evolved to become an add on feature of a more complicated 'do it all' sander.

I have no faith that getting a more complicated router would not become obsolete next year in the quest for more innovation.
And hence I have a headlamp.

It doesn't matter if it is Festool, Bosch, Ford...
The Supreme court made corporations boats and planes legal people.
And people like to see commercials like the one where Juan is picking their coffee beans... And believing that they have some personal relationship.

One cannot have a two-way personal relationship with a concept as easily as they can with real people..

 

[Steven Owen]

I use a headlamp... like a miner.
It works the same on many tools.

So does flint and kindling... [big grin]

So why add something to your head when it could be added to the tool instead? My mantra for the morrow... lighten your load.

Clearly!
If buying a new tool... then yes I would like it.
But I have a bunch of tools and I am not going to go replace them all just for a light, which people know everyone wanted 5 years ago.
The $100 headlamp works with all of them and allows me to continue using those fine tools.

Maybe I can rephrase it all into more cogent prose which follows the thread title of "brand loyalty"?

If 'they' innovated a way to offer replacement parts to upgrade the existing tool(s), then that would IMO be nice.
(It would be uncommon in a consumer market to do that, and it more of a sustainability concept.)

Being able to upgrade an existing tool would do a lot more for "brand loyalty" (IMO), than releasing a newer version of last years "the best" tool, and my knowing (or believing) that there is a planned cycle of obsolescence that I am buying into. The later does not foster any brand loyalty in me - which this thread is directed at understanding.

In addition to LED light retrofits, another example would be if there was a brushless motor Kapex upgrade. Even I would stop to take a look.

As it is, once the tool is mine, it is no longer their tool, and we have no loyalty to each other, only legal warranty laws.
Then the only loyalty I have is to myself, and therefore I need to be loyal in treating and maintaining the tool in way to keep it useful.

If that same tool was backed in a planned evolution and upgrade, then it would be "our tool" (Mine and the manufacture's), and I would understand that we have a relationship to each other than extends past the point of sale, and that I would have loyalty to them as they are also loyally maintaining and extending the useful life of that tool.

As it is now about 1/2 of my purchases are previously owned tools which became outdated and made obsolete. So the loyalty is to some former concept of a tool which has been dropped. I am specifically referring to the DX93 which evolved to become an add on feature of a more complicated 'do it all' sander.

I have no faith that getting a more complicated router would not become obsolete next year in the quest for more innovation.
And hence I have a headlamp.

It doesn't matter if it is Festool, Bosch, Ford...
The Supreme court made corporations boats and planes legal people.
And people like to see commercials like the one where Juan is picking their coffee beans... And believing that they have some personal relationship.

One cannot have a two-way personal relationship with a concept as easily as they can with real people..

It’s odd that Festool doesn’t offer a 10 year warranty at the prices they charge.  Bosch keeps releasing newer models of similar products slowly eroding away the clear advantage Festool used to enjoy over their fellow German Competitor in Blue. 

Eventually if they don’t start innovating and refining their tools, they’ll eventually fall behind a Bosch’s newer tool offerings.

 

[Gregor]

If 'they' innovated a way to offer replacement parts to upgrade the existing tool(s), then that would IMO be nice.
(It would be uncommon in a consumer market to do that, and it more of a sustainability concept.)

Being able to upgrade an existing tool would do a lot more for "brand loyalty" (IMO), than releasing a newer version of last years "the best" tool, and my knowing (or believing) that there is a planned cycle of obsolescence that I am buying into. The later does not foster any brand loyalty in me - which this thread is directed at understanding.

In addition to LED light retrofits, another example would be if there was a brushless motor Kapex upgrade. Even I would stop to take a look.

As it is, once the tool is mine, it is no longer their tool, and we have no loyalty to each other, only legal warranty laws.
Then the only loyalty I have is to myself, and therefore I need to be loyal in treating and maintaining the tool in way to keep it useful.

If that same tool was backed in a planned evolution and upgrade, then it would be "our tool" (Mine and the manufacture's), and I would understand that we have a relationship to each other than extends past the point of sale, and that I would have loyalty to them as they are also loyally maintaining and extending the useful life of that tool.

Wise words.

 

[Stone Message]

With all the I am done and up in smoke posts I think a lot of people, me included have lost some trust with the Festool brand. So what could they do to get it back. I'll start with a few of my pet peeves.

1. the clear splinter guards hanging off of all my tracks. Go back to the black ones.

2. own up to the Kapex disaster and give people a 10 year warranty after all they bought the best shouldn't it be expected to last as long as a saw that costs half as much.

3. The TS 55 has less power than a saw that costs half as much? There is no reason for this saw to be so wimpy.

4. on cord for all the tools. That makes no sense to have 2 you can't tell apart unless you look at the plug.

What about everyone else what would you like to see improved.

FWIW this is meant to be a positive post not bashing but suggesting.

The OP is making it appear that all of the above are clear facts....

  - I like my splinter splinter guards as they are and mine have been firmly attached for years.

  - the problems that some people have experienced with their Kapex saws has not been quantified and so it is a bit of an exaggeration to state that it is a disaster - mine gets used every day and is still going strong after 6 + years. There was a poll inviting people to state if they had a problem with theirs (rather than helping to bash Festool when either their own Kapex was fine or they did not own one at all).

  - My TS55 is used mainly for sheets good but sometimes for cross cutting and ripping oak slabs. It does not lack power if the right blade is used for the task.

  - the One Cord issue could be solved by Festool by making one type a different colour, or maybe the user could do this very easily.

All of the above is opinion - the stuff in quotes is the OP's opinion and the stuff below that is mine. We are all entitled to our opinions.

Peter

 

[BGeva]

Yes, I could believe a company would budget 5% pay raise every year. I think that would be very reasonable. High performers get more and poor performers get less.

Those days are in the past as well as $.25 per gallon gas. Most US companies are settling for 1-2% and even this for “higher performers”. Also, for higher salary you are expected to perform more efficiently. So some of this expense is covered.

I think prices going up 5% every year is unreasonable. Also, selling for the same price with reduced complectation is another dirty trick not suitable for a company positioning itself this high.

On “buy Maffel” idea - nice idea that will bring the prices even higher, so not sure.

I just started to use Festool about a year ago. Started with sanders and so far very happy. Consumables are very expensive though.

Just few days ago got TS55 and the strips ON BOTH new rails are failing straight from the box! Not what I expected from $136 piece of aluminum...

BG

 

[Holmz]

...
On “buy Maffel” idea - nice idea that will bring the prices even higher, so not sure.
...
Just few days ago got TS55 and the strips ON BOTH new rails are failing straight from the box! Not what I expected from $136 piece of aluminum...
...

Did your decision for purchasing this track saw have a component of brand loyalty?

Do/did you understand other track saws and their rail systems, and all the pros and cons of different manufacturers gear?

What are you expecting from Festool to satisfy or improve your opinion of their saw?

 

[semenza]

This is bit    [off topic]  sorry.

      Before the clear anti-splinter strips there were black ones. If you go back in time on FOG you can find the topics discussing how to get the black ones off the rail in order to change them out. The adhesive was very strong and took work to remove. Back then people were asking for strips that were easier to get off.  Festool changed to the clear strips and the weaker adhesive. Now we have the opposite.  I think an in between is needed.

Seth