What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty

[RobWoodCutter]

"What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty?"

For the small percentage of folks that have had issues or the 100K people that currently own and use and are perfectly happy with their festools?

I buy Festool because they suite my needs and I can afford them. There is no Brand loyality=Blindness:

Vacs: CT-22 w/boom arm, CT-26, Midi
(2) MFT/3 tables
CMS w/2 extensions
Kapex
CXS set
T-18+3 set
Centrotec installer set
Kapex
TS-55 EQ
TS-75 EQ
Guide Rails: FS800/2,FS1400/2(2),FS1900/2,FS2700/2
HKC-55EB w/FSK420/FSK250/FSK670
OS 400 EQ-Set
OF 1010
OF 1400
OF 2200 + access set
MFK 700 EQ-Set
LR 32-SYS
Jigsaw Trion PS 300
Jigsaw Carvex PS 420 EBQ-Plus  + Access. Kit
Planer HL850 E-F-Plus
Domino DF500 Q-set w/(2) Beech Tenon assortment sets
Rotex RO 150
ETS 150/3 EQ-Plus
LS-130 EQ-Plus
DTS 400 REQ-Plus
DX 93 E
Festool Banner, T-shirt, Caps (2)

I also buy Lie-Nielsen, Powermatic, Woodriver, Pfiel, Bessey, Delta, Milwaukee, Apollo because they suit my needs and I can afford them.

If something breaks, I fix it myself. If it breaks again, I change to a different model or brands.

Why in the world anybody that depends on their tools for a living would buy a $1500 mitersaw when they have a perfectly good $350 mitersaw they have been using dependably for 20 years doesn't make sense. Don't drink the green cool-aid, and make a good business decision and take the $1500 and buy two $350 mitersaws and $300 worth of blades and put the balance in savings in a bank account.  If the $1500 saw does something that the $350 can't and it will save you in labor then figure out your return on investment and how long it will take to pay it off. If it pays for itself in 1 year, then so what if it craps out after a year. Buy another, because it should be able to pay for itself in a year as well. It is just a *** tool. It is the price of being in business.

Just because something is expensive doesn't mean it will be perfect and flawless, if it did then Ferrari/Royal Royce/Bentley would not need to offer any warranty on their cars because heaven forbid you spend a half million dollars on a car and have something break. For a half a million dollars it should run for 20 years without anything ever breaking down..

[cool] 

 

[grbmds]

Peter brings up a good point. It's always a mystery how many of those who have criticisms about specific tools have used them or are merely reiterating what someone else has told them. I would hope the criticisms are generated from use of the tool. If they are merely passed along by word of mouth, the failures and bad points about tools are magnified beyond their importance.

 

[Cheese]

Festool worried too much about being one of the lightest miters saws on the market.

Actually that’s the reason I bought my Kapex...getting too old to move my 70# Milwaukee slider around.

 

[Steven Owen]

Steven,  have you used a Kapex?

Peter

I’ve had one chance to use one for a project in a night class at a local college.  The Kapex does make it easier to set-up angles over my Dewalt. I had to buy a separate digital protractor to set accurate 30 degree cuts on my Dewalt.  The dust collection is better on the Kapex.  The lasers are more accurate.  The laser on the Dewalt is uselsss after calibration.

With some add-on’s from Tenryu, Woodpeckers, Infinity Tools, and Incra, I can make the Dewalt cut as accurately as the Kapex with $400 worth add-on’s.

At $1200 Canadian.  I might have given the Kapex a look.  At $2000 dollars, I’d rather put that money into a track saw or a Domino. 

 

[Holmz]

...
Kapex was supposed to be the platinum standard in Miter Saws but it’s been anything but.  A $500 Bosch and Dewalt run circles around a $2000 dollar Festool miter saw. 
...

Ignoring smoking motors...
In what other ways do the Bosch and deWalt run circles around the Kapex?

Their reliable.  You know they’re going to work when you need them too.  Kapex has a better design.  That’s completely irrelevant if the saws have such a poor reliability and can’t be trusted.

They're their reliability is one aspect of "design".
I intentionally opened the question with... "Ignoring smoking motors..." , which I have now bolded and underlined.

Since you're opining, I will respond in kind...

I am not the biggest fan of a Kapex. But then I do not use a chop saw nor a mitre saw much (ever), and I would therefore not listen to my input on the subject of them.

However as far as design goes in terms of ergonomics and function, I do not see circles being run around it.
(Much in the same way that a running model-T ford which runs, is not therefore superior to any modern car)

I still see the Kapex as a "platinum standard". But it would be nice if there was a motor upgrade option for non smokers.

 

[Steven Owen]

...
Kapex was supposed to be the platinum standard in Miter Saws but it’s been anything but.  A $500 Bosch and Dewalt run circles around a $2000 dollar Festool miter saw. 
...

Ignoring smoking motors...
In what other ways do the Bosch and deWalt run circles around the Kapex?

Their reliable.  You know they’re going to work when you need them too.  Kapex has a better design.  That’s completely irrelevant if the saws have such a poor reliability and can’t be trusted.

They're their reliability is one aspect of "design".
I intentionally opened the question with... "Ignoring smoking motors..." , which I have now bolded and underlined.

Since you're opining, I will respond in kind...

I am not the biggest fan of a Kapex. But then I do not use a chop saw nor a mitre saw much (ever), and I would therefore not listen to my input on the subject of them.

However as far as design goes in terms of ergonomics and function, I do not see circles being run around it.
(Much in the same way that a running model-T ford which runs, is not therefore superior to any modern car)

I still see the Kapex as a "platinum standard". But it would be nice if there was a motor upgrade option for non smokers.

The most important feature of any tool is reliability.  Your tool can spin straw into gold; it doesn’t matter if your tool is smoking and blowing up in your face in a short period of time.

It’s even worse when a company won’t step up and take care of a client who dropped $2k on a faulty product.

 

[Kev]

Here it goes again ... brand loyalty = blindness, etc, etc, etc.

NO IT DOESN'T.

Being loyal to a brand can simply mean that the brand generally meets a number of your product buying objectives and that you have a default preference ... using the word "blindness" is quite frankly infuriating and by that you are effectively calling brand loyal people stupid and that is very insulting.

If prior to buying a particular thing you are aware of brand specific attributes that have value to you your are showing signs of brand loyalty, whether you are prepared to admit it or not. If admitting this is too painful, maybe you can classify yourself as "brand aware" to limit the excruciating pain of being wrong [big grin]

As for the other rubbish about the system being no more than a "buying trap" ... get real, the tools and accessories have been engineered to work together and yes, the accessories and consumables are expensive ... all of the prices are published, it's not a "trap". Buying a tool and completely ignoring the price of accessories and consumables and complaining about it afterwards doesn't make you look like the sharpest tool in the shed!

 

[Zebt]

Thought I'd drop my post from the 'I am done' thread here as it is all related.

Manufacturing and mass product sale is a very very tricky business to sustain over a long period of time without re-invention or change, for many products the change is driven by technology and is a boon for the manufacturer (consumer electronics is an example).
However, and here's the kicker, Festool have positioned themselves in a zone that makes change even more difficult for two main reasons, one is due to the very nature of power tools, their very existence is based on human ergonomics, motors and materials (usually wood)....none of which have changed in a very very long time, therefore the opportunity to continue to sell more and grow is limited, upgrades can easily become gimmicky and the tool itself will remain basically the same but be fine tuned which has a limit. The second reason is the high end target market, always a difficult one to sustain if you are mainly growth focused. Any restaurant owner will know this, if you look at maximising profit you will always end up with McDonalds, and you will never win a Michelin star!
Festool won some Michelin stars in the old days and probably deserves one for the Domino, maybe the MFT and more,  but overall perhaps they are suffering from every businesses worst nightmare, should we keep the standard and NOT maximize profit ie. not pursue continuous growth and cost reduction?

My opinion is that continuous growth and profit maximizing should never be on the goal list of a company that wants to keep a 'Michelin star standard' with its product, it should look at customer retention, innovation, product support and quality ie. the very reasons Festool has a loyal and passionate following. This does not mean that seeking increased market share should not factor at all in the business plan, it simply means that these type of goals should never compromise the basic ethos of the product.
I have worked in manufacturing of a niche product line and know how easy it is to screw up by focusing too much on profit or cost of manufacturing (essentially the same thing).

Luckily I haven't had any major issues with the way too many Festool items I have, even after using my CXS to drill through 12mm thick steel plate with a 13mm cobalt bit (I love the way the larger centrotec chuck fits the small drill!)..I was on a ship refit in Singapore and our other drill batts were flat and there was no mains power available, so out comes my little often laughed at CXS to save the day

 

[Sanderxpander]

Here it goes again ... brand loyalty = blindness, etc, etc, etc.

NO IT DOESN'T.

Being loyal to a brand can simply mean that the brand generally meets a number of your product buying objectives and that you have a default preference ... using the word "blindness" is quite frankly infuriating and by that you are effectively calling brand loyal people stupid and that is very insulting.

If prior to buying a particular thing you are aware of brand specific attributes that have value to you your are showing signs of brand loyalty, whether you are prepared to admit it or not. If admitting this is too painful, maybe you can classify yourself as "brand aware" to limit the excruciating pain of being wrong [big grin]

As for the other rubbish about the system being no more than a "buying trap" ... get real, the tools and accessories have been engineered to work together and yes, the accessories and consumables are expensive ... all of the prices are published, it's not a "trap". Buying a tool and completely ignoring the price of accessories and consumables and complaining about it afterwards doesn't make you look like the sharpest tool in the shed!

I guess it boils down to having a different definition of loyalty. I hope I didn't insult anyone, I certainly didn't mean to.

 

[Cheese]

I hope I didn't insult anyone, I certainly didn't mean to.

Rest assured...it’ll take more than that to get the hornets on this website to get disturbed.

 

[grbmds]

Who really cares whether Festool promotes brand loyalty? Festool tools will sell if they continue to produce high quality, high performing tools with a great warranty and great service. If they don't do that customers will move away from buying their tools and they will deserve what they get. I think that consumers, especially tradesman, are smarter than to buy tools just to complete a set or develop a system. Their system is what works for them because they have to constantly produce things and must do that the best way possible. For me (really I'm speaking about me only), as a home wood shop user, it isn't as important to me to be as efficient as possible since my satisfaction comes from the work I'm doing to complete something, the success, the quality, and beauty of the final product, whether it's a shop cabinet or furniture. So, brand loyalty isn't really an issue. People will buy the tools that work and perform the best for them.

 

[Steven Owen]

Thought I'd drop my post from the 'I am done' thread here as it is all related.

Manufacturing and mass product sale is a very very tricky business to sustain over a long period of time without re-invention or change, for many products the change is driven by technology and is a boon for the manufacturer (consumer electronics is an example).
However, and here's the kicker, Festool have positioned themselves in a zone that makes change even more difficult for two main reasons, one is due to the very nature of power tools, their very existence is based on human ergonomics, motors and materials (usually wood)....none of which have changed in a very very long time, therefore the opportunity to continue to sell more and grow is limited, upgrades can easily become gimmicky and the tool itself will remain basically the same but be fine tuned which has a limit. The second reason is the high end target market, always a difficult one to sustain if you are mainly growth focused. Any restaurant owner will know this, if you look at maximising profit you will always end up with McDonalds, and you will never win a Michelin star!
Festool won some Michelin stars in the old days and probably deserves one for the Domino, maybe the MFT and more,  but overall perhaps they are suffering from every businesses worst nightmare, should we keep the standard and NOT maximize profit ie. not pursue continuous growth and cost reduction?

My opinion is that continuous growth and profit maximizing should never be on the goal list of a company that wants to keep a 'Michelin star standard' with its product, it should look at customer retention, innovation, product support and quality ie. the very reasons Festool has a loyal and passionate following. This does not mean that seeking increased market share should not factor at all in the business plan, it simply means that these type of goals should never compromise the basic ethos of the product.
I have worked in manufacturing of a niche product line and know how easy it is to screw up by focusing too much on profit or cost of manufacturing (essentially the same thing).

Luckily I haven't had any major issues with the way too many Festool items I have, even after using my CXS to drill through 12mm thick steel plate with a 13mm cobalt bit (I love the way the larger centrotec chuck fits the small drill!)..I was on a ship refit in Singapore and our other drill batts were flat and there was no mains power available, so out comes my little often laughed at CXS to save the day

I agree.

My home shop is a rainbow.  I have Makita, Dewalt, Milwaukee, Kreg, Woodpeckers, JessEm, Festool, Bosch, ect.  I’ll be adding more Festool, Mirka, Incra, Mafell and other brands to that list.

It’s not about having the best of the best.  It’s about having the best tool for job at a price I can afford. 

Often great tool at 1/2 of 1/3 the price of the best of the best can do the job just as well as the platinum standard tool offen at the expense of some speed and efficiency. 

If every tool purchase was always about having the best of the best and nothing less I’d have shop full of pretty pristine tools that never get used because I wouldn’t have any money left over for any projects.

 

[Kev]

I agree.

My home shop is a rainbow.  I have Makita, Dewalt, Milwaukee, Kreg, Woodpeckers, JessEm, Festool, Bosch, ect.  I’ll be adding more Festool, Mirka, Incra, Mafell and other brands to that list.

It’s not about having the best of the best.  It’s about having the best tool for job at a price I can afford. 

Often great tool at 1/2 of 1/3 the price of the best of the best can do the job just as well as the platinum standard tool offen at the expense of some speed and efficiency. 

If every tool purchase was always about having the best of the best and nothing less I’d have shop full of pretty pristine tools that never get used because I wouldn’t have any money left over for any projects.

I'm lacking any decent brands in indigo and violet ... I certainly have all the other colours well covered, with at least 6 brands of green and four in blue - just off the top of my head.

 

[Steven Owen]

I agree.

My home shop is a rainbow.  I have Makita, Dewalt, Milwaukee, Kreg, Woodpeckers, JessEm, Festool, Bosch, ect.  I’ll be adding more Festool, Mirka, Incra, Mafell and other brands to that list.

It’s not about having the best of the best.  It’s about having the best tool for job at a price I can afford. 

Often great tool at 1/2 of 1/3 the price of the best of the best can do the job just as well as the platinum standard tool offen at the expense of some speed and efficiency. 

If every tool purchase was always about having the best of the best and nothing less I’d have shop full of pretty pristine tools that never get used because I wouldn’t have any money left over for any projects.

I'm lacking any decent brands in indigo and violet ... I certainly have all the other colours well covered, with at least 6 brands of green and four in blue - just off the top of my head.

It’s sad when a lot of contractors fix their 3-year old Kapex’s by going to Amazon and buying the well reviewed Bosch miter saw.  They get 10-12 years out of the Bosch that performs 90% as well as the Kapex.

 

[peter halle]

Just for clarity what is that Bosch saw they are purchasing?

Peter

 

[Oldwood]

So when I said brand loyalty I should have said image or the like. I think Festool sells the image of a quality premium tool with a price that reflects that. I think that image has been tarnished by some of the issues mentioned in this thread and by the lack of action or even evidence of concern by Festool on some of these issues. I think that if they had just said ya the 2 cords is a bone head move and switched to one it would have gone a long way to preserving the image of a premium tool manufacturer.

The clear splinter strips just don't work well for some of us and it would be nice if they would recognize that and offer the old one as an option instead of having us buy Makita strips.

Some of this of course is just minor but when you position yourself a a quality premium tool part of that has got to be longevity. I buy tools to make a living and I need to know if I pay for a quality tool it will last. Because of the way the Kapex issue has been handled or not handled I am not that confident the extra cost will buy me a tool that will last.

Of course Festool is a company that needs to show a profit and they will do what they think is the best thing to do for the company.

And for the brand loyalty is blindness posts ............I agree  [cool]

 

[Steven Owen]

Just for clarity what is that Bosch saw they are purchasing?

Peter

 

[peter halle]

I have to disagree with the comment that contractors are getting 10 to 12 years out of the Bosch Glide saw - that isn't accurate at this point.  It hasn't been out for ten to twelve years yet.  Released in 2010.

Is the Kapex, and perceptions about the Kapex an issue for Festool?  Yep in my opinion.

Peter

 

[Steven Owen]

I have to disagree with the comment that contractors are getting 10 to 12 years out of the Bosch Glide saw - that isn't accurate at this point.  It hasn't been out for ten to twelve years yet.  Released in 2010.

Is the Kapex, and perceptions about the Kapex an issue for Festool?  Yep in my opinion.

Peter

You’re paying a huge premium on the Kapex for the Festool logo.  With a more reliable motor it’s a good saw.  It’s not worth $2000 Candaian to buy one.  I’d that put that money into a high end table saw or a track saw before spending that much miter saw.

At $1000 dollars - $1200 dollars the Kapex would sell more units.  At $2000 it has a huge perception hill to climb in the miter saw market.

The Kapex’s real target audience is trim installers and finishers working in people’s homes.  Most Fine Furnitue and home shop enthusiast are probably not gong to see the upshot of spending a lot of money to but the Kapex.  We have too alternatives to do the same cuts on alternative tools in a shop.

I might average 4-8 bevel cuts in a furnite project.  I have the time to adjust and fiddle around a little bit.  Someone working on a tight deadline with 80 - a couple of hundred bevel cuts to do on a house will have greater appreciation of the Kapex.

 

[petar73]

Hi everyone, still new here but I would like to share a few words as well (English is not my first language so bare that in mind). I have Kapex 120 (240V) and touch wood it has been all good so far and I had to use colleague’s bosch glide saw for a couple of weeks and I wasn’t impressed with it. It was accurate in spite of the fence been bowed, it is very heavy – took two of as to load it and unload it and I have never got used with the bevel front controls for that time.  The build quality wasn’t very good and  I found it underpowered when we had to use it through extractor connected to 3kW transformer (the saw was 110V), it was better on its own without the extractor. I am not saying it is not a good saw, but here in Europe it cost nearly as much as the kapex  so for me the festool is the better saw. Having said that I cannot ignore festool’s salience about the Kapex motor problem so for some time now I second guess every festool purchase I have to make as I surely lost some trust in the company.