What gives?

[ChuckM]

No brass stuff in my possession, but someone has to pry the American stainless steel BCT ware from me! [tongue]

By the way, anyone who knows any source where the old marking gauge (MG2) from BCT can be had, please PM me. [big grin]

 

[GPowers]

The LIMITED TIME AVAILABILITY of some products is very frustrating. It was not too bad with the installer kits. BUT now the STM 1800 work/cutting table is a limited production product. I would think if it is good enough to produce and sell a new product then make it a permanent addition to the catalog. Especially when it enhances the Festool System.

This limited availability of a product during COVID is just adding insult to injury. It is hard enough just buying norml things let alone LIMITED TIME AVAILABILITY products.

Come on FESTOOL keep making the STM 1800. PLease!

 

[peter halle]

The LIMITED TIME AVAILABILITY of some products is very frustrating. It was not too bad with the installer kits. BUT now the STM 1800 work/cutting table is a limited production product. I would think if it is good enough to produce and sell a new product then make it a permanent addition to the catalog. Especially when it enhances the Festool System.

This limited availability of a product during COVID is just adding insult to injury. It is hard enough just buying norml things let alone LIMITED TIME AVAILABILITY products.

Come on FESTOOL keep making the STM 1800. PLease!

I would hope like you that they continue offering the STM in North America.  In their defense they did market it as a limited time offering.  I bought one earlier than I normally would because of just that fact.

Peter

 

[DeformedTree]

Right, many of us ordered early and had that long wait of having a big chunk of money just hanging out there for something to come some day. Festool was very clear about it.

Like others, I hope it becomes a regular product. I don't know that I can justify the cost of buying a second one, but I know owning 2 of them would be great, one for storing sheet goods on, and one to slide them on to for cutting.

 

[RustE]

The LIMITED TIME AVAILABILITY of some products is very frustrating. It was not too bad with the installer kits. BUT now the STM 1800 work/cutting table is a limited production product. I would think if it is good enough to produce and sell a new product then make it a permanent addition to the catalog.
...

Festool is taking a page from the Woodpeckers’ playbook. It’s “limited” now, until they see how much people really want it.

 

[GPowers]

Festool is taking a page from the Woodpeckers’ playbook. It’s “limited” now, until they see how much people really want it.

Except the Festool products are available in other countries, just not in the USA. 

 

[mino]

Guys, ref. STM If I remember right, it was sold for $999 at the pre-order, so about a 40%*) discount in the US compared to the retail in Europe.

If Festool were to make it permanent - I agree they should - the US cost will need to be in the $1500-ish range (pre-tax).

Not sure how big a market there would be at that price. I always get the feeling US is more cost-sensitive on these "metal things" than Europe.

What I see more practical is Festool finds a local supplier in US who is willing to make it so it can be sold at closer to $1000 than to $1500 with only small parts shipped from Europe.

My 2 cents.

*)Err, 30% ... slapping myself for failing 3rd grade math ...  [scared]

 

[DeformedTree]

Not sure how big a market there would be at that price. I always get the feeling US is more cost-sensitive on these "metal things" than Europe.

What I see more practical is Festool finds a local supplier in US who is willing to make it so it can be sold at closer to $1000 than to $1500 with only small parts shipped from Europe.

They might, there is probably a fair bit of fixtures for it. It's pretty dense when it comes to shipping, so it's not like it's the problem of shipping a big box of air.

They make rails here, but that sorta makes sense as it avoids shipping damage across the ocean. But the rail is also really easy to make.  Not sure if the setup to make the STMs would be worth it.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

Festool is taking a page from the Woodpeckers’ playbook. It’s “limited” now, until they see how much people really want it.

That is the exact reason that I don't have a bunch of their stuff. I hate the concept of "one time" tools.
It seems fishy to me, like they are artificially generating sales? I can't be the only one who is put off by this tactic. Things happen. I have lost everything due to a fire and if I couldn't replace the things I had been dependent upon?
Sure, it is kind of going on now, but that is not intentional. Supply chains are disrupted, shipping is slow, etc.
"Limited" edition that is only produced once a year or something might be acceptable, but one time? No, not for me.

 

[DeformedTree]

That is the exact reason that I don't have a bunch of their stuff. I hate the concept of "one time" tools.
It seems fishy to me, like they are artificially generating sales? I can't be the only one who is put off by this tactic. Things happen. I have lost everything due to a fire and if I couldn't replace the things I had been dependent upon?
Sure, it is kind of going on now, but that is not intentional. Supply chains are disrupted, shipping is slow, etc.
"Limited" edition that is only produced once a year or something might be acceptable, but one time? No, not for me.

No, you are not alone.

I get if business want to have "test products", where they make clear they are putting it out there and if it sells well, it will become a long term product.  But the woodpeckers model, no thanks.  Plus their stuff is basically all CNC'd bits. They could almost just manufacture on demand.

Really with anything, I want to be able to buy the same thing again, any time and long into the future. Like you say, you might have something happen and need a replacement.  Thus why I don't want a discontinued tool, I could care less about 10 year parts/EKAT/etc.  thats great and all, but the point is I want to be able to go out and buy one 4 years from now, or this afternoon.

I think the STM1800 was a test product, or test for the market. Which I'm glad to see Festool do. I'd like to see them do it for more stuff. Offer more tools from other parts of the world, maybe they have to have similar special orders to justify it. It's understandable they might not think there is a market, but they won't know till they try.  Or if it's a low volume product, just have a window to buy every now and then so you do one shipment, and that covers everyone for a bit.  Say MFS, do a bulk order once a year.  The sorta doing that with the clamping set all ready.

 

[mino]

That is the exact reason that I don't have a bunch of their stuff. I hate the concept of "one time" tools.
It seems fishy to me, like they are artificially generating sales? I can't be the only one who is put off by this tactic. Things happen. I have lost everything due to a fire and if I couldn't replace the things I had been dependent upon?
Sure, it is kind of going on now, but that is not intentional. Supply chains are disrupted, shipping is slow, etc.
"Limited" edition that is only produced once a year or something might be acceptable, but one time? No, not for me.

I would say this one-time-tool or once-a-decade-tool thing kinda works for the DYI/Hobby/Artist market where once a specific tool is introduced, people who need it buy it within a year-two and then the sales drop to easily 1/10 and are sustained.

This means while the tool may be (even very) profitable at original prices for the first year or two, it becomes impossible to sell it at a profit at the initial price as the fixed costs to keep opened a production line/tooling and maintain inventory simply overwhelm all the other costs. Raising prices is not an option - people expect the prices to drop, not increase when demand drops. Setting initial price high-enough to allow long-term availability will kill the TAM drastically. Basically pricing the tool out of the market.

The Companies then decide instead of going through that headache to simply produce a certain tool for a limited time, while the demand is high-enough to be profitable at the initial price and then drop the tool. This allows the tool to be sold at a lower price than would otherwise be possible but only for short period of the initial demand spike.

I would absolutely agree that this model is anti-business, hence a comment it being more DYI-oriented.

I would say the companies are underestimating peoples ability to use brain here.

I believe Festool should move from "limited offering" to "limited price offer for initial purchases" and bluntly state what the price will be after the initial sales period - which will be defined - for sustained availability. E.g. state, openly, that STM 1800 is a $1500 tool (or even $2000, whatever the break-even for sustained-but-low sales) but there is a limited introductory price of $995 which will be valid for and switch back to "normal" price afterwords.

An over-priced tool one can buys is always better than a tool one cannot buy but needs. I do not see a reason why this could not work with today prevalence of e-commerce where there is no need to have stock across your retail network. There is such a thing as catalog-ordering after all. Kinda how the B2B side works across the board.

 

[mino]

...
Or if it's a low volume product, just have a window to buy every now and then so you do one shipment, and that covers everyone for a bit.  Say MFS, do a bulk order once a year.  The sorta doing that with the clamping set all ready.

Even better, officially define a range of SKUs as specialist-tool/component-with-long-lead-time (say 2 months) with an OPTION of expedited delivery at a significant premium - say $200 for across-the-globe shipping to you when you NEED it. The Global delivery would be again, optional for tools/accs. which are sold worldwide and would cover them shipping it from their warehouse in South Africa, should that be the only place they have it.

These days, there are global shippers which can support such a model. This was not so a decade ago, so may need some out-of-the-box thinking but can be done if there is a want.

 

[DeformedTree]

I'm sure some customs and import stuff comes into play.  Thus if it comes down to doing 1 batch once a year, that could be an option if it makes things any easier for them. 

On non-electrical stuff, it's just hard to understand why they don't just make everything available everywhere. If it is stuff that they don't expect to be big sellers, just have Festool USA (or insert country here) version of Festool sell it direct. Don't force dealers to stock something that they might sell 2 of.

On electrical stuff, I think we all get there is certifications. But they make this stuff every day and sell it in all these countries. There is no way they don't design all their stuff to the same common safety laws. Getting approval in different countries should be very straightforward for them. Thus if they want to sell 230V tools here, it's hard to see how it is any more than a cord change and a quick review from UL. Looking it up, the approval would cost less than 10k, so it's not like they need to sell many tools to cover that.

Think of a few years ago. If Festool USA put out an offer to sell 230V Kapex and a Matching CT, with something like "if we get 100 pre-orders, we will do it".  Pretty sure they would have had no issue selling those here.

 

[Dr. P. Venkman]

That is the exact reason that I don't have a bunch of their stuff. I hate the concept of "one time" tools.
It seems fishy to me, like they are artificially generating sales? I can't be the only one who is put off by this tactic. Things happen. I have lost everything due to a fire and if I couldn't replace the things I had been dependent upon?
Sure, it is kind of going on now, but that is not intentional. Supply chains are disrupted, shipping is slow, etc.
"Limited" edition that is only produced once a year or something might be acceptable, but one time? No, not for me.

No, you are not alone.

I get if business want to have "test products", where they make clear they are putting it out there and if it sells well, it will become a long term product.  But the woodpeckers model, no thanks.  Plus their stuff is basically all CNC'd bits. They could almost just manufacture on demand.

Really with anything, I want to be able to buy the same thing again, any time and long into the future. Like you say, you might have something happen and need a replacement.  Thus why I don't want a discontinued tool, I could care less about 10 year parts/EKAT/etc.  thats great and all, but the point is I want to be able to go out and buy one 4 years from now, or this afternoon.

I think the STM1800 was a test product, or test for the market. Which I'm glad to see Festool do. I'd like to see them do it for more stuff. Offer more tools from other parts of the world, maybe they have to have similar special orders to justify it. It's understandable they might not think there is a market, but they won't know till they try.  Or if it's a low volume product, just have a window to buy every now and then so you do one shipment, and that covers everyone for a bit.  Say MFS, do a bulk order once a year.  The sorta doing that with the clamping set all ready.

I can't disagree with either of you, but I'll defend Woodpecker's here a little bit.  They are going after the DIY market - their one time tools aren't really designed to be things that contractors use hard day after day.

A good number of their OTT's repeat somewhat frequently, and a decent number have turned into permanent offerings.  I think that is them testing the market and then deciding to continue to offer a popular tool. 

Quite a few of those that haven't become permanent are just variations of something that they or someone else has available all the time (a square in a different color, or a straight edge made of different material).  Then there are a bunch of borderline toys that are as much collector's items for enthusiasts as anything.

Woodpecker's isn't Festool or Milwaukee, where the tools are beaten up by professionals every day and need to be able to be replaced or maintained. As you point out, it's largely just CNC'd aluminum - there mostly aren't motors or parts to break.

But I completely understand the aversion to something you can't replace or expand upon.  I certainly wouldn't buy a one time tool track saw, but I don't have a problem with a set of gauge blocks or a precision triangle. (Disclosure: I've never purchased a Woodpecker's One Time Tool).

 

[peter halle]

Think of a few years ago. If Festool USA put out an offer to sell 230V Kapex and a Matching CT, with something like "if we get 100 pre-orders, we will do it".  Pretty sure they would have had no issue selling those here.

Respectfully, I think you are mistaken on this.  I can say that I have been in construction and around construction since 1983 and when 230 volt came into play it was usually the hardwood floor sanders who then had to do their magical pigtail connection for their sander.  Other than that, 230 volt is the kiss of death for tool offerings in the arena that the Kapex and CT operate in here in North America. 

Again, respectfully offered.

Peter

 

[DeformedTree]

Think of a few years ago. If Festool USA put out an offer to sell 230V Kapex and a Matching CT, with something like "if we get 100 pre-orders, we will do it".  Pretty sure they would have had no issue selling those here.

Respectfully, I think you are mistaken on this.  I can say that I have been in construction and around construction since 1983 and when 230 volt came into play it was usually the hardwood floor sanders who then had to do their magical pigtail connection for their sander.  Other than that, 230 volt is the kiss of death for tool offerings in the arena that the Kapex and CT operate in here in North America. 

Again, respectfully offered.

Peter

For taking it in the field, I agree.  But for in shops, whole different story.  I think the large high power tools would have had a market.  Kapex, CMS, OF2200, a CT to go with.  There would be takers. There a lot of folks all ready have a shop of 240V tools, so those would fit right in. I know Mafell isn't always the best parallel, but in many respects for this, they are. They sell a lot of their stuff that they sell in the US in 230V. A lot of their tools I would think of as field tools (timber framing stuff), and those are 230V, of course a lot of that is there just is no way to have them in 120V.

When a company all ready has the tool, and it basically comes down to a different cord and stickers. The cost to give it a go is pretty low. And if it means you get to test out the market, without having to spend the money to make a 120V version, it could be worth it.  And hey, could always give Festool a reason to create a really nice systainer based transformer  [big grin]

 

[Crazyraceguy]

I can't disagree with either of you, but I'll defend Woodpecker's here a little bit.  They are going after the DIY market - their one time tools aren't really designed to be things that contractors use hard day after day.

A good number of their OTT's repeat somewhat frequently, and a decent number have turned into permanent offerings.  I think that is them testing the market and then deciding to continue to offer a popular tool. 

Quite a few of those that haven't become permanent are just variations of something that they or someone else has available all the time (a square in a different color, or a straight edge made of different material).  Then there are a bunch of borderline toys that are as much collector's items for enthusiasts as anything.

Woodpecker's isn't Festool or Milwaukee, where the tools are beaten up by professionals every day and need to be able to be replaced or maintained. As you point out, it's largely just CNC'd aluminum - there mostly aren't motors or parts to break.

But I completely understand the aversion to something you can't replace or expand upon.  I certainly wouldn't buy a one time tool track saw, but I don't have a problem with a set of gauge blocks or a precision triangle. (Disclosure: I've never purchased a Woodpecker's One Time Tool).

The only Woodpeckers tool I have is the track saw square. Theirs is the only one that I know of that is angle adjustable. I have browsed through the catalog a few times and there are some interesting things, but the "One Time" thing puts me off in general. I really don't get the listing of retired tools? If it's gone, quit teasing. If it's not gone forever, it's not really "one time" then is it?
I just don't like the idea of having to pay such close attention to what's going on, just to keep from missing something, then never being able to replace it if something happens?
I may not have the need of a "one time" tool when it is being offered, but 2-3-6 months later? Maybe, then what?

 

[DeformedTree]

I just don't like the idea of having to pay such close attention to what's going on, just to keep from missing something, then never being able to replace it if something happens?
I may not have the need of a "one time" tool when it is being offered, but 2-3-6 months later? Maybe, then what?

Ding!  Exactly.  Many/Most/Nearly all folks who use tools don't track this stuff all the time.  When they need something or are looking to a solution, they look for it. If it doesn't exist then, it doesn't matter.

Maybe they think they are making collectables.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

I just don't like the idea of having to pay such close attention to what's going on, just to keep from missing something, then never being able to replace it if something happens?
I may not have the need of a "one time" tool when it is being offered, but 2-3-6 months later? Maybe, then what?

Ding!  Exactly.  Many/Most/Nearly all folks who use tools don't track this stuff all the time.  When they need something or are looking to a solution, they look for it. If it doesn't exist then, it doesn't matter.

Maybe they think they are making collectables.

There must be some kind of market for this business model, because it is apparently working? It's just not for me.

 

[Svar]

I just don't like the idea of having to pay such close attention to what's going on, just to keep from missing something, then never being able to replace it if something happens?
I may not have the need of a "one time" tool when it is being offered, but 2-3-6 months later? Maybe, then what?

Ding!  Exactly.  Many/Most/Nearly all folks who use tools don't track this stuff all the time.  When they need something or are looking to a solution, they look for it. If it doesn't exist then, it doesn't matter.
Maybe they think they are making collectables.

There must be some kind of market for this business model, because it is apparently working? It's just not for me.

Yes, the market is hobbiests with means. People who do woodworking for fun and like to leaf through catalogs. Limited time gives a sense of exclusivity. Nothing wrong with that, different things make us happy. Similar niches exist in automotive, photo, etc. industries.