What gives?

[mino]

The one thing I would add though is about the example of the pro not justifying a $1000 purchase over "only 20 carcases"......why would a pro ever only do 20?

Yeah, metaphor of a kind.
Meant someone with "pro-level-skills" whole already made hundreds+ and is proficient. Someone able to pretty precisely assess tool capabilities as well as having "it in the hand" so he does not need a drill press where a hobby user would be lost without one ...

I am a "pro" hammer user in that sense for historical reasons. So can get nails in materials my colleagues or friends would not even consider attempting. It took a couple tens of pounds of nails over a couple years practice to get there while I was young. Today I should just buy a nail gun, but I just do not need to ... [cool]

 

[DeformedTree]

The one thing I would add though is about the example of the pro not justifying a $1000 purchase over "only 20 carcases"......why would a pro ever only do 20?

Limited edition cabinets. Makes them collectors item  [big grin]

In the end, I think the main point is a pro (one who is doing this for money), will almost always do a business case analysis. Now, this may be 5 seconds of math in their head just to say they did the math, but still. I would say most the time, they can quickly decide if something is worth it. But there will definitively be task that come up rarely, but do come up, where they have a way to do it, might not be the best, but works. Do they see value in the tool that might do it better.  A chainsaw can do a lot, and sometimes do it ok. You won't need to use it often in construction, but there will be times no other tool will get it done.  At the same time, some company in Europe might have a 6000 dollar tool that does that rare task really well...... is it worth it?  A pro will probably say no.  But will there be someone out there with money to burn who might use it just a couple times who buys it, you bet.

 

[DeformedTree]

I also second the "DIY" /which to me always seems almost derogatory/ versus "hobby" demographies.

Here in Czech republic, we have this term "kutil" which is hard to translate.
The concept came about during the communist times where trades were centralized and hard to get. It assumes a concept of doing/making stuff at a better-or-at-least-equivalent quality than a tradesperson would.

It is not really "DYI" (the goal is not to save money) and neither it is "Hobbyist" (the primary goal is not fun) in the US/West sense. Is kinda an amalgamation of both with a bit of "what-if" lets-learn-some-trade aspect when economy goes really bad.

The itch there is to do stuff as efficiently as possible at as high a quality as feasible (so wife/partner will value the work instead of seeing it as a cheapo alternative). This brings it close to a one-man-band pro use case but not quite. The volume is not there and the time budget neither. But capability-wise many such folks are able to produce stuff of an artisan quality, even if not economically.

So I think were you are going is the same as here. And honestly we just don't have a term for it.  But yes, a lot of folks just do all their stuff, it can be pride, some cost savings, hobby, impress the spouse, justify the thing to the spouse, etc.  But also as you touch on, I think a lot of folks in the back of their mind think that they have to tools now to make some money with them too, either as a side job, retirement cash flow, or if they get laid off. You just do it yourself, you don't think of it as being odd/special/etc, it's just what you do.

I'd guess a large portion of those posting here would fall into this category.

 

[rjboch]

I love the direction from my original grumpy post  [laughing] I think most of this conversation is dependent upon the user and what they prefer. For myself, Festool and other tools are about the joy of using a great engineered product and has nothing to do with the cost/benefit or a cheaper big box tool being available. I would guess that many here also buy quality engineered kitchen tools, cars, electronics and also splurge on high-end foods, beer, bourbon, meat, etc… or have some other hobby that results in collecting things (wine, comics, etc.). For me, it’s about the journey and pleasure.

As for type of user, I consider myself a hobbyist and have no desire to expand beyond my own needs to build cabinets, furniture, and remodel my home. My recent dive into the “hobby” and acquisition of way too many Festool items have been to support my desire to rekindle my love of building, as an escape from other aspects of life, a form of meditation, and a preference to build and remodel my home myself. Does it cost more and take longer? Could I hire someone to do it for me? Yes (absolutely), but it’s fun and extremely satisfying to do it myself…and I have never felt so happy. I am pleased that I end up with a high quality build that I know is done right and I also end up with a workshop stocked with everything I need and have a place to hangout for some good alone time.

As a kid and young adult I was in a high school trade program and loved working with my hands, but at the time I was pressured into pursuing a degree since it was viewed as the best path to the middle class. Anyway, long-story short, after many years of sitting behind a desk and working on long-term projects (many years each), I felt something was missing and jumped back into this hobby. I recognize that I am fortunate to be able to drop money on a tool that may not make business sense for some pro’s, but for me it’s a win-win and all about the journey, satisfaction, challenging myself, and experiencing the fun of working with my hands.  I guess, “to each their own”.

 

[Lincoln]

Festo/ol started off down here (Australia) as a pro level tool, and that hasn't changed much. (My first employer bought me their early 'C' shape cordless drill and screw storage systainer, back in the mid 90's. 9.6v, from memory, the battery formed the 'C' shape) 
All advertising etc is aimed at tradespeople. With only one exception that I can think of, they're available at dedicated tool suppliers that cater to the trades. A friend of mine works at a 'premium' Festool dealer and he thinks that the vast majority of sales are to pro's, with a small amount being to home woodworkers - the type that buy EVERY tool released, according to him. All of this also applies to Lamello, though they have a much smaller presence here.
I see a lot of carpenters/joiners using Festool, as well as painters and other specialised trades like solid surface benchtop installers/fabricators. In fact, I'd say it's mainstream now.

 

[Thompmd]

I love the direction from my original grumpy post  [laughing] I think most of this conversation is dependent upon the user and what they prefer. For myself, Festool and other tools are about the joy of using a great engineered product and has nothing to do with the cost/benefit or a cheaper big box tool being available. I would guess that many here also buy quality engineered kitchen tools, cars, electronics and also splurge on high-end foods, beer, bourbon, meat, etc… or have some other hobby that results in collecting things (wine, comics, etc.). For me, it’s about the journey and pleasure.

As for type of user, I consider myself a hobbyist and have no desire to expand beyond my own needs to build cabinets, furniture, and remodel my home. My recent dive into the “hobby” and acquisition of way too many Festool items have been to support my desire to rekindle my love of building, as an escape from other aspects of life, a form of meditation, and a preference to build and remodel my home myself. Does it cost more and take longer? Could I hire someone to do it for me? Yes (absolutely), but it’s fun and extremely satisfying to do it myself…and I have never felt so happy. I am pleased that I end up with a high quality build that I know is done right and I also end up with a workshop stocked with everything I need and have a place to hangout for some good alone time.

As a kid and young adult I was in a high school trade program and loved working with my hands, but at the time I was pressured into pursuing a degree since it was viewed as the best path to the middle class. Anyway, long-story short, after many years of sitting behind a desk and working on long-term projects (many years each), I felt something was missing and jumped back into this hobby. I recognize that I am fortunate to be able to drop money on a tool that may not make business sense for some pro’s, but for me it’s a win-win and all about the journey, satisfaction, challenging myself, and experiencing the fun of working with my hands.  I guess, “to each their own”.

Well said and you essentially described myself. Its all about choices and what makes you smile.

 

[blues]

I love the direction from my original grumpy post  [laughing] I think most of this conversation is dependent upon the user and what they prefer. For myself, Festool and other tools are about the joy of using a great engineered product and has nothing to do with the cost/benefit or a cheaper big box tool being available. I would guess that many here also buy quality engineered kitchen tools, cars, electronics and also splurge on high-end foods, beer, bourbon, meat, etc… or have some other hobby that results in collecting things (wine, comics, etc.). For me, it’s about the journey and pleasure.

As for type of user, I consider myself a hobbyist and have no desire to expand beyond my own needs to build cabinets, furniture, and remodel my home. My recent dive into the “hobby” and acquisition of way too many Festool items have been to support my desire to rekindle my love of building, as an escape from other aspects of life, a form of meditation, and a preference to build and remodel my home myself. Does it cost more and take longer? Could I hire someone to do it for me? Yes (absolutely), but it’s fun and extremely satisfying to do it myself…and I have never felt so happy. I am pleased that I end up with a high quality build that I know is done right and I also end up with a workshop stocked with everything I need and have a place to hangout for some good alone time.

As a kid and young adult I was in a high school trade program and loved working with my hands, but at the time I was pressured into pursuing a degree since it was viewed as the best path to the middle class. Anyway, long-story short, after many years of sitting behind a desk and working on long-term projects (many years each), I felt something was missing and jumped back into this hobby. I recognize that I am fortunate to be able to drop money on a tool that may not make business sense for some pro’s, but for me it’s a win-win and all about the journey, satisfaction, challenging myself, and experiencing the fun of working with my hands.  I guess, “to each their own”.

100%... agreed. Well said.

 

[madjalapeno]

I love the direction from my original grumpy post  [laughing] I think most of this conversation is dependent upon the user and what they prefer. For myself, Festool and other tools are about the joy of using a great engineered product and has nothing to do with the cost/benefit or a cheaper big box tool being available. I would guess that many here also buy quality engineered kitchen tools, cars, electronics and also splurge on high-end foods, beer, bourbon, meat, etc… or have some other hobby that results in collecting things (wine, comics, etc.). For me, it’s about the journey and pleasure.

Same here. I know I will never make the money back I spend on tools, but it's not about that.

I'm an engineer. I design things in CAD, and work to a tolerance. If a tool doesn't give me a repeatable square cut I'll spend hours trying to make it cut square. Sometimes it just refuses to be consistent (looking at you Bosch Miter Saw), in which case I replace it with something better.

But I'm in the fortunate position that I can buy nice tools. And it makes my hobby/DIY experience nicer. I just got a Domino as I'm planning on making a bunch of things that are well suited for it. I could have done it with biscuits and dowels, but I make things to relax. I want to be enjoy the process and be proud of the things I make, and for them to last.

I also know I could sell it easily if I needed too, or found I didn't really like it.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

Agreed, there is some level of being able to afford it in the first place involved here. The amount of money that you could be made with any tool would only count if you had the capitol to buy it.
Then, I get what some of you are saying. After to use your other technique in the mean time, you just stick with it because it works. So at that point, you "justify it" in the opposite way, by saying why spend the money now?
To some degree, I did the same thing for quite a few years too. Part of that was simply working my way up in the trade/company. I started with the necessities and added the things that would make things easier or faster. At some point you develop somewhat of a style or preferred method, generally based on the tools you have.
As some of you know, I work in a big cabinet shop, so I don't get to choose the projects I build. So as new challenges come up, adaptation is required. Several years of that, along with the willingness to invest it doing the job better/easier/faster kind of just progresses into higher end tools, at least it did for me. But, it has taken years to get to that point. I had been doing this job for about 10 years before I took the plunge into a DF500. It was such a game changer for me, but I saw it as such a unique tool that I didn't really think I would ever need any more Festool stuff.  That didn't turn out to be the case. Each addition was based on what it could contribute. Stepping up to a TS55 was a big thing too and it brought me into the "system" as far as using other tools with the tracks.

 

[Cheese]

Just ran across this listing of backordered items, pretty interesting.

Here's the CliffsNotes version:
Most Festool tools are out 10-20 weeks.
The ETS EC sanders are out 24-26 weeks.
The RO sanders are out 24 weeks.
Some of the saw blades are out 20 weeks along with some of the Vlies.

On a personal note, I've had Surfix oil ordered for the last 16 weeks.  [eek]
https://festoolsupply.com/back-ordered-product-report/

 

[GPowers]

With this kind of back order time frames, I can see a lot of dealers losing a LOT of business. How do you stay in business if you have NOTHING to sell?  [crying]

 

[squall_line]

With this kind of back order time frames, I can see a lot of dealers losing a LOT of business. How do you stay in business if you have NOTHING to sell?  [crying]

Who do they lose the business to, though?  If nobody has stock, who do people turn to?  The hardest hit will be the hobbyists who relied on the secondary market for tools, as the demand is creating some really unreasonable prices on used tools (10-20% and more above brand new retail).

Some of the dealers might lose overall revenue but may see increased profit depending on how many customers move to a different brand within the same dealer.

For those who are looking to buy Festool and only Festool, if everyone is in the same boat with backlogs, the first to get a shipment might see a bump in sales, but I would imagine it would eventually reach parity again.

 

[rjboch]

I think it also partially explains the great interest in the Recon site. It is now the best place to get a tool if you need it now (and you luck out grabbing it while available). For example, I was on a slight backorder for a vecturo set and when it popped up this morning I grabbed it and then canceled my order for a new tool. If I did not need the tool soon I would have happily waited (like the ETS EC 150/3 sander I have been waiting since Dec for).

 

[Coen]

With this kind of back order time frames, I can see a lot of dealers losing a LOT of business. How do you stay in business if you have NOTHING to sell?  [crying]

Who do they lose the business to, though?  If nobody has stock, who do people turn to? 

For an individuel business in the short term it doesn't matter if the total market volume decreases or if they lost market share to another business. The bottom line is the same; less sales.

Now, it's a debate between ... is the supply lower, or the demand higher. From what I 'know'... it's both.

 

[mino]

Not sure how in US, but over here pro tool shops make the most on consumables, services etc. The retail tool sales are just the cherries on top.

Consumers buy tools generally elsewhere, mostly in hobby markets or online. They go to pro shops only for a bit of consumables at the best of cases.

Then bigger businesses usually have B2B arrangements with their dealers where profits from tool sales are even less. They kinda use the dealers for logistics so they get stuff without waiting and do not need to stock up much. The dealer stocks for them for the commission.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

Because of the price fixing thing, it doesn't really matter where I get the actual tools from, it's the same either way. I tend toward two local places, partly to support local, partly because one of them will deliver to me for free along with the other supplies we get from them. Also because of this local factor, they will often discount other brands on the same order.
But, I have gotten things from other sources since availability has gotten spotty lately.