Why????? Cost of internet in US vs. other countries

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Saw the same article. I'm afraid the ensuing conversation would turn too political. It is a bit depressing for those of us on this side of the pond.
 
I can see some Americans taking offense to the government funded infrastructure (no offense on my part intended) but increasing competition to reduce rates? Tell me you lot are happy with the limited choices there. We've something similar in corruption (as i see it) up here in sunny Canada.
 
Interesting.... just saw it on another site...now here....

Regulation works.... as it can create competition. Lack of regs create problems.

Watch the video...

Cheers,
Steve
 
Always made sense to me that competition is better then government regulations. Same story with cell phones, remember when there were cell phone providers all over the place.
 
I'm gonna try really hard not to be political, but I do have some personal experience to share.  I've been on both sides of the standards issues.  I worked for a Fortune 10 company and represented them in standards/regulations setting groups.  Many years later I worked for the Federal Government in a couple of regulatory agencies.

My experience was that the private sector companies had way more input into what the regs would say than the public did (by a couple of powers of ten).  Not necessarily a bad thing, but in my standards committees, the company's input was usually shortsighted and trying to achieve some kind of competitive advantage - not to make a standard that would benefit the public.  A lot of technical possibilities were 'dumbed down' to please a company with some political clout, overuling the scientific/engineering arguments.

And frankly, the regulatory agencies are beholden to the regulated companies.  If you push them more than they want to be pushed, you get serious pressure from the hill very quickly.  A lot of the regulators plan to retire and then go to work for the regulated, so they are not about to do anything that might offend anyone...

We were often embarrassed when meeting with our European counterparts who seemed somehow able to keep the science and technology at the forefront.

OK, end of rant.  Thanks for listening.  I feel better.
 
I will take a different tack.  Comparing the US to other smaller countries in a conversation where infrastructure has to be installed at a considerable cost, the cost and return on investment has also got to be a part of the equation.  The cost to install fiber optic in Texas and connect every household would have to be equivalent to how many European or Scandinavian countries?  And then based on statistics, how would that influence the graphs for the entire US or NA versus a single smaller country.

I am lucky beyond expression.  Somehow, in the middle of a bankruptcy proceeding, the cable provider in my area installed fiber optic to my house.  And I live in an area where one acre lots are the smallest allowed.  Most are 5 acres or more.  Talk about cost.

The competitors advertise plans, but because they they did not invest the money on the infrastructure, their performance is not the same.

My post has nothing to do with politics at all.  It is all about having a wallet in my back pocket and wanting to do many things based on what is inside that wallet and comparing it to what a company might do and why.

Peter

 
$56 for cable, phone and faster internet?!?!?!?!?!?!?! a month!?!?!?!?
That was my directv bill before I canceled it! I wish our country could be more progressive in area's like this [unsure]

Man, I can't get over how cheap that is. We have 2 major cable providers here (and 2 dish) and I just won't pay $60+ for TV! Guess that's the true Dutchman in me [wink]

Besides, there probably is something else to be done anyway.
 
I have always taken offense at paying more for cable and internet than I do for electric.  I posted the video on facebook to share with others.
 
About $120 a month for upgraded 20Mbps cable internet service + HD cable (about 200 channels) and 1 HD DVR. No home phone, we just have cell service now. Cha-ching. I won't even get into the cell phone bill.  [eek]

After my bandwidth sucking, unlimited-data-plan-cell-phone-service children move out I'll be rich.  [tongue] Ha!

The grass is always greener on the other side. In the US, we enjoy certain perks. With Independence Day upon us, we should focus on what we have rather than what we don't.
 
Shane Holland said:
The grass is always greener on the other side. In the US, we enjoy certain perks. With Independence Day upon us, we should focus on what we have rather than what we don't.

I disagree, if that was the mentality over 200 hundred years ago by a group of persons (you know them )then July 4th wouldn't exist.
 
australia has that same monopoly problem too.
very interesting video.
thanks for sharing.

justin.
 
I thought I might just rub it in a little more!  In the post it says broadband cost as little as $6 in the UK but in the UK you can get FREE broadband.    My girlfriend as a mobile contract and the mobile contract comes with benefits which they dont seem to point out and my girlfriend didnt know about it but I knew and asked if she was claiming her FREE broadband from here contract and she said no!  I told her to cancel her current broadband which was £16 a month and within a week she had her free broadband up and running.

JMB
 
I also have a little expertise in this area--back in '93 I published a peer-reviewed scholarly article on the way the US law of monopoly would apply to high-speed internet firms.  (It starts at vol. 38, p. 571 of the Villanova Law Review, if anyone needs something guaranteed to put them to sleep.)  IMO, the key info of the engadget.com article was this:  "Not government spending. The UK's administration hasn't invested a penny in broadband infrastructure, and most of the network in the Netherlands has been built with private capital.  *    *    *  The game-changer in these two European countries has been government regulators who have forced more competition in the market for broadband."  The article is correct in saying that competition will cause prices to drop or quality to increase or both, but it's incorrect when it says that competition is, or can be, achieved by government regulation, at least not if the object is to increase the benefit to the consumer.  Why not?

Certain technologies or services can develop into "natural monopolies."  A natural monopoly exists if economies of scale (i.e., a bigger firm) result in savings, such that one firm can supply the market at a lower cost than more than one firm.  In the past (and even in the present in some areas of the US), firms that supplied electrical power and clean water were natural monopolies.  A government can deal with a natural monopoly  either by granting a monopoly to a private firm and regulating it, or by starting a government-run firm that is, by definition, regulated by the government.  (Here in the US, various states and cities in the late 1800s and early 1900s tried one or the other approach for electrical generation and clean water supply.)  Often, however, as technology improves over time, costs drop to the point where a competing firm can enter the market and deliver the same service at a lower price than the monopoly firm.  That has happened in many areas with cable TV and is beginning to happen with electrical power supply, too.

Nevertheless, if the technology is at a stage in which a given geographic market truly is a "natural monopoly," then regulations designed to increase competition can only make prices rise or quality fall or both.  If the technology is such that multiple companies can compete within a geographic region without driving each other out of business, then the abnormally-high profit enjoyed by a firm that has a monopoly will draw competitors into the market, and no "regulation" is necessary to make that happen.  What about the breakup of the old Bell Telephone monopoly in the US?  The monopoly was made possible (economical) by federal statute and regulations, and the monopoly was finally "broken up" when the technology changed enough that neither the monopoly nor the government regulators that worked in cahoots with it could continue to hide from the consumer the reality that telecommunications was no longer a natural monopoly.  The most effective thing the government did to "break up" the monopoly was to get rid of the statute and regulations that made it possible for Bell Tel to maintain a monopoly in the first place.

Readers can see the ignorance (absurdity?) of the author of the engadget.com article in the final three paragraphs.  Canals and railroads are classic examples of activities/technologies that are natural monopolies.  The fundamental assumption of the article, however, is that broadband internet service technology no longer creates a natural monopoly, else competition wouldn't reduce prices or improve quality for the consumer.
 
John Stevens said:
...but it's incorrect when it says that competition is, or can be, achieved by government regulation, at least not if the object is to increase the benefit to the consumer.  Why not?

...A government can deal with a natural monopoly  either by granting a monopoly to a private firm and regulating it....

But, in the case of BT, the advent of competition was acheived by government regulation - the government (via the regulator) forced BT to allow other companies to use BT's infrastructure (the copper).

John Stevens said:
Readers can see the ignorance (absurdity?) of the author of the engadget.com article in the final three paragraphs.  Canals and railroads are classic examples of activities/technologies that are natural monopolies.  The fundamental assumption of the article, however, is that broadband internet service technology no longer creates a natural monopoly, else competition wouldn't reduce prices or improve quality for the consumer.

True, a railroad is a great example of a natural monopoly. Once the railroads are in place, the company that owns them can run a railroad far cheaper than a competitor, who would need to lay their own track. But force the railroad company to allow it's competitors to use it's track, and the natural monopoly is no more. That's what happened with BT.
 
you don't have to have cable tv.

My fios is a city utility now, way cheaper then the cable company.

Now if I could just get rid of the dang cell phones, I could buy more wood working machinery.
 
jonny round boy said:
But, in the case of BT, the advent of competition was acheived by government regulation - the government (via the regulator) forced BT to allow other companies to use BT's infrastructure....
[snip]
True, a railroad is a great example of a natural monopoly. Once the railroads are in place, the company that owns them can run a railroad far cheaper than a competitor, who would need to lay their own track. But force the railroad company to allow it's competitors to use it's track, and the natural monopoly is no more. That's what happened with BT.

Let's think that one through.  By definition, a natural monopoly cannot be broken into smaller pieces without a loss of efficiency, which in turn results in higher prices.  So either BT was not a natural monopoly at any stage of production, or it is a natural monopoly at one or more stages, and now it and its "competitors" are all using the "essential facility" that constitutes the natural monopoly.  So how would the latter situation look?  Use your railroad analogy:  competitors who own different trains can't run them at the same time on the same track.  So each is given either a monopoly either on a certain portion of the track at all times, or a monopoly on all portions of the track, but only during certain times.  It's no different with broadband, because the network can only carry a finite amount of signal.  Hence, the monopoly profit remains, it's only divided between more firms, and the consumer still pays the higher monopoly price in the absence of direct regulation of price.  That cannot have been the case if prices decreased and the only regulation forced on BT was the granting of access to an "essential facility."  [EDIT:  this paragraph assumes no "vertical integration."  I didn't want to get into that because of the additional complication, but as I thought more about this post, I decided I should at least mention the assumption in order to explain the apparent contradiction between this paragraph and the last.]

Having ruled out the latter situation, let's turn to the former, i.e., that BT wasn't a natural monopoly at any stage of production.  I added bold font to your quotation above to emphasize that the government used its monopoly in force to coerce BT into making a deal on terms that it would not have agreed to voluntarily.  If you're correct, then the government changed a monopoly into a cartel (BT's facilities can only handle a finite number of other companies).  And prices decreased significantly as a result of the change from monopoly to cartel?  Sounds unlikely--my hunch is that the story is factually inaccurate, in that direct regulation of price is still happening--but let's put that disagreement aside for a moment and think about a bigger problem over the long term.

When governments use force to artificially decrease the rate of return of a company like BT, investors take note and put their money elsewhere.  As time goes on, internet companies in countries whose governments behave like that can't attract as much investment as they would otherwise.  Today the consumer benefits, but in the long run, the consumer suffers as the amount of capital available for maintenance and improvements is less than it otherwise would have been.  Moreover, each time the government is called back to review and adjust the terms of the compulsory "deal," it raises the risk of dictating a course of action that reduces efficiency.  After all, how is it that the government knows what the price of access "should" be?  Finally, it increases the risk of corruption.  How much bribery--disguised as campaign contributions, junkets, gifts, etc.--does it take for BT's would-be competitors to induce regulators to (ab)use the power of their offices to BT's detriment?

The irony is that it's unnecessary for the government to coerce a business relationship--regardless of whether BT had a natural monopoly at any stage of production--because if a would-be competitor is able to perform one or more stages of production at a higher efficiency than BT, the competitor would be able to offer BT a price for access to the essential or non-essential facility that shares between them the "extra profit" realized by the increased efficiency.  That type of agreement could be replicated by as many firms as BT's facility could accommodate, and in those circumstances the consumer would enjoy the benefit of competition at that stage or stages of production, no government coercion required.  [EDIT:  this paragraph assumes the monopolist is vertically integrated.]

Regards,

John
 
As I suspected, this thread is going to get political and probably result in a heated debate. I'm going to lock the thread. Thanks for understanding.

Now, back to talking about woodworking...
 
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