Yes, it's another DF-500 vs DF-700 thread...

[cliffp]

I have a DF500 and love it. I haven't had a desire yet to use bigger dominos so haven't yet had to consider the dilemma (the Seneca adapters weren't available when I bought my machine). Why not buy the DF700 and experiment with it to see if it will do everything you want in an acceptable way ergonomically (this is obviously a subjective judgement). If it does, you keep it, if not, you can exchange it within the 15 day trial period. There is of course the issue of the Seneca adapters you would need to get to use it for small Dominos. Maybe you could borrow one of these adapters or conduct some kind of experiment to go through the motions of using it on a small project (ie use slightly bigger dominos than you would actually use but at least experience the ergonomics of using the bigger tool with its different handles on relatively small components).

 

[sploo]

I debated this myself.

I opted for the 500 since I don't have an immediate need for the 700 size.  In all I have done with the 500, I love it.  I think that the 700 would seem a little bulky for cabinet construction.  My two cents.

The money savings helped too.

I'm hoping to get my grubby mitts on both models tomorrow to try, so with luck I'll really like the DF-700 ergonomics, and really dislike the DF-500  ;D

Money saving? It's a fair argument, but from my point of view, the DF-500 pricing is "Aaarrgh" and the DF-700 is "Aaaaarrgh". Either way I'm going to walk out of the shop feeling violated, so I might as well feel I paid for the right assault 

I have a DF500 and love it. I haven't had a desire yet to use bigger dominos so haven't yet had to consider the dilemma (the Seneca adapters weren't available when I bought my machine). Why not buy the DF700 and experiment with it to see if it will do everything you want in an acceptable way ergonomically (this is obviously a subjective judgement). If it does, you keep it, if not, you can exchange it within the 15 day trial period. There is of course the issue of the Seneca adapters you would need to get to use it for small Dominos. Maybe you could borrow one of these adapters or conduct some kind of experiment to go through the motions of using it on a small project (ie use slightly bigger dominos than you would actually use but at least experience the ergonomics of using the bigger tool with its different handles on relatively small components).

I suspect I'll struggle to find someone with the adaptor. RTS-500 owner in the South Oxfordshire, UK area anyone?

Looking at the individual price of the DF-500 bits, it would probably make most sense to buy the pack with the various tenons and all the bits, then sell the 8 and 10mm bits. Obviously that's another cost on top of the DF-700 (and the adaptor).

For the DF-500 owners - ignoring the 8 and 10mm bits (which the DF-700 also has) do you find yourself using the 4, 5, or 6mm bit  more often? I think I'd definitely get the 6mm, as it could be useful for mortising long 6mm slots for making jigs (I tend to use a lot of 6mm machine screws for jigs). I'm just wondering how often you really need the 5 and 4mm bits - i.e. can you get away with 6mm tenons for edge joints in 12mm ply?

 

[Grasshopper]

I use the 6mm bit on my DF500 the most.  Smaller ply the 5mm bit is helpful.  For cabinet joinery, I like the 6x40mm tenon.  Feels pretty solid.

My two cents.

 

[JBird]

For the DF-500 owners - ignoring the 8 and 10mm bits (which the DF-700 also has) do you find yourself using the 4, 5, or 6mm bit  more often?

4,5,6 are the primary sizes used for joining 1/2 and 3/4 sheets. 6mm for 3/4 obviously and 4 or 5 for 1/2 depending on if I need the extra length of the 5mm. So the one you use more often will be dependent on which size sheets you use more often in your projects.

I think I'd definitely get the 6mm, as it could be useful for mortising long 6mm slots for making jigs (I tend to use a lot of 6mm machine screws for jigs). I'm just wondering how often you really need the 5 and 4mm bits - i.e. can you get away with 6mm tenons for edge joints in 12mm ply?

I would not want to use the 6mm for 12mm ply but it would work. The rule of thumb is the domino should be 1/3 the thickness. As the domino gets thicker proportionally it becomes even more important that the mortise is placed more precisely in the center of the boards thickness. For instance, if you are off on centering your mortise by 1mm in 12 mm sheet using a 6mm domino then you will have only 2 mm remaining sheet thickness on one side (4 on the other). As it gets thinner the strength of the joint is compromised.

 

[jeffkutsch]

I have used both, and bought the 700. I almost exclusively use the 6mm bit and the Seneca adapter, and mostly putting 3/4x1.5 edging on 3/4 hardwood ply shelves faces for strength. For me it was about the 6 fence paddles/pins, as well as the ergonomics. I just prefer the D-handle. I use the 6x40 dominoes, which means 15 mm in the facing and 25mm deep in the shelf stock. It's a bitch when forgetting to adjust the depth back to 15mm. Only ruined on piece of stock so far.

1/2 in Baltic birch ply is another matter. Have not tried to use a 4 or 5 on the adapter, and setting up for centering on the thinner stuff might be a little unwieldy. 

 

[kevin clifford]

I have had the 500 for a few years now and have yet to find a job that it wasn't going to work for. Like every other addict on this site if I do find a reason to own both I gladly will, but thus far it hasn't been needed.

 

[Ed Bray]

For the DF-500 owners - ignoring the 8 and 10mm bits (which the DF-700 also has) do you find yourself using the 4, 5, or 6mm bit  more often? I think I'd definitely get the 6mm, as it could be useful for mortising long 6mm slots for making jigs (I tend to use a lot of 6mm machine screws for jigs). I'm just wondering how often you really need the 5 and 4mm bits - i.e. can you get away with 6mm tenons for edge joints in 12mm ply?

I have actually used the 4mm Bit/Dominos quite a lot. I have used them to fix the back of drawers (in 10mm material), small face frames (again in 10mm material) and for small picture frames. It was the bit I checked first with the Seneca Adapter, as if I could not use that as required I would have had to keep the DF500 as well as the bigger machine. Fortunately it worked well so had no qualms about losing the DF500. I would also not discount the 5mm size as it is the recommended sized Domino for 3/4" stock as opposed to the traditional 6mm.

Don't get me wrong, there is a work-around that need to be taken into account when using the 4mm cutter on the DF700XL/Seneca adapter in thin material, you either have to make a small collar to prevent the plunge action going too deep or use a shim between the face of the machine and the work (this is also the case if you want to only plunge say 7mm into 10mm thick stock even when using the DF500). I have used both methods and both work okay with little issue.

From my own perception and with the benefit of hindsight, I would have been better off buying the DF700XL from the beginning along with all three systainers of Bits/Dominos (4-10mm, 8/10mm & 12/14mm) along with the Seneca Adapter. This is because having both allowed me to try them out in similar materials 3/4 ply, Iroko, Beech and Pine and I found that I preferred the ergonomics of the bigger machine along with the push in pins for registration, but then, I am not making 100s of cuts on a daily basis so the weight issue did not have a bearing for me and the option for bigger and deeper joints when I need them sealed it for me.

Cost is a major factor, from FFX the DF700XL is £768 with the 3x systainers running at £106, £120 and £136 plus Circa £100 for the Seneca adapter and Domishims totalling £1220, a not insignificant outlay.

The DF500 on the other hand is £567 and 4/10mm Systainer is £136 giving a total of £698.50 (with postage discount) so more than £500 less.

Neither of the above outfits include the Cross stop, Trim Stop or Handrail Fence which would cost an additional circa £100 (fit both DF500 or DF700XL.

Just so you know though, buying the DF500 kit from FFX (includes cross stop and trim stop) is £635 whilst buying them all from FFX separately costs £627.50 (including postage discounts)

From Powertool Supplies the costs are similar give or take a few £10s.

 

[Stephen B]

[size=14pt]

I think this discussion can be summarised as -

Some men have big tools, others have small tools.
Often the ones with the small tools are just more creative! [big grin]

 

[Ed Bray]

You didn't mention that those with big tools might be overcompensating  [unsure]

 

[sploo]

Very useful replies above - many thanks (and good arguments either way).

Ed - thanks for the link to FFX and powertool supplies - much better prices than I'd resigned myself to paying (I was thinking the DF-700 plus D8/10 assortment would set me back ~£1k). It looks as though I'd be able to get them, the trim stop, and the DF-500 bits + tenon assortment for that sort of cash. Add the RTS-500 and I'll be sorted (I'd probably make my own 12mm tenons if required).

You didn't mention that those with big tools might be overcompensating  [unsure]

Yea, but they've still only got 14mm bits  ;D

 

[sploo]

I finally got chance to check out the two models in the flesh. I must admit I was expecting more of a "wow" factor, given the extortionate pricing. Some of the plastic controls feel a bit flimsy to me, but overall the plunge on both was good. If you'd told me they were (decent) Chinese made tools at half the price I wouldn't have disagreed, but I guess you're partly paying for the "Made in Germany" sticker. Let's hope the build quality is a match.

The DF-700 is certainly noticeably heavier, but it's leagues ahead in terms of ergonomics for me; I found the DF-500 quite cumbersome to hold, and I really didn't like the position of the power switch. I also like the retractable pins on the DF-700 fence.

The previous best price for the DF-700 with D8/10 cutters & tenons I'd seen was £934 from D&M tools. I got all that, plus the trim stop, from FFX this morning for twenty quid less (there's discount if buying multiple items).

FFX didn't have the DF500 cutter and tenon set, so I've just ordered that from powertool-supplies, and the RTS-500 from Seneca.

I haven't gone for the Domishims. I suspect I'll need them (or something like them) but I might be able to mill something appropriate myself once I've better understood my needs.

Cross fingers most of it will turn up tomorrow. When I'm in. And the wife's out [wink]

 

[Ed Bray]

Enjoy it, I'm sure you will.

I've just been playing with my TS-55 and rails that came yesterday. A bit disappointed that the dust collection isn't as good as that on the Dominos  [sad] I now have 2 hours to clear up the front room before my wife gets home  [scared]

 

[sploo]

Enjoy it, I'm sure you will.

I've just been playing with my TS-55 and rails that came yesterday. A bit disappointed that the dust collection isn't as good as that on the Dominos  [sad] I now have 2 hours to clear up the front room before my wife gets home  [scared]

Thanks!

Front room? Errr. I don't think I'd use any big dust producing tool outside of the garage (or outside). Though I once did a major renovation of the hall and landing - cutting away a lot of old wood battens and plasterboard with a circular saw, but that was completely sealed off from the rest of house (and took days to clean)!

 

[Ed Bray]

Enjoy it, I'm sure you will.

I've just been playing with my TS-55 and rails that came yesterday. A bit disappointed that the dust collection isn't as good as that on the Dominos  [sad] I now have 2 hours to clear up the front room before my wife gets home  [scared]

Thanks!

Front room? Errr. I don't think I'd use any big dust producing tool outside of the garage (or outside). Though I once did a major renovation of the hall and landing - cutting away a lot of old wood battens and plasterboard with a circular saw, but that was completely sealed off from the rest of house (and took days to clean)!

Wait till you use the Domino, I got absolutely zero dust from the DF500 when used with dust extraction (except for the couple of times I forgot to plug the hose back in after a bit change) and just a minute amount from the DF700XL when used similarly and only then from deeper cuts. The dust extraction on the Dominos is amazing.

When I sold the DF500 I demoed it to the buyer in my front room, you should have seen his face when he saw that I was going to use it in there, seconds later he was blown away by the fact that there is no visible dust from its use.

At the moment I use the Dining Room for small scale woodworking (no soft furnishings and laminate floor and the garage is too cold) but I have just painted some cast iron bench ends with Hammerite for a three seater garden bench I am making and didn't want any dust in there. Still, lesson learnt, TS-55 not in front room.  [embarassed]

 

[sploo]

Wait till you use the Domino, I got absolutely zero dust from the DF500 when used with dust extraction (except for the couple of times I forgot to plug the hose back in after a bit change) and just a minute amount from the DF700XL when used similarly and only then from deeper cuts. The dust extraction on the Dominos is amazing.

When I sold the DF500 I demoed it to the buyer in my front room, you should have seen his face when he saw that I was going to use it in there, seconds later he was blown away by the fact that there is no visible dust from its use.

At the moment I use the Dining Room for small scale woodworking (no soft furnishings and laminate floor and the garage is too cold) but I have just painted some cast iron bench ends with Hammerite for a three seater garden bench I am making and didn't want any dust in there. Still, lesson learnt, TS-55 not in front room.  [embarassed]

I'd be very wary of that; the visible dust isn't the stuff you want to worry about, it's the really tiny stuff that affects your lungs. It also hangs in the air for absolutely ages (because it's so small). It's great to hear the extraction on the Dominos is good, as it means less clean up of the garage/back yard, but I'll still be wearing a powered dust mask (a Trend Airshield).

 

[jeffkutsch]

The DF-700 is certainly noticeably heavier, but it's leagues ahead in terms of ergonomics for me; I found the DF-500 quite cumbersome to hold, and I really didn't like the position of the power switch. I also like the retractable pins on the DF-700 fence.

I haven't gone for the Domishims. I suspect I'll need them (or something like them) but I might be able to mill something appropriate myself once I've better understood my needs.

Cross fingers most of it will turn up tomorrow. When I'm in. And the wife's out [wink]

My thoughts exactly... on all three counts!  BTW, 6mm holes 25mm deep or greater: the 700xl/ct 36 leaves a little dust in the bottom.

hope you enjoy it as much as I do..

Cheers

 

[sploo]

My thoughts exactly... on all three counts!  BTW, 6mm holes 25mm deep or greater: the 700xl/ct 36 leaves a little dust in the bottom.

hope you enjoy it as much as I do..

Cheers

Thanks Jeff!

They've turned up today (though obviously not the adapter, as that's got to come across the pond). I've not run the machine yet, but I assume the shop one I saw had taken some abuse, as the plastic switches are much more solid on mine (hope they stay that way).

[TR]So... as I'm now a Festool owner, does that make me a better woodworker than all those paupers without? [big grin] [embarassed][/TR]

On a more sensible note (and a question for guys with the 1/2" and 3/4" Domi-Shims), I assume they're 5.475mm and 8.65mm thick respectively (the right amount to shim a 15mm fence setting down to the center line of 1/2" and 3/4" stock)? I'm just trying to get an understanding of the amount they'll actually shim the fence, to know whether they'll be useful with the sheet stock I get.

 

[Ed Bray]

My thoughts exactly... on all three counts!  BTW, 6mm holes 25mm deep or greater: the 700xl/ct 36 leaves a little dust in the bottom.

hope you enjoy it as much as I do..

Cheers

Thanks Jeff!

They've turned up today (though obviously not the adapter, as that's got to come across the pond). I've not run the machine yet, but I assume the shop one I saw had taken some abuse, as the plastic switches are much more solid on mine (hope they stay that way).

[TR]So... as I'm now a Festool owner, does that make me a better woodworker than all those paupers without? [big grin] [embarassed][/TR] Not necessarily better, but definitely feeling superior

On a more sensible note (and a question for guys with the 1/2" and 3/4" Domi-Shims), I assume they're 5.475mm and 8.65mm thick respectively (the right amount to shim a 15mm fence setting down to the center line of 1/2" and 3/4" stock)? I'm just trying to get an understanding of the amount they'll actually shim the fence, to know whether they'll be useful with the sheet stock I get.

I'll measure mine tomorrow with digital callipers.

 

[sploo]

My thoughts exactly... on all three counts!  BTW, 6mm holes 25mm deep or greater: the 700xl/ct 36 leaves a little dust in the bottom.

hope you enjoy it as much as I do..

Cheers

Thanks Jeff!

They've turned up today (though obviously not the adapter, as that's got to come across the pond). I've not run the machine yet, but I assume the shop one I saw had taken some abuse, as the plastic switches are much more solid on mine (hope they stay that way).

[TR]So... as I'm now a Festool owner, does that make me a better woodworker than all those paupers without? [big grin] [embarassed][/TR] Not necessarily better, but definitely feeling superior

On a more sensible note (and a question for guys with the 1/2" and 3/4" Domi-Shims), I assume they're 5.475mm and 8.65mm thick respectively (the right amount to shim a 15mm fence setting down to the center line of 1/2" and 3/4" stock)? I'm just trying to get an understanding of the amount they'll actually shim the fence, to know whether they'll be useful with the sheet stock I get.

I'll measure mine tomorrow with digital callipers.

LOL. Sadly the truth is that I'm still an amateur bodger with too little skill to cut a cut mortice and tenon, and too little time to practice. Hence the Domino is for me a time saving device; albeit one that should allow home projects to get done more quickly, as opposed to there being a commercial element. It's an expensive tool for a hobbyist, but with a family these days I get little time, and my first planned project is to make some sort of fence/guard for our ladder type bathroom radiator, so the little one doesn't burn herself on it (just started to crawl in the last few weeks, so is into everything, everywhere).

EDIT: I've just realised that your "I'll measure mine tomorrow with digital callipers" was in reference to the Domi-Shims (many thanks) and not a crude gag in relation to being superior to other guys. My mind is a sewer sometimes  ;D

 

[Ed Bray]

Okay,

Domishims measure

3/4" Domishim measures 5.9mm
1/2" Domishim measures 9.15mm

In use, both require the fence to be set at 15mm to work correctly.

Hope this helps, Eddie.