2 different Festool power cords.???

[AlexThePalex]

Thru this thread, going back to the 2 cord sizes, it goes back to there being no reason for the smaller gauge cord, was festool just trying to get to a smaller wire size because they thought that was better?

Hmm, you just wrote a whole essay to justify all your different wire gauges, and when Festool has two for their cords it's suddenly bad?  Or does that fit within your argumentation that Eurpeans do electricity all wrong?  Festool's just trying to adapt to the American market. That's why you get two, and we poor Europeans just get one to keep it simple for us. [wink]  [poke]

 

[semenza]

Hmm, you just wrote a whole essay to justify all your different wire gauges, and when Festool has two for their cords it's suddenly bad?  Or does that fit within your argumentation that Eurpeans do electricity all wrong?  Festool's just trying to adapt to the American market. That's why you get two, and we poor Europeans just get one to keep it simple for us. [wink]  [poke]

Except there is no  good  reason to have to use two different cords to  adapt  to the US market.  The single heavier gauge would do the job. And if the lighter gauge had never existed here, very few if any users would even be thinking or talking about it.

It is just dumb, regardless of the true reason.

Seth

 

[FestitaMakool]

Thru this thread, going back to the 2 cord sizes, it goes back to there being no reason for the smaller gauge cord, was festool just trying to get to a smaller wire size because they thought that was better?

Hmm, you just wrote a whole essay to justify all your different wire gauges, and when Festool has two for their cords it's suddenly bad?  Or does that fit within your argumentation that Eurpeans do electricity all wrong?  Festool's just trying to adapt to the American market. That's why you get two, and we poor Europeans just get one to keep it simple for us. [wink]  [poke]

Yup, we only got one, but if we had to have two, that would have been ok too.

Let me give you an example:
Some yrs back I was in the parent group in my boys’ kindergarten, and this particular day we were preparing the kids’ celebration of our national day, right there in the kindergartens kitchen.
We were heating water in a very large pan in order to serve sausages (Hot Dogs) I stood at the  range with my back to the other (adults..) who prepared hot water in water boilers to be poured into the large pan when boiling. That’s was ok, until someone thought that 3 boilers works faster.. I suddenly smelled danger; a unmistakable smell of burning plastic from behind me. I quickly turned around and started to move people chatting and not paying attention to what was happening. I soon saw three 2000W+ boilers hooked in series on a short 3 socket extension with wiring meant for a fraction of the load it now carried. The lead just below the receptacle on the wall was dripping plastic from its outer shield... I immediately shouted for people to move away, and carefully pinched two fingers around the socket and carefully pulled it out slowly (same as our Euro socket for Festool here, ungrounded) (these water kettles has ground (Shuko) - and shall not be used on non ground receptacles). It was a very, very close call before someone had touched the wire. I probably saved someone’s health of some kind that day.
But, what was maybe the worst, only one of maybe 6 persons realised the danger. The rest went; oh, ok, and moved on - one even trying to put another of the same poor extensions to replace the one that melted. I just said no!, just put the lead from the kettle directly into the wall receptacle.

So, yeah. If someone directs a proper cord, that’s all ok.  [wink]
But, FT could have supplied only one cord. But it’s probably a matter of cost - as the the thinnest might be similar or the same as the euro cord, but not the end plug.

 

[mino]

And not using conduit means a big PITA when something breaks down. Sadly, the NL norm was weakened to be more in line with Ze Germans to allow for cable in plaster...

I really should not got more in this thread, but you are not correct with the "embed in plaster/concrete/masonry" being allowed or even preferred for cost/simplicity reason. I though so first too, but the reason is actually coming from the safety/reliability side. The embedded cables are harder to service, but the embedding is supposed to ensure they never (think hundreds of years) need to be serviced in the first place.

The thing is that a cable placed directly -inside- an inflammable full /not hollow/ wall like concrete or masonry is BETTER and SAFER than anything else. This is because the cable is fully supported, had high-efficiency contact cooling and even should the cable fill decompose over a couple hundred years the mere fact the cable cannot (physically) move will ensure it will still work "as new".

And about the standard you are actually wrong.
There are special installation rules about electric installations over flammable materials. These are still valid in a brick house with embedded cabling, they just do not apply logically.

Sure, they are in the same standard, but my point was that many new as well as old installations in Europe (I am liberal in "Europe", not talking Czech only) simply do not/did not need higher "gauges" as firstly the higher voltage means about 1/4 the heat generation at same appliance power and secondly, if your cable is literally embedded in inflammable material which is a heat-conductor like masonry is, heat becomes a non-issue. One simply designs for impedance.

---

We need to keep in mind that standard are here NOT to make money for copper producers. There are here to set a MINIMUM requirement that fulfills the function and is safe. This is always a balance. US installs are skewed in the "safer voltage" which allows unprotected bare wires in NEAM plugs etc. But pay with a much higher installation material costs and/or higher fire risks. These days (think last 100 years or so) it is only the higher costs.

European installs go more for the efficiency side which gives a generally simpler/cheaper (materially) installs and appliances. Then this is compensated by fully-protected plugs and additional safety precautions. Today this works out very well.

Overall, the 230V/400V 3-phase system IS superior on the pure technical/efficiency level. This is as simple as it gets as physics is a b*** and does not leave room for interpretation.

BUT, when we look at the overall solution to the problem - "how to deliver power to the point of consumption" - then NEITHER system is superior as both take different trade-offs to achieve the same general level of service and safety.

This was not so in the past, but is today. Especially with ubiquitous fully grounded installs with no PEN and RCDs being prevalent even where not mandated.

I would argue, that the 110V/240V system WAS superior on the safety side up until about the 50s/60s when the actual protection measures we have today were either not available or were not mandated.

Today, the safety aspect is a non-issue on either system which leaves the efficiency only and slants the weights in direction of the 230/400 system.

My (last) 2 cents.

 

[AlexThePalex]

Except there is no  good  reason to have to use two different cords to  adapt  to the US market.  The single heavier gauge would do the job. And if the lighter gauge had never existed here, very few if any users would even be thinking or talking about it.

It is just dumb, regardless of the true reason.

Yeah, I know Seth, I was just poking a bit of fun at DeformedTree's defense of the American system as more diverse while to me it seems unnecessarily complicated, just like the thing with the two Festool cords. Maybe it can be done, but sometimes you have to ask why you should? Too complicated is not always a benefit.

I soon saw three 2000W+ boilers hooked in series on a short 3 socket extension with wiring meant for a fraction of the load it now carried. The lead just below the receptacle on the wall was dripping plastic from its outer shield...

But, FT could have supplied only one cord. But it’s probably a matter of cost - as the the thinnest might be similar or the same as the euro cord, but not the end plug.

I thought you had more or less the same 220 volt system as in Germany and Holland. Your breaker should never allow a pull of 6000+ watts. A 16 amp breaker on 220 only allowes a maximum of around 3600 watt. Something was seriously wrong with that system there.

As for the cord, I don't get it either. That little bit of extra coper in the cord should be of no significance. Like, a few cents on a $400 tool.

 

[FestitaMakool]

You’re right Alex, I think it’s exact the same system. A 16Ah circuit shall not carry more than 3600 Watts. It was a 16Ah circuit, I notified the staff about it and asked them to have it checked.
Some boilers can vary the draw, it could have been luck that they pulled differently, but I lean towards a circuit breaker fault. I did not get any feedback on my concern, but I should have persuaded so in retro perspective.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

I'm sure it would turn into either a logistics problem or one more reason for the haters to complain about the cost of the tools in the first place, but why not sell the tools without the cord at all? It would only ever be an issue with the first one. You retailer would just ask if you need one. Get the higher amp rated one in the first place and never think about it again.
As I have said before, one of the first things I do with a new tool is take the plug-it cable out of the Systainer and store it with the other 8 or 10 that I already don't use.
Part of the beauty of the system is the plug-it cable's ability to swap between tools, so you really are only ever using one. So why own one for each tool?
Ok, maybe an extra one for the Kapex, since it's stationary, or one of the bigger routers, if it's table mounted. Either way, you only buy the amount you actually use.
I do really wish the RAS115 was plug-it.

 

[Coen]

Coen,  you are confusing using the right solution, verses trying to bend everything around using 1 thing.  Trying to find ways to make everything work on one gauge wire is down right silly and impractical.

No, it's actually not silly and also very practical. Below 1,5mm^2 you reach the area where you don't want to get smaller because stuff breaks too easily from mechanical stresses. Go just 1mm^2 up and you're already fine for just about everything in a household. That leaves the cooktop. Use 3-phase and voila; everything works just fine with 2,5mm^2. Minimal amound of different wires in the van.

What you do is bend everything to fit in 110V. And as it turns out... it's rather impractical.

Also; how is using one gauge now impractical but Festool using two different gauges impractical at the same time? (Thx [member=5277]Alex[/member] )

Same for the sockets.  We could do as you do there. We could get rid of our high current receptacles and hardwire things in, but that would be a step backwards. 

Use 230/400 and voila; all those problems are gone because a 15A socket will be fine for about everything.

We could run multiple parallel wires to get the same power to a location without changing wire size, but that's wasteful verses just using the correct size wire.  We do have some instances were this is done.  Some items with multiple heating elements do this, such as tankless water heaters, they might have 2-3 parallel circuits.

The waste is not in the European system. Let's figure it out; a 11 kW heater here is connected with 3-phase 16A, requiring a grand total of 4 wires (to include earth). But let's be fair; almost always the neutral is used too, so five wires of 2,5mm^2. Rolls of 100m of those fit in a Systainer IV with room to spare...

You connect the 11 kW heater in a 50A circuit requiring what? 3x16mm^2? So per meter length you use almost 4x the copper. Your voltage losses will be 2,2 as small, but current being 3 times as high you still lose 50% more in the wiring. Soooo... it won't fit in the same 19mm conduit (3/4" if you like..), it uses 4x the copper and has 50% more losses. Tell me again what is more wastefull?

Often this is because they are imported products from Europe, so it's just the 3phase design repurposed. Electric heating in HVAC might do similar as well. Sure, we could probably get to 1 wire size, but we don't want to run 6awg for everything.

I am not saying you have to use 1 wire size. My point is that your mess with different wire sizes is a consequence of using the wrong voltage. If you switch over to 230V and 3-phase, the wire size issue will just melt away.

We don't do as you keep describing since again, it's unsafe, and there is no reason to. Just run the correct size wire. Stop limiting yourself by trying to make everything work back to one thing.

What we do is perfectly safe. In addition to that the van can be one meter shorter / lower, leading to less "traffic accidents".

Our wiring isn't hard at all.  You are imagining problems that don't exist. 

Well, two different gauges being a problem was the whole reason for this topic. So is it a problem or not?

We don't have voltage drop issues. We run 240V power to houses, you run 230V power to houses.  In the run lengths within a home that are 110V, the voltage drop will not be noticed, also we run properly sized wire.  Your wires are too small.

You do know that for same power transported with half the voltage you need four times the wire cross section to get the same relative voltage drop.... right? So that works out to 10mm^2 for you where we use 2,5mm^2. Seems you are using too small wires!

Maybe you have different breakers than us.  We use Magnetic-Thermal breakers.  You either pull too many amps for too long to trigger it thermal, or you have a short/inrush that trips the magnetic. 

Same here.

We have Arc fault breakers that detect arcs and trip them too.  We don't test for impedance because it doesn't change if the breaker will trip or not.

Lol your logic is flawed. If your circuit is a long run and you live far from the transformer, your circuit impedance will rise. Especially if you use a breaker that allows for higher inrush currents (magnetric trip lower limit raised)... it can be hard to actually be able to achieve the magnetric trip with a short circuit. I'll give you an example;
In the 1970's home of my brother the circuitimpedance on his side in a kitchen outlet is 0,35 Ohms. Max fault current is 650A. Now run it to some shed... and voila; your max fault current might be

 

[DeformedTree]

US installs are skewed in the "safer voltage" which allows unprotected bare wires in NEAM plugs etc. But pay with a much higher installation material costs and/or higher fire risks. These days (think last 100 years or so) it is only the higher costs.

European installs go more for the efficiency side which gives a generally simpler/cheaper (materially) installs and appliances. Then this is compensated by fully-protected plugs and additional safety precautions. Today this works out very well.

This was not so in the past, but is today. Especially with ubiquitous fully grounded installs with no PEN and RCDs being prevalent even where not mandated.

I would argue, that the 110V/240V system WAS superior on the safety side up until about the 50s/60s when the actual protection measures we have today were either not available or were not mandated.

Today, the safety aspect is a non-issue on either system which leaves the efficiency only and slants the weights in direction of the 230/400 system.

How are you deciding the European setup is safer?  Europe drags behind N.A. on electrical safety by a lot.

GFCI (RCD in your guys speak),  the US had is starting in the 1960s, with usage of it expanding to more locations since.  From online, it looks like it didn't start in a lot of Europe till the mid 80s, some places the 90s.

AFCI (arc fault), the US has had it for 20 years now, looks like in Europe it is just starting and is largely optional.

Tamper resistant outlets,  Looks like some of Scandinavia has them, but not others.

 

[mino]

How are you deciding the European setup is safer?  Europe drags behind N.A. on electrical safety by a lot.

GFCI (RCD in your guys speak),  the US had is starting in the 1960s, with usage of it expanding to more locations since.  From online, it looks like it didn't start in a lot of Europe till the mid 80s, some places the 90s.

AFCI (arc fault), the US has had it for 20 years now, looks like in Europe it is just starting and is largely optional.

Tamper resistant outlets,  Looks like some of Scandinavia has them, but not others.

By 110/240 system (typo, should be 120/240) I mean the US system - i.e. it was indeed safer mainly due to the lower voltage to ground as well as the widespread use of RCDs.
I think the RCDs were much sooner widespread in the US as they work as a fire-proofing first and foremost. In most of Europe fire-proofing the installation was not such a concern due to the prevalent construction materials, so it was not even recommended in many countries not to mention mandated. Bricks just do not burn when faced with a higher temperature and neither does concrete.

The thing is, I actually remember as a kid we had a few electrical "fires" in our wall sockets when they were reaching their end of life.This was - incredibly - seen as almost a non-issue as the wall was concrete, the socket was a thermo-stable plastic which does not burn and the socket internals were ceramic ... So it just made unpleasant odor and was fixed with no real urgency. Inherent safety has its benefits. Same way exposed plugs are mostly fine at 120V ...

For context:
In Czechoslovakia something like "wooden house" was considered a "cottage in the woods" category and seen as "not suitable for normal living". This was historical and was so during the last several hundred years or so. This was natural as with no AC existing a house with a low thermal mass would be un-livable during summer 30C+ and un-heatable in winter -20C. And when you have no new-built wooden houses or even plans to make them, you do not need to concern yourself with them in your standards and economics can take precedence. Just make a special rule for retrofitting such houses (e.g. mandate use of full-metal earthed conduits). Especially as raw materials for wires need to be imported and were rare after the wars (both first and second WW, basically), unlike in US.

Ref. wooden houses, this is slowly changing, but still a (modern) wooden house is considered mostly the bottom 10% of the market as AC is still considered an (unnecessary) luxury. People tend to rather invest in more thermal mass so summers cannot heat up a house easily (40cm brick walls or 20cm concrete being the norm) and insulation takes care of the winters...

Today RCDs came down in price, so started being mandated for their safety aspects. This means the overall safety level of the whole system is now balanced/equivalent between US and Europe new installs. But that was not always so in the past indeed.

About European sockets.
Mostly it is the French/German(Schuko) systems both of which have recessed sockets so you cannot touch the active wires while plugging the cable. The are exceptions - Swiss and Italians systems. But most of Europe is on the French/Schuko system which differ really only on the ground connector placement. The appliances are actually sold with the "Europlug" which is a universal hybrid that works both with "French" and Schuko grounding arrangements.

 

[Coen]

US installs are skewed in the "safer voltage" which allows unprotected bare wires in NEAM plugs etc. But pay with a much higher installation material costs and/or higher fire risks. These days (think last 100 years or so) it is only the higher costs.

European installs go more for the efficiency side which gives a generally simpler/cheaper (materially) installs and appliances. Then this is compensated by fully-protected plugs and additional safety precautions. Today this works out very well.

This was not so in the past, but is today. Especially with ubiquitous fully grounded installs with no PEN and RCDs being prevalent even where not mandated.

I would argue, that the 110V/240V system WAS superior on the safety side up until about the 50s/60s when the actual protection measures we have today were either not available or were not mandated.

Today, the safety aspect is a non-issue on either system which leaves the efficiency only and slants the weights in direction of the 230/400 system.

How are you deciding the European setup is safer?  Europe drags behind N.A. on electrical safety by a lot.

Oh really? Are you counting Russia under Europe as well? Turkey perhaps? Where are your sources?

GFCI (RCD in your guys speak),  the US had is starting in the 1960s, with usage of it expanding to more locations since.  From online, it looks like it didn't start in a lot of Europe till the mid 80s, some places the 90s.

Once again; what do you count under Europe? The former parts of the Soviet Union?

Rcd's are mandatory in NL since 1975.

AFCI (arc fault), the US has had it for 20 years now, looks like in Europe it is just starting and is largely optional.

Cause we have less need for it to begin with because of half as big currents.

Tamper resistant outlets,  Looks like some of Scandinavia has them, but not others.

Lol. The Scandinavian countries use the same Schuko outlet as used in many other European countries. The shutters are not mandatory in most though but are often used in places with low-placed outlets in a kid-rich environment.

 

[DeformedTree]

Cutting out the nonsense,  we know very much how wire sizing works here.  Again, you are getting hung up on trying to make them as small as you can or that buying/installing bigger gauge wire is some horrible burden.  You also keep forgetting that for most the stuff you are talking about we are 240V,  no change in wire size happens as it's all ready the same voltage (higher actually). We are powering stuff that is 240V and big amps. We use 240V for the same reason, it reduces amps, but what we are powering is much more powerful.  120V is used for lights and plugs, the stuff wired with 12 and 14 gauge wire, just like how you guys have 2 size wires for lights and plugs.  We could say we use less than you since we tend to use romex, so we aren't buying individual wires in different colors, but that's just getting silly. A spool of 12/2 and a spool of 14/2 and you are good to go for almost the entire house.

When we are using 10, 8, 6 gauge wire, it's 240V applications.  We also do use the 12 and 14 for 240V stuff too (common for base board heat).  There is no magical change in wire size.  And sizing wire is about the rise in temp of the wire due to it's insulation.  We aren't constraining ourselves to 110V, we use it where the need for 240V is almost non-existant, and the safety benefit of lower voltage wins out.  Sure, 240V makes it easier to run a large router in the living room,  not going to sell folks on getting rid of 120V.

Big loads are 240V, somehow the seams to keep getting missed.  If someone has oven, furnace, etc and it is 240V/60A, folks don't want to run 4 separate 15A runs to it.  We go parallel when we have loads over 100A because you hit a limit of the breakers.  So you have to start splitting it up, but that just isn't common, and when you can just grab the right size wire and be done with it, there is no issue.

You don't have wide spread use of large electrical appliances in homes there.  Not everything is easy to break up the loads. An electric car charger wants 240V/50A, not 3Phases.  That just means you will have to add more electronics to the charger to get it to something the car accepts.  Same for other devices.  And it's not like the runs with 10, 8, 6AWG are long.  Most are short as there is only a couple of them going to the same places, like the kitchen, or utility room, all of which are close to the electrical panel.  If someone has a small home, that is natural gas dependent, guess what? They might have only 12 and 14gauge wiring in the whole house.  As they might not have electrical circuits for range/cooktop/oven/AC/furance/Hot Water Heater/etc.  Problem is those houses will need to be upgraded in one form or another as gas service is eliminated.

I have nothing against 230/240V power.  I'd be fine with us being all 240V power.  But to act like there is something terrible wrong or problematic with 120V is silly. It works very well.  Same with 3 phase distribution, it's nice, works well if I have a lot of large motors to power. But it hardly changes anything in the big picture, power is power at the transmission level.  Both systems work perfectly well. There is zero chance of the USA and all the other countries with the same system changing, there just is no economic reason for that change.  There is no overall technical reason for going with one over the other. If the world was starting over, there would be debates on which way to go.

What matters is the systems being able to handle the future, which is pure electric.  The USA, Canada are well positioned as more of our homes are in a better position to handle the increased electrical demands as we put much bigger electrical services into our homes.

We use the right solutions for the problem. Safety rules all in US electrical.

Aaaah! So that is why you cut off the notches of thinner gauge cords?

What does this mean?

 

[Coen]

The appliances are actually sold with the "Europlug" which is a universal hybrid that works both with "French" and Schuko grounding arrangements.

No the Europlug is the small 2.5A plug that fits many different sockets.

The fullsize plug that is compatible with both German and French outlets is the hybrid CEE 7/7 plug.
This thing;

The hole for the French pin-earth and the metal strips on the side for the German earthing clips.

 

[DeformedTree]

By 110/240 system (typo, should be 120/240) I mean the US system - i.e. it was indeed safer mainly due to the lower voltage to ground as well as the widespread use of RCDs.
I think the RCDs were much sooner widespread in the US as they work as a fire-proofing first and foremost. In most of Europe fire-proofing the installation was not such a concern due to the prevalent construction materials, so it was not even recommended in many countries not to mention mandated. Bricks just do not burn when faced with a higher temperature and neither does concrete.

The thing is, I actually remember as a kid we had a few electrical "fires" in our wall sockets when they were reaching their end of life.This was - incredibly - seen as almost a non-issue as the wall was concrete, the socket was a thermo-stable plastic which does not burn and the socket internals were ceramic ... So it just made unpleasant odor and was fixed with no real urgency. Inherent safety has its benefits. Same way exposed plugs are mostly fine at 120V ...

GFCI was for safety with water, not fire. It started with pool heaters, spread to bathrooms, then kitchens, then basements (anything considered damp/wet).  It's pretty close to being on almost all circuits, not there yet.  It doesn't do anything for fire, it's just to protect you from becoming the circuit when your toaster falls into the bathtub with you in it.

AFCI has more to do with fire.  The concern being small arcing that takes time to cause a fire, like putting a nail in a wall into a wire (there are plenty of things protecting this from happening, but still), this might just slightly damage a wire, and not cause an instant arc, or event to kick a breaker.  As of the latest code revisions, it's mandatory on all 120V circuits.  It probably will go to 240V stuff before long.

We build all forms of construction of homes here, but again, that doesn't drive the electrical code.  Knob and tube got eliminated early on (it had issues), but when folks began insulating homes, it was an issue as the wires couldn't handle the retained heat.  As was mentioned, the temp rating on the wires is key, and why it has been increased over time here. 

As far in a junction box won't cause a house fire, the boxes are non-combustable, combustable materials can't be exposed to it where it comes thru the wall.  If something causes an event in a box, you can get something like you mention, a flash and such, but thats it.  Insulations are generally speaking non-combustable, most need some level of fire protecting covering over them (foam especially).  There are rules on how much device and wires goes into any size box to prevent over heating, just like running thru conduit, code ensures there is adequate air space to prevent over heating.  The wires won't cause a fire, as you have the protection device (fuse/breaker), they can't get to a hot enough temp to damage the insulation on them.

 

[Coen]

Cutting out the nonsense,  we know very much how wire sizing works here.

Yeah, well, you kinda have to because not knowing it will be a bigger risk in your system. In NL you can use one general rule for residential; all circuitbreakers 16A and all wiring 2,5mm^2.

Again, you are getting hung up on trying to make them as small as you can or that buying/installing bigger gauge wire is some horrible burden. 

Copper ain't free. That is why the core of your pennies is now Zinc.

You also keep forgetting that for most the stuff you are talking about we are 240V,  no change in wire size happens as it's all ready the same voltage (higher actually). We are powering stuff that is 240V and big amps. We use 240V for the same reason, it reduces amps, but what we are powering is much more powerful.  120V is used for lights and plugs, the stuff wired with 12 and 14 gauge wire, just like how you guys have 2 size wires for lights and plugs.

Hehe lol. On that two sizes for lights; Since 1968 when we adopted the European wire color standard we had the rule that switches wires had to be black or gray. Since the only switched thing in a home is lights and 1.5mm^2 was allowed for that it became logic to buy the black wire in 1,5mm^2. That rule might change, also allowing brown, but black 1.5mm^2 will probably still persist because if you are pulling wire you still need the extra roll.

We could say we use less than you since we tend to use romex, so we aren't buying individual wires in different colors, but that's just getting silly. A spool of 12/2 and a spool of 14/2 and you are good to go for almost the entire house.

Almost... so not really. Did you see the Youtube clip of the wire Systainer?

When we are using 10, 8, 6 gauge wire, it's 240V applications.  We also do use the 12 and 14 for 240V stuff too (common for base board heat).  There is no magical change in wire size. 

You brought up the list of wire sizes, not me.

And sizing wire is about the rise in temp of the wire due to it's insulation.  We aren't constraining ourselves to 110V, we use it where the need for 240V is almost non-existant, and the safety benefit of lower voltage wins out.  Sure, 240V makes it easier to run a large router in the living room,  not going to sell folks on getting rid of 120V.

You actually are constraining yourself, just like with the imperial system, but keep making excuses not to change. And I get it; change is hard. That is why the UK is stuck with the most lousy rail loading gauge while the US could learn from the UK's mistake and has way bigger loading gauge. In some sense you could say Europe learned from the 110V mistake in the US.

Big loads are 240V, somehow the seams to keep getting missed.  If someone has oven, furnace, etc and it is 240V/60A, folks don't want to run 4 separate 15A runs to it.

Neither do we. We run a single 3-phase circuit. 5x2,5mm^2 in 19mm conduit, good for 11 kW. Specific for NL we cheated and have a handicapped version (for homes with single-phase connection) where we run 2 single circuits in parallel for 7,4 kW. I actually just installed one in my brother's home a week ago. Now he has a 7,4 kW induction cooktop.

We go parallel when we have loads over 100A because you hit a limit of the breakers.  So you have to start splitting it up, but that just isn't common, and when you can just grab the right size wire and be done with it, there is no issue.

So many how different types of wire does the residential service electrician have in his van?

You don't have wide spread use of large electrical appliances in homes there.  Not everything is easy to break up the loads. An electric car charger wants 240V/50A, not 3Phases. 

Really? The Tesla's here are charged with 3-phase. There are some single phase 32A cars, these are annoying for the typical NL home installation.

That just means you will have to add more electronics to the charger to get it to something the car accepts.

Yeah, because one tiny part of the globe sticks to a standard from 2 centuries ago

Same for other devices.  And it's not like the runs with 10, 8, 6AWG are long.  Most are short as there is only a couple of them going to the same places, like the kitchen, or utility room, all of which are close to the electrical panel.  If someone has a small home, that is natural gas dependent, guess what? They might have only 12 and 14gauge wiring in the whole house.  As they might not have electrical circuits for range/cooktop/oven/AC/furance/Hot Water Heater/etc.  Problem is those houses will need to be upgraded in one form or another as gas service is eliminated.

We had mandatory 19mm conduit to the kitchen since ages. But I think they scrapped it a few years ago. But more recently new homes aren't even connected to the gas network and of 99% that don't have the empty conduit you go through the crawl space. That's the route used in my brother's home too, since his kitched moved from the original 1970's spot.

I have nothing against 230/240V power.  I'd be fine with us being all 240V power.  But to act like there is something terrible wrong or problematic with 120V is silly. It works very well.

Yet all these topics complaining about the two gauge cords, the plugs on the CT, the power rating of the outlet on the CT etc. suggest otherwise.

Same with 3 phase distribution, it's nice, works well if I have a lot of large motors to power. But it hardly changes anything in the big picture, power is power at the transmission level.  Both systems work perfectly well. There is zero chance of the USA and all the other countries with the same system changing,

There are actually very few countries that use 110V

there just is no economic reason for that change.  There is no overall technical reason for going with one over the other. If the world was starting over, there would be debates on which way to go.

Maybe that has something to do with the time you see as reasonable to get a return on investment.

What matters is the systems being able to handle the future, which is pure electric.  The USA, Canada are well positioned as more of our homes are in a better position to handle the increased electrical demands as we put much bigger electrical services into our homes.

That just means more possibily to install wastefull ways of heating. Like resistive instead of heatpump. Or with too little insulation.

We use the right solutions for the problem. Safety rules all in US electrical.

Aaaah! So that is why you cut off the notches of thinner gauge cords?

What does this mean?

Cutting off tabs of the ends of thinner cords is definitly not "Safety rules all".

 

[Bohdan]

Give it a rest guys. You are worst than a republican talking to a democrat.

 

[Cheese]

Give it a rest guys. You are worst than a republican talking to a democrat.

Well unfortunately...they’re both Democrats...not a bad thing...

But I still love each full-throated proclamation. And you do have to admire that each has a full-throated declaration of their position.

I’d say let the debate go on...

US 240V vs EU 230V

 

[Cheese]

Personally, I have no issues with the power distribution in the US. It works and it works well.The normal 240 vac comes in on the main pole to every house and I can direct it to whatever outlet I need to. If I need 120 vac I can also direct that to whatever outlet I need. Pretty simple...240 comes in and you make a decision if you need 120 or 240 power, you direct it to the outlet you need. Drama over , pretty simple.

If you need 3-phase you just contact the power provider and that becomes installed.

 

[Coen]

If you need 3-phase you just contact the power provider and that becomes installed.

Then you get the 207 phase-phase voltage? What do they charge to install that?

Overhere grid companies now charge about 300 bucks to screw in the two missing fuses if you have a single phase connection. (99% of them being wired 3-phase to the home, but single phase to the meter).

 

[Svar]

Me, checking out this thread, thinking it's about 2 cords:

[attachimg=1]