Accuracy and the MFS as a Squaring Jig

[Dave Ronyak]

Yeah, I agree with the above. It's a fairly common male trait to say you can make one yourself. I didn't realize how often I said it until my wife starting calling me on it every time. .... I'd rather just buy it and have it do what it's supposed to. I'm way over fiddling around with stuff when I could just be getting the work done.

Right on!!  And not just for the MFS (I don't have one - yet), but also for many other accessories that many if not most of us seem to have to make to get the best out of the tools that we buy, e.g. squaring and repeat rip width attachments for the guide rails. 

Dave R.

 

[Steveo48]

Ned, I obviously don't own one and can't find anything that shows me how versatile it is.  Festool USA's site is barren on information for it.  I can't pull up any specs, no video, nothing.

What makes it so special (serious question)?  :-X .  1 x 3 aluminum frame is $0.39 an inch, t slot fasteners are cheap.  The tilt-o-matic is no big deal to fabricate and the circle gizmo looks pretty easy to duplicate.  From comments other Festoolians have made on the MFS here, I could pretty easily make something as out of square as the MFS.

Steve

I guess I'm a little suprised how much a MFS costs, it is after all, t-slot aluminum framing.  You can make your own for about 1/3rd the cost?

A number of people have explored this, including me.  If you view all the manufacturing of an MFS as chopping extrusion, it sure is expensive.

95% of the MFS engineering is in the extrusion itself.  Other extrusions might work for a particular MFS-like use, but can't compare with the real thing for versatility.  It's "just like an MFS" except it's thicker than it needs to be (limits depth of cut) or doesn't have the clamps or pins, or it's not as wide, or, or...

As I said, a number of us tried.  To date, no one's announced that they've built something with all the flexibility and accuracy of an MFS.

I bought an MFS kit, and I've been back for more.  Worth every penny.

Ned

 

[Ned]

Ned, I obviously don't own one and can't find anything that shows me how versatile it is.  Festool USA's site is barren on information for it.  I can't pull up any specs, no video, nothing.

I don't know of any video, but I'll assume you've already absorbed the Festool USA info (check all the tabs for info including Jerry's manual),  Brice's thread here, and my Notes on the MFS.  There are other useful threads here as well, so do a search on MFS.

What makes it so special (serious question)?    1 x 3 aluminum frame is $0.39 an inch, t slot fasteners are cheap.

First, it's not 1 inch thick, it's 16mm (about 5/8 inch).  16mm is enough, thicker than that just wastes your plunge depth (this is critical on the 1010 router, not so much on routers that can use 1/2" bits).

The broad top of the extrusion (80mm, >3 inches) gives a good stable surface.  Yeah, it's easy enough to find 3-inch wide extrusions, but not 5/8 by 3.

The graduated markings are useful.  Probably the easiest thing for an MFS DIYer would be some kind of pressure sensitive tape.  Be sure to find one that fits properly on (preferably in) your extrusion so it doesn't get damaged easily, and be very sure to place the zero point on each of the extrusions accurately.  Perhaps stick it on and then cut the aluminum at the zero. 

The MFS extrusions have slots that fit the standard Festool clamps.  Because the slots are underneath, you can clamp with nothing protruding to get in the way or snag the router's cord or hose.  This is a huge reason why the MFS is better than home-made.

The MFS alignment pins help significantly in making a rigid structure.  As someone else pointed out recently, without the pins, the structure with right-angle joiners tightened is still close to floppy.

Other extrusions have all kinds of right-angle joiners available.  The unobtrusive ones typically require a hole to be drilled and so work in that one place only.  The ones intended to be adjustable are really clunky compared to the practically invisible MFS right-angle joiners.  This isn't just a style issue; things that stay out of your way help you work better.

By "tilt-o-matic" do you mean the black plastic thing that keeps the router from tipping into the center of the frame?  "no big deal"?  OK, make one!  Be sure your solution allows you to move the router completely around the rectangle without changing your hand position on the router or your position on the floor.  The black thing attaches to the copy ring and swings freely around the router's center point. 

You can certainly come up with other ways to cut circles.  I don't think I'd buy the MFS just for cutting circles, but it's a nice bonus.  Like every other template you construct with the MFS parts, the circle-cutting configuration goes together easily, is accurate, and can be be made very large.  Very likely you'd need several other solutions to cover the same range.

You can make an MFS-like guide out of other extrusions.  For some particular purpose, it might be as good.  Maybe even better, if what you're after is a permanent production jig.  If you're building a single-purpose jig, you could decide you don't need this or that feature.  Perhaps this single-purpose jig could have custom clamping arrangements, whatever.

The whole point of the MFS is to be a compact and accurate replacement for all those single-purpose jigs.  If you want that versatility and don't want to buy it, you've got to build a complete MFS.  And that's harder than you think.

Of course, that's just my opinion.  I could be wrong. 

If you do completely implement the MFS for half the cost (not counting your time), a bunch of us on FOG will have bruises on our foreheads where we slapped ourselves and said "Why didn't we think of what Steve did?"

OTOH, if the DIY doesn't work out and you buy an MFS, I promise not to say "I told you so."  I'll just think it.  ;D

Ned

 

[James Metcalf]

Ned
That was very clear and concise. All I can add to that is I have had one for at least a year and would buy one again if I did not have one.

 

[Eli]

From comments other Festoolians have made on the MFS here, I could pretty easily make something as out of square as the MFS.

Steve

Time for you to prove us wrong. Build it.

Like I said, post a video.

 

[Steveo48]

If I ever need one I'll do that.  But you'll have to be satisfied with pics, not video. ;D

I have looked at the online docs (Jerry's is really detailed) but I'm still not convinced I'd need this at all.  Perhapes I don't do the amount of routing others do or have solutions that get it done for me.  The pantry I just built had dados routed out with my Dewalt router and my 1400 guide with F clamps.  The back I rabeted in using a TS with a dado blade.

I also have to agree with (Dan I think said it?) this is a misunderstood tool.  Festool hasn't done a good job selling it (to me anyway).  Or perhaps I really don't need it after all.

From comments other Festoolians have made on the MFS here, I could pretty easily make something as out of square as the MFS.

Steve

Time for you to prove us wrong. Build it.

Like I said, post a video.

 

[Dave Ronyak]

Steve48,

I suspect we (those participating in this thread) are essentially discussing the age old question of "How do I do that?" and finding that there are many ways of doing "that", whatever the woodworking task may be.  And we are also finding that different people have different preferences among those various methods of achieving the same or nearly the same result.  You cut your dados with your handheld circular saw; I may have cut them on a table saw, or used my router with a guide rail to do the same on site or in the shop.

I don't own an MFS yet, but the more I read about its capabilities, and the more I think about its capabilities, the more I convince myself to buy one.  Had I known about the MFS and more of what can be done with it and a router (as in Jerry Work's and Brice Burrell's manuals), I would have saved myself from buying and making several hinge mortising jigs and an inlay cutting kit that I chose and from having to make several inlay patch templates that I used to repair several old veneered doors and hanging a few new doors in my house.  That job would have been completed much faster.  Her

Here's another example of there being at least two different ways of accomplishing the same task.  For inlaying, you can use the scales on the MFS to set the sizes right for the male and female cuts.  You can also set the MFS once and change the router bushings for those male and female cuts.  Swapping bushings is clearly simpler and faster, but if you don't have the right bushings to match your router bit, you can use the precision scales on the MFS to reset it to the correct size for the second cut.

Dave R.

 

[Steveo48]

I guess the only thought I have is falling back on Steve Jones comment on the difference between carpenters and tool collectors.  I'm not a True Believer in all the Festool accessories (that should be obvious) and consider many of them to be very expensive.  If you've seen my comments on systainers and sortainers you know how I feel about this ($109.00 for a little 9 drawer plastic box? : )

I know how some people feel about all the research that goes into designing this stuff, the tough ABS plastics of the systaniers and sortainers,  the engineering of the aluminum frames in the MFS, but crikey (thats for Eli ;D) Festool should be speaking to the manufacturers of that stuff, not trying to reinvent the wheel.  When I worked in manufacturing we did a lot of design on the floor talking to our mechanics and sketched things out on brown lunch bags (or a white bakery bag if it was before lunch).  Any carpenter/cabinet maker worth his beans ought to be able to design an MFS type of device without breaking a sweat. And what's so hard about designing the systainer to hold the power tools?  It's just a plastic box, I'm unconvinced it's anymore than that.
 
I think we can all agree that we have different ways to "skin our cats" (I've never owned any type of hinge jig, I'm a neanderthal, I use a sharp chisel and box cutter) but the MFS sure seems to make some people happy and has a loyal following.  I bet they do a lot more routing than I do, and I expect that an old dog like me simply doesn't have a need that the MFS would fill...... not at $260.00+ anyway.

On this blog I feel like I'm the lone voice in the desert.  I haven't swallowed Festool hook, line and sinker, I'm not waving grey and green pom poms or painting my cabinets matching festool colors.  It doesn't mean I don't love the power tools themselves.  My ets 125 is the best small sander I've ever owned.  I've really enjoyed going after sheet goods with my TS 55 and using the guide rail with my DeWalt router (figuring offset isn't a big deal for me).

I'm going to make a trip to Wood Craft and talk to Dusty about the MFS and see if he can get me excited.   I'll let you know if he turns me on this.

Steve

 

[Dan Clark]

Steve,

No, you're not the lone voice in the desert.  There are a lot of voices out there, each of us is singing his/her own tune.  Each of us buys some combo of tools that suits our needs.   

I have a batch of Festool tools because they met my needs and the stuff I had previously (or didn't have) did not meet my needs.  I also have some Makita tools, a couple of things from Dewalt, and a Bosch miter saw.  I'm pretty happy with my combo except for the miter saw.  Overall, I'd say that it's very normal for other Festool users to have a batch of different types of tools.

And, it's also normal for opinions to differ.  I have a Festool C12 and love it.  I also have the little 18V Makita impact driver and think it's great too.  One fellow on this forum thinks the Makita 18V impact driver is awesome, but thinks the C12 is WAY overpriced and definitely not worth it.  That's OK and normal too. 

We're all just trying to get the right solution for ourself. 

Regards,

Dan.

p.s., I don't wear a Festool hat or t-shirt.  (Of course, I absolutely HATE hats and t-shirts of any type.  ;D )

 

[CharlesWilson]

Steveo48,

I think you are trying to force yourself to want/like/need the MFS. You can certainly find other ways to accomplish everything that it is capable of providing.

For many, the MFS is an extravagance. I mean, $260 can buy a fair amount of quarter-sawn walnut.  For me, a cell phone is an extravagance.

My MFS and my Domino machine are being used more and more in my projects, and have been slowly increasing my productivity. Neither one is irreplaceable. They just make some things easier (and sometimes faster).

Don't worry. You are not a voice in the desert. We hear you, and appreciate your candor.

Charles Wilson

 

[Greg Pavlov]

I had so many issues with the mft and square cuts that I have decided some time ago that I will use my mft only for assembly and manual labor.  .......

My trusty Unisaw and the incra 5000 are the king for my cross cuts.

I don't get it why to go to this extreme ways to use the mft when it is not accurate.  Rails are not square to the top, fences are not square, etc.
Just my opinion.

I also had problems getting square (*really* square) cuts on the mft but since I don't have a table saw I had to give it a go.  I think that you have to work with this stuff differently.  Our bench power tools tend to rely on a lot of mass to gain accuracy.  As you know, the Festool guides, rails, fences etc don't have much mass and tend to flex easily, so you have to watch out for and take that into account when working with them.  I was using the old 5-cut method to try to align the angle stop & fence and was having a heck of a time until I realized several things about the setup and what I was doing with it.  For example, when releasing the angle stop and moving the fence to change the zero angle point, and then repeating the test cuts, my adjustments produced inconsistent results and I just couldn't seem to get anywhere.  I would swing the fence from the outer end to minimize change (e.g., furthest point away from the fulcrum) and because I had to also loosen and tighten the stop I have out on the end.  But I realized, finally, that since the fence is not very rigid, it was deflecting a bit each time due to resistance at the fulcrum, sometimes more, sometimes less.  So I started to adjust the fence from the fulcrum point.  Once I figured a few things like that, I was able to get the table and my technique adjusted to get very good and consistently repeatable square cuts. 

One of the problems with Festool, I think, is that the hands-on articles (those I've seen, anyway, and it's been quite a few) have tended to avoid one of the most useful aspect of hands-on articles: talking about some of the shortcomings and how people compensate for them.  Instead there tends to be the opposite tack, such as (one random example) someone claiming the he can use the TS55/CT22 setup inside customers' homes because it creates virtually no dust in the house.

 

[Tinker]

I?ve been trying to get a word or two into this conversation for a full day.  For whatever reason, I have been blocked out from making comments.  Tis happens atleast once per week.  I can make replies, but cannot read what I have written until it shows on the board.  I am now trying with the old, ancient copy/paste method.  As with Steve, the old ways can sometimes work.

Steve has made it quite clear that he is in no need of the MFS.  He has shown (suggested, or you add your own wording) that he can hang doors using the old fashioned chisel and box knife method.  He can make jigs ?just as out of square? as the MFS.  That is great.  I, also have hung doors using the same method except I did it with pencil, hammer and chisel.  Not necessarily as accurately as Steve, but satisfactory for my own house.

I was a mason contractor for something like 35 years.  The methods I used for laying brick and stone were some 4000 years old.  They still are done the same way some 25 years since I got out of the biz.  The improvements have come mostly in the handling of materials BEFORE they get to the mason.  Since I was pretty much a loner, I was always VERY interested in improving my methods for getting those materials to the mason on the scaffolding. (Oh yes, scaffolding>>> another story coming up)

When I first went into biz on my own, I landed a job bulding foundations, fireplaces and chimneys for a local developer.  I have commented on this experience before.  The lead carpenter, an old country Swede, on that project (50 houses or so) hung all of the doors on the project.  He could do something like 3 or 4 houses in a day.  I don?t know if Steve could hve kept up or not.  He had an interresting method for trimming.  He had no jig to hold the door in place.  He just leaned the door into his arm pit and chopped away with his hatchet.  He did lower part of each side and flipped the door to do the opposite end the same way.  Made no difference to him which way grain was, I think his hatchet was about as sharp as any tool on the job.  He could probably have shaved with it.  I had several occasions over the years to go back and work on many of those houses.  I told the customers about how their doors had been hung.  With close inspection, you could tell it had not been done with hand or any other type of plane.  You could see the very tight marks indicating a hatchet job.  Steve, throw away your planes.  You do NOT need them.

At the same time as above story, I was building my own scaffolding out of wood.  Hell, I did not need any of the VERY EXPENSVE steel staging.  A waste of hard earned money, much of which I was not, at the time, proud recipient of.  I was doing a chimney over a garage extension at back of a house.  All of a sudden, my scaffolding started shaking.  I looked down to see what was going on and started yelling.  Those Swedes (I?m not trying to insult any nationality here, believe me.  One of my best teachers was a Swede.  I will eventually find a chance to tell some about him.  A really great and interesting person I really looked up to) were ripping off some of the bracing at the bottom of my scaffolding.  Since it was me yelling and perhaps a little cussin? thrown in, and them, who suddenly could not understand a word of English, no matter how colorful. I had nothing to do but start dismantelling my own scaffolding. 

I would not go so far as to say I was just a little irritated, but those Swedes did begin to interpret a little bit of what I was trying tto tell them as the first of my planking from the top of the scaffold started flying directly towards the sources of my humorous response.  They, for some reson, started running. As soon as I had my complete scaffolding on the ground, I told my helper (A cousin who understood my response completely having bee blessed with the same type of ?good humor?) to stack the lumber for loading and I heade towards Bridgeport.  I returned about two or three hours later with a stack of very EXPENSIVE steel scaffolding frames on the back of my truck.

Over the next several years, I added on to those steel frames many times over.  They were, as I look back, VERY EXPENSIVE, but they were one of the BEST and CHEAPEST expenditures I ever made.  AND, those Swedes never tried cutting them out from under me, NOT EVER.

Tinker

 

[Ned]

Greg, thanks for, for me, a very useful post.

I also had problems getting square (*really* square) cuts on the mft but since I don't have a table saw I had to give it a go.  I think that you have to work with this stuff differently.  ...But I realized, finally, that since the fence is not very rigid, it was deflecting a bit each time due to resistance at the fulcrum, sometimes more, sometimes less.  So I started to adjust the fence from the fulcrum point.  Once I figured a few things like that, I was able to get the table and my technique adjusted to get very good and consistently repeatable square cuts. 

One of the problems with Festool, I think, is that the hands-on articles (those I've seen, anyway, and it's been quite a few) have tended to avoid one of the most useful aspect of hands-on articles: talking about some of the shortcomings and how people compensate for them.

I'm not sure it's "shortcomings".  I can't imagine Festool's engineers allowing anything that they thought was a shortcoming.  I've always assumed that German buyers somehow had less trouble than North Americans.  The persistent question is why?

Possibilities:

• When you buy a tool in Germany, the shopkeeper gives you extensive training with it.  This one's possible, I suppose.  :-\
• No one is allowed to buy a woodworking tool in Germany without first presenting a certificate that shows they've completed an apprenticeship program.  More likely than you think, but pretty unlikely.  
• Somehow, the concepts and attitudes that underlie Festools are just naturally part of the common knowledge in Germany.  Hmm...
• or, Germans are just naturally smarter than English-speakers.  Nah....

What I've concluded is that many of the assumptions and attitudes underlying Festool (and every other manmade artifact, come to that), I say, the underlying assumptions are so deeply a part of the designer's outlook that they're not even aware of them.  The assumptions are just "normal".    The assumptions include things like "no one would ever throw a power tool off the back of a truck" or "space is valuable, so the tool must store compactly" or even more subtle stuff like what "tighten securely" means.  The factory doesn't bother to explain, because, well, it's just so obvious.

Then the Anglo bunch (or the French, or the Japanese, or...) starts using the tools based on their assumptions.

I've long thought that Christian O.'s biggest job is mediating between cultures.  For every instance where he explains something to us, I'll bet there are multiple instances when he explains things to the guys in Wendlingen and gets incredulous stares ("Why would anyone think/do that?").

Ned

 

[Tinker]

My wife's BIL was an iron workr.  He had to go thru apprenticeship and so on up.  Once he was labeled an iron worker, that was to be his life.  his sons have been thru apprenticships etc, and sometimes find it very hard to find work as they have been labeled.  I am sure that the only ones who use certain tools are those who have been labeled to use those tools.  They are covered by as many regulations as the tools that are manufactured for their use.

Sorry for any errors.  I am basically typing blind here.  In fact, the only part of this message I can see is the part that continues from point "sorry..."  Must be I am under a label.
Tinker

 

[Dave Ronyak]

Greg, thanks for, for me, a very useful post.

One of the problems with Festool, I think, is that the hands-on articles (those I've seen, anyway, and it's been quite a few) have tended to avoid one of the most useful aspect of hands-on articles: talking about some of the shortcomings and how people compensate for them.

...
Then the Anglo bunch (or the French, or the Japanese, or...) starts using the tools based on their assumptions.

I've long thought that Christian O.'s biggest job is mediating between cultures.  For every instance where he explains something to us, I'll bet there are multiple instances when he explains things to the guys in Wendlingen and gets incredulous stares ("Why would anyone think/do that?").
Ned
[/quote]

Ned,

Thanks for your addition to a post I also found enlightening.  People in different cultures do look at many things differently.  If you have traveled to Germany and interacted with their people, you know they approach many things differently than we do.  For one, they do not build houses the way we do!  And whose cars is the rest of the automotive world still trying to emulate?  Technology, engineering, precision and organization are deeply rooted and respected.  Why else do the Germans proudly display next to a Ferris wheel set up for a street carnival all of its technical specifications? (The Ferris wheel worked very smoothly, too.)  Through my work I have had the pleasure of frequently working with German nationals, most of whom have earned Diploma Eng or PhDs and formal legal training as well becoming licensed Patentanwelt (patent attorneys), and occasionally traveling to Germany.  They roughly equate Dipl Eng to a USA Bachelor's of engineering degree.  With several of these people at first I experienced some difficulties in communications due to people in their culture being more formal than in USA (and perhaps because they viewed their technical training to be superior to mine).  That led to some difficulties in persuading them to discuss their ideas before formally committing to them in some legal paper.  But over time, there was established a much closer working relationship to and understanding of the business objectives of our mutual clients.  Historically, these professionals took in the written information about some invention and the prior art and prepared their legal papers based only on their own thoughts, and the client and USA legal representative only saw the final product.  This "blinders on" approach could lead to disastrous results if the (USA) client is engaged in enforcing corresponding patents to the same invention throughout the world.  But after some (years) of growing familiarity, I have become personal friends with several of these people.  That better understanding has improved the quality and effectiveness of our formal business communications as well and we now function as an integrated team.

I think you are right regarding part of Christian's job, although I would characterize it as interpreting and facilitating genuine mutual understanding rather than mediation (which from my background I associate with settlement of disputes).  I am very glad Christian is interested in the comments posted on FOG, and think it benefits both Festool and its USA customers.  I think part of his job (and that of Festool's factory and technical representatives) should be to try to understand how Americans work differently to construct things differently than Europeans, and particularly Germans.  (If you are at least 45 years old, you might ask yourself what you thought of European style frameless cabinets and hinges the first time you encountered them.  I thought they were very odd compared to my previous knowledge of USA cabinet construction and hinges.  If you have ever been to Europe and particularly to Germany, ask yourself if you have ever seen similar window mechanisms or passage door construction and hardware in USA?)  I have also participated in gatherings of BMW owners in which senior executives of that company and the (PhD engineer) person in charge of their USA factory in Greer, SC explained the development of their "M" cars and invited audience input for future projects.  I have seen some of those suggestions implemented.  There would not have been any USA 6 cylinder "M3" beginning in 1994 (labeled as a 1995 model) absent BMW listening to the car owners analogue to members of FOG, nor a 4 dr model of that car.  Further proof that the Germans understood that message is that the new V8 M3 will be available with 2 or 4 doors.  Hopefully, Festool will come to view USA and North America as a sufficiently large market that they will introduce more tools and training to address the ways we work.

Dave R.

 

[bruegf]

Not to start a war, but Apple.....  you can buy better but you can't pay more

Fred

 

[John Stevens]

Not to start a war, but Apple.....  you can buy better but you can't pay more

Yeah, I'm eight months into my first iMac and am not very impressed with their software.  On the other hand, the guys and gals on the other end of the tech support line seem to be very impressed with it.  However, if the software continues to be virus-free and the hardware is more easily repairable than my old Dell computers, I'll consider the price to have been worth it.  Time will tell.

Regards,

John

 

[Jerry Work]

Until the end of this thread I thought the discussion was about the MFS system.  Now as I type this response on an iMac and using Apple software very successfully to manage my tens of thousands of photos and to write books, manuals and other materials, it seems the thread has drifted.  So, to move it back to the MFS.........

If you only occasionally need a router jig and don't much care about how accurate your recesses are or how easily you can use the same jig to cut multiple recesses in multiple workpieces, use a few scraps of wood to make a router guide and call it good.  I can't do that and maintain the efficiency I need for my style of work. 

As an example, in the large conference room table I just completed (I supplied a few more details on this 8' diameter, 600 to 700 pound creation in another post) I needed to cut ten nearly perfect, consistent and very accurately located recesses on the bottom of the ten tapered sections, each made up of four tapered segments glued together, in 45mm thick solid Oregon big leaf maple.  Five of these recesses were 15mm deep and about 9" square and the other five were 30mm deep and about 4" x 7".  All had to be exactly in the center of the section and all had to be exactly in the same place on each section.  The square recesses had to exactly be centered over 5.5" holes cut in the table top to house electrical connection pop up mechanisms.  With the metric markings on the MFS to size and align the "jigs" on the under side of the table sections, and the steel sled to clear the insides of each recess to create a really flat floor for each recess, the task was fast and very accurate.  Much more accurate than I could have done with any kind of home made jig.

So, for applications like this one the cost of the MFS is insignificant compared to what the cost would have been if one of those recesses was messed up and I had to somehow recreate the exact tapered segments which form each section.  BTW, the margin of error in the angle of each segment is so small that you (at least I) could not cut them using stationary tools or by trying to measure angles.  With 40 segments making up the 8' diameter top an error of just 0.1 degrees would result in a 4 degree error on the fit of the last piece - way more than would be acceptable.  Even a 0.01 degree error multiplied by 40 results in a cumulative error of nearly a half a degree, also too much to be acceptable.  (The tapers were cut with a 75 saw on a jig made from a long guide rail by finding the radius that produces a perimeter measurement evenly divisible by 40.  Setting the center point for the guide rail exactly on the line of cut and then carefully measuring out to the correct radius allowed stops to be established that would cut the correct perimeter segment length with half that length on each side of the center line without ever having to consider the angle measurements.)

I know that for many, the cost of the MFS can't be vetted against opportunity costs like avoiding having to remake parts of a challenging  project because the jig being used to cut a "simple" recess failed or was not accurate enough.  But, I think everyone, no matter what you build or who you build it for, can benefit from learning from the accuracy to which the MFS allows you to work.  Enough time on my soap box, I will step down now.  Hope this helps.

Jerry

 

[Warrior]

Jerry,
Aren't you just a little dissapointed that the scales on the MFS are painted on vs etched?

Thanks,
Eiji

 

[Greg Pavlov]

I'm not sure it's "shortcomings".  I can't imagine Festool's engineers allowing anything that they thought was a shortcoming.  I've always assumed that German buyers somehow had less trouble than North Americans.  The persistent question is why?

Possibilities:

• When you buy a tool in Germany, the shopkeeper gives you extensive training with it.  This one's possible, I suppose.  :-\
• No one is allowed to buy a woodworking tool in Germany without first presenting a certificate that shows they've completed an apprenticeship program.  More likely than you think, but pretty unlikely.  
• Somehow, the concepts and attitudes that underlie Festools are just naturally part of the common knowledge in Germany.  Hmm...
• or, Germans are just naturally smarter than English-speakers.  Nah....

What I've concluded is that many of the assumptions and attitudes underlying Festool (and every other manmade artifact, come to that), I say, the underlying assumptions are so deeply a part of the designer's outlook that they're not even aware of them.  The assumptions are just "normal".    The assumptions include things like "no one would ever throw a power tool off the back of a truck" or "space is valuable, so the tool must store compactly" or even more subtle stuff like what "tighten securely" means.  The factory doesn't bother to explain, because, well, it's just so obvious.

Then the Anglo bunch (or the French, or the Japanese, or...) starts using the tools based on their assumptions.  ...............
Ned

Now *that* is a followup in a direction I never expected, but very interesting.  What you say makes a lot of sense, and also helps to explain why so much software seems so clumsy.  I would add two additional factors:

- VERY generally, the American design tradition in lots of areas (ex: Corvettes and Thunderbirds vs MGs and Triumphs) has included using a lot of mass and material, while the European has been reliance on finesse and maximizing material.  Yes, you can design a 30 lb fence that will stay rigid no matter what, but alternatively you can design one that's 3-4 lbs that with the right technique will almost always accomplish just about the same thing.
-Nothing's perfect, because design always requires tradeoffs.

[re your second possibility: do you know what someone has to do to get a fishing license in Germany? (sounds like you might!)]