Advance - orange peel

[mrFinpgh]

Hi all,

My first post here.  I'm the proud new owner of a TS-55 and an extra 55" rail (excellence..  especially the dust collection).  For my first project using Festool, I am building some built-ins using Maple ply.  I'm at the phase where I'm trying to get some pre-finishing done before I install, and I'm running into some issues.

Here's my schedule:
Primer - Zinsser Primecoat 2
Prime 1x
Sand @ 220
Prime 2x
Sand @ 320
Paint - BM Advance in Satin

I'm rolling everything with a whizz velour roller cover. I think it works out to something like 3/16".  It's an indoor environment - about 68 degrees and relatively low humidity.

I put down the first coat of Advance today and I was very disappointed in the outcome.  It has a bumpy orange peel texture - more texture than Regal or Aura have given me on other things I've done with thicker nap rollers.

Here is what I'm referring to:

[attachimg=1]

Anyone have any suggestions?  Spraying is not an option here. I've read some folks suggest a tack-coat, and I could try rolling and tipping, but my expectation was that Advance leveled really well and that the velour cover would leave a pretty smooth finish.  I'm not looking forward to sanding this down.

Thanks,
Adam

 

[Alejandrom]

First of all, sorry for my English.

I think your problem is that you have to add more diluent, solvent, or thinner ( I do not know the right word ).

I think the problem is that the paint has dried too fast without leveling itself.  You have to add more solvent or a slower dry one.

PD. And I think you have to sand it to remove the Orange peel. I have made many, many many furniture finish and in my experience if you have a problem at the bottom and you do not solve it ( sand in your case ), you will have a very big problem at the finish. 

 

[thedude306]

Alejandrom has it right, you need to lower the viscosity or/and slow down the drying...  You can lower the viscosity with an additive like thinner/solvent or with warming up the paint...

I like to do both but you need to know your solvent chemistry to ensure that you don't dry too fast or have wet paint for days.  I have know idea what BM recommends for a solvent so I would talk to the store you bought it at.

You have very fast solvents like acetone, and very slow solvents like butyl-carbitol.  You are going to need something in the middle. 

 

 

[mrFinpgh]

I think the TDS for advance recommends only water as a thinner.  It went on a lot thicker than I expected - a lot of folks online saying it was a low-viscosity paint. 

 

[tjbnwi]

Your not putting enough on with the small nap roller.

Thinner and retarder are 2 very different things. Just because you thin a product it does not mean you've retarded the dry process.

My go to thinner is windshield washer fluid. The cheap blue stuff.

Tom

 

[mrFinpgh]

Hi Tom,

So would you suggest a thicker nap roller?

I tried putting it on heavier on the bottom of a couple of shelves, and it still seemed to be very textured.

I think I have a few 3/8 nap mini covers I could use.

I talked to my paint dealer and he suggested that I try cutting it with a capful of water to see if that helped.

Thanks,
Adam

 

[thedude306]

Your not putting enough on with the small nap roller.

Thinner and retarder are 2 very different things. Just because you thin a product it does not mean you've retarded the dry process.

My go to thinner is windshield washer fluid. The cheap blue stuff.

Tom

Do you ever have issue with any of the other additives over straight methanol of the washer fluid?  I know that they are adding detergents and silicone to some varieties.  I guess that doesn't keep it cheap and blue though. 

The additives evaporation rate will determine if it slows the drying rate.  Methanol is pretty quick as to compared to say water. 

 

[JCLP]

Hi Adam,
I use BJ Advance all the time and have experimented with many paint brushes and roller sleeves. The roller sleeves I use are these ones. BJ recommends Microfiber roller sleeves for Advance.
Purdy Roller Sleeve
I use the 3/8" nap.
I don't thin out my paint at all. If you wish to you can but only use water up to 10%. So here is the process I use.
2 coats of advance primer sanded with 320 between coats
3 coats of Advance, sanded 320 between coats. With this process I get next to no orange peeling and very smooth.

Here is photo of a panel I painted this morning. This has 2 coats of Advance primer and one coat of Advance Cloud white.

 

[mrFinpgh]

Thanks, JCLP.  It was actually some of your project photos that convinced me to give Advance a shot. 

I'll look into the different roller cover.  I work across from a SW, so I bet I can pick one up without much extra legwork.

Do you think the small nap of the Velour cover would be part of my problem?  I'd guess it's about 1/2 the length of the 3/8.

Fortunately, I can only paint about 1/2 the parts at a time when they are laid out on my table.. so I'll be able to A/B the two covers before I introduce any water into the mix.  Worst case, a little extra time spent sanding.

Thanks,
Adam

 

[Grasshopper]

That looks amazing!  I will be following this thread as I have 400' of trim to be painting.  I am resolved to spray with my Fuji HVLP, but I'm impressed with how good your brushwork looks.

Hi Adam,
I use BJ Advance all the time and have experimented with many paint brushes and roller sleeves. The roller sleeves I use are these ones. BJ recommends Microfiber roller sleeves for Advance.
Purdy Roller Sleeve
I use the 3/8" nap.
I don't thin out my paint at all. If you wish to you can but only use water up to 10%. So here is the process I use.
2 coats of advance primer sanded with 320 between coats
3 coats of Advance, sanded 320 between coats. With this process I get next to no orange peeling and very smooth.

Here is photo of a panel I painted this morning. This has 2 coats of Advance primer and one coat of Advance Cloud white.

 

[tiralie]

BJ recommends Microfiber roller sleeves for Advance.

Agreed. The microfiber or mohair rollers work very well. I like the mohair a bit better, but because they are so small in diameter you have to load them up frequently.

If you wish to you can but only use water up to 10%.

Agreed.

Here is photo of a panel I painted this morning. This has 2 coats of Advance primer and one coat of Advance Cloud white.

Looks really good JC. Did you take that photo with your SLR?

Tim

 

[JeremyH.]

Very nice JCLP.

It's impeccably hard to compete with factory paint jobs. I personally tend to think it's a waste of time on cabinets, given that factories deliver entirely smooth surfaces. However I've seen them flake off too, for unknown reasons. I hate white cabinets...

But throw a rock, hit ten customers saying, "oh I just want a simple white paint job, I don't need fancy wood." And then you tell them it costs 2x compared to many woods.

 

[JCLP]

Do you think the small nap of the Velour cover would be part of my problem?  I'd guess it's about 1/2 the length of the 3/8.
I've tried velour and it doesn't work well with paint. I use velour sleeves for lacquer only. Works great.
The microfiber or mohair rollers work very well. I like the mohair a bit better, but because they are so small in diameter you have to load them up frequently.
I wish our local stores would carry the mohair sleeves. I do want to try them. Maybe I should just order some. Off to my Sherwin Williams store tonight. I'll let you know how it works out.
Looks really good JC. Did you take that photo with your SLR?
Took the photo with iPhone. SLR is setup for Hockey photos and I didn't want to change my settings as I always shoot in Manual mode.

Do you like the red. Thought I would try the Glow function.
JC

 

[tjbnwi]

Your not putting enough on with the small nap roller.

Thinner and retarder are 2 very different things. Just because you thin a product it does not mean you've retarded the dry process.

My go to thinner is windshield washer fluid. The cheap blue stuff.

Tom

Do you ever have issue with any of the other additives over straight methanol of the washer fluid?  I know that they are adding detergents and silicone to some varieties.  I guess that doesn't keep it cheap and blue though. 

The additives evaporation rate will determine if it slows the drying rate.  Methanol is pretty quick as to compared to say water.

The fluid I use is purified water, ammonia, and methanol, with a touch of blue tint. There is far more water than methanol, I see no change in the paint dry time.

I would not use any fluid with other products in than the above.

Tom

 

[JeremyH.]

Do you think you've balanced the drying time with your thinner? What if it was just water, and not the other two that are quicker dry?

 

[mrFinpgh]

I think I've made a bit of progress this evening.

I sanded back the orange peel using 150, 220, and 320. This took a while.
It was smooth to the touch and I Vacuumed and wiped off between each grit.  Then I used a 3/8 Ultra Finish cover as per JCLP's preferences. 

The initial coat laid down a lot smoother with the 3/8 nap than the velour did.  I think I still might be rolling it on a little heavy - I laid it off with a mostly empty roller after a few minutes to clean up some pooling.  I'm trying to get good coverage, but also trying to give it a chance to level out.

Anyways, here's a picture of tonight's effort.  This is about 10 minutes after rolling it on.  I noticed a significant difference in appearance compared to last time, and I'm hoping that after a bit it will level out further..  there is still a little bit of texture happening but it's a big improvement.

[attachimg=1]

I'll follow up tomorrow and see how it looks when it has set up.

Thanks,
Adam

 

[JCLP]

Hi Adam,
Looks much better. Before applying another coat, wait at least 2 days for the paint to cure a little more. It will be dry to the touch the following day but under the surface is still not dry. When you sand it you should get a fine dust. If your paper starts to clog and you will know this because it will leave streaks on the surface after sanding then it is not dry enough to sand. When you sanded the primer you probably got a chalky dust, you should get the same when sanding the paint. This paint has a long curing time but when it is done it's rock hard. also, you will notice over time that the surface will get smoother as the paint cures and tightens up all the way through.
When applying the paint, do not over paint it. Apply the paint slowly with the roller and then pass over it again ever so lightly. The paint starts to level out as soon as you apply it. Going over it again will mess things up. Takes a bit, or maybe a lot, of practice. Good luck.
Cheers,
JC

 

[greg mann]

Hi Adam,
Looks much better. Before applying another coat, wait at least 2 days for the paint to cure a little more. It will be dry to the touch the following day but under the surface is still not dry. When you sand it you should get a fine dust. If your paper starts to clog and you will know this because it will leave streaks on the surface after sanding then it is not dry enough to sand. When you sanded the primer you probably got a chalky dust, you should get the same when sanding the paint. This paint has a long curing time but when it is done it's rock hard. also, you will notice over time that the surface will get smoother as the paint cures and tightens up all the way through.
When applying the paint, do not over paint it. Apply the paint slowly with the roller and then pass over it again ever so lightly. The paint starts to level out as soon as you apply it. Going over it again will mess things up. Takes a bit, or maybe a lot, of practice. Good luck.
Cheers,
JC

This is good advice and also the hardest thing for me to refrain from doing. When I see san imperfection I seem compelled to deal with it right away and have a hard time letting it be and dealing with it in due time. I wind up making a minor imperfection into a bigger one. [sad]

 

[mrFinpgh]

When applying the paint, do not over paint it. Apply the paint slowly with the roller and then pass over it again ever so lightly. The paint starts to level out as soon as you apply it. Going over it again will mess things up. Takes a bit, or maybe a lot, of practice. Good luck.
Cheers,
JC

I think this is the part I'm not getting as well as I could.  It sounds like this stuff needs to go on and then be left alone?  And not too much paint, not too little.

Tomorrow I'm going to break out the orbital and sand back everything until I've got a good smooth substrate again.  The second attempt went a lot better, but there was still more texture than I would like.  I've still got most of a gallon of advance left, and I'm going to get this!

-Adam

 

[tjbnwi]

I admire your perseverance.

While we're on the subject of rolling, if you ever roll SW Duration do not reverse the roller handle direction on a wall. The nap direction change will be distinguishable when the paint dries. Drives you wacky try to figure out why you screwed a wall up.

Tom