CARVEX- Square Cut ?

[pingvinlakrits]

Moderator edit--- this topic was started in a different thread. I split it because it is really a different discussion.

Seth

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I did not read through the entire thread but I would like to comment as I have tried the Carvex. I got to borrow one to try it out on the work site from my very generous Festool dealer.  

To sum it up the disappointment is that it does not give a straight cut on thick material. Cutting up a few studs, 2x4 and 2x2 even with a new, correct, blade will not give a straight cut so prepping beams and studs is not a suitable task for this jig saw. Well, to be honest the PS300 Trion does not do it well neither, at least not good enough. At first he did not believe me but when I showed him he could not dismiss the problem. After a few weeks he started getting returns on the Carvex and the people that returned them opted for the PS300 instead.

After going through pretty most of the major player jigsaws on the market I could lay my hands on I must say the only one that does not disappoint is still the old Bosch GST85PE. I praised the Bosch GST135 but with time the steel/aluminium foot gets warped and causes the machine to wobble. On two out of three 135's I have seen the warped foot. A poor construction though the saw itself is good.

I had hopes up for the pricey and innovative Mafell P1cc and tried it out on a demo - even on the rail it would not cut a straight cut unless it had the incredibly expensive specialty blade fitted to it. With the specialty blade it was good but still not too impressive - on the slightly warped benchtop that Mafell brought it did not cut too well and failed to do a straight cut (!) and without the specialty blade in place it did even worse than the Bosch jigsaws on the same material. The Mafell cuts impressive circles but it is still not a tool for fine carpentry or a replacement for a circular saw. I have yet to see a jig saw that is.  For cutting thicker material the ONLY jigsaw I trust at the moment is the Bosch saw, it always does well. It does not cut that fast - but as long as it gets it right I am in no hurry.  

I was hoping the Carvex would impress me, as I hoped the Mafell would too - but what is the point of having an expensive tilting sole as an "option" when the regular "precision" sole still will not give you a straight cut?

Back to the drawing board and come up with something that works guys.  

 

[fritter63]

Why would you do that? Jigsaws aren't meant for prepping studs, that's what a "skill" saw is for (or a chopsaw)

 

[woodguy7]

Henrik, do you mean straight cuts or square cuts ?  I have one of the early Carvex's & it is terrible at cutting square.  To be fair, they know about the fault & i have yet to send mine back for the repair but to be honest i don't hold much hope of it being much better after repair.

Has anyone that sent theirs back for repair noticed an improvement ?

 

[Deansocial]

I did not read through the entire thread but I would like to comment as I have tried the Carvex. I got to borrow one to try it out on the work site from my very generous Festool dealer.   

To sum it up the disappointment is that it does not give a straight cut on thick material. Cutting up a few studs, 2x4 and 2x2 even with a new, correct, blade will not give a straight cut so prepping beams and studs is not a suitable task for this jig saw. Well, to be honest the PS300 Trion does not do it well neither, at least not good enough. At first he did not believe me but when I showed him he could not dismiss the problem. After a few weeks he started getting returns on the Carvex and the people that returned them opted for the PS300 instead.

After going through pretty most of the major player jigsaws on the market I could lay my hands on I must say the only one that does not disappoint is still the old Bosch GST85PE. I praised the Bosch GST135 but with time the steel/aluminium foot gets warped and causes the machine to wobble. On two out of three 135's I have seen the warped foot. A poor construction though the saw itself is good.

I had hopes up for the pricey and innovative Mafell P1cc and tried it out on a demo - even on the rail it would not cut a straight cut unless it had the incredibly expensive specialty blade fitted to it. With the specialty blade it was good but still not too impressive - on the slightly warped benchtop that Mafell brought it did not cut too well and failed to do a straight cut (!) and without the specialty blade in place it did even worse than the Bosch jigsaws on the same material. The Mafell cuts impressive circles but it is still not a tool for fine carpentry or a replacement for a circular saw. I have yet to see a jig saw that is.  For cutting thicker material the ONLY jigsaw I trust at the moment is the Bosch saw, it always does well. It does not cut that fast - but as long as it gets it right I am in no hurry. 

I was hoping the Carvex would impress me, as I hoped the Mafell would too - but what is the point of having an expensive tilting sole as an "option" when the regular "precision" sole still will not give you a straight cut?

Back to the drawing board and come up with something that works guys.   

Oh REALLY i thought that would be obvious. Same with cutting studs, just use the right tool, a circular saw to gang cut em or a chopsaw

 

[Dan1210]

My psb300 gives impressive results and cuts very square for a jigsaw, more than happy, it may wander a little on 40mm worktop but i wouldnt expect anything else for a jigsaw blade

 

[zapdafish]

To sum it up the disappointment is that it does not give a straight cut on thick material. Cutting up a few studs, 2x4 and 2x2 even with a new, correct, blade will not give a straight cut so prepping beams and studs is not a suitable task for this jig saw. Well, to be honest the PS300 Trion does not do it well neither, at least not good enough. At first he did not believe me but when I showed him he could not dismiss the problem. After a few weeks he started getting returns on the Carvex and the people that returned them opted for the PS300 instead.

K A P E X   ;D

 

[Mavrik]

a) Clearly Hendrik doesn't like jigsaws much
b) I have a Trion and actually like it a lot ...

 

[AlexThePalex]

I have never seen a jigsaw that can cut square in thick stock. There was a time I was disappointed with that realisation, but now I've grow used to it and I don't think it is realistic to expect that from a piece of metal 1 mm thick that's vibrating at 3000+ RPM. 

 

[Mavrik]

I have never seen a jigsaw that can cut square in thick stock. There was a time I was disappointed with that realisation, but now I've grow used to it and I don't think it is realistic to expect that from a piece of metal 1 mm thick that's vibrating at 3000+ RPM. 

Exactly.
A physical limit to what can be done with a blade supported on only one side.
There are other tools in the box  [big grin]

 

[pingvinlakrits]

Ok, first of all you guys, I was pretty exhausted when I wrote my post. Sun baked and fatigued.

Firstly, I meant square cuts! Square, not straight. Forget about the stud part, let's just call it thick material - neither the PS300 nor the Carvex does well with square cuts in thick material. I have tried three PS300's on the same day and neither could do what the Bosch did. New blades? Check. Correct blade? Check. Festool blade? Check. Bosch blade? Check. Pendulum setting? Check. The Bosch GST85 and the old Bosch 60 cut square - even if ripping a stud a metre or so. (When working a tight attic you can't fit or swing all the gear and have to work with the bare minimum of stuff - stuff that works.) My colleague bought in to the PS300 but was very disappointed with it and I took it in for exchange but the brand new one was not better and then we tested mine as well and it sucked too. [eek] Three out of three is bad. So, I pulled out my old GST85, battle scarred, and it did really well - as did my colleagues old Bosch 60.  The dealer later on loaned us the new Carvex and we repeated the test only to find out it did not do better than the PS300. For plunge cuts the Bosch is much better too.

As for cutting studs/beams with circular saw, yes, they are more suitable for that but if you had seen the awkward sites we sometimes work you would see that swinging a circular saw could be dangerous. My TS55 and my TS75  I never use off the track - they feel awkward. Had they worked for that job I would have used them - of course.

Most of the cuts I do in beams and studs and such (small outtakes and "notching")  I do by hand with a japanese type saw and sometimes a rought cut with a jigsaw - I would not use a circ saw for these cuts. It is hard to explain but we are not talking about cutting down studs to length (For that I use a Makita LS1016) here but rather on site decks in various terrain and such. For some joints I start out with the Makita mitre saw and finish off with the jigsaw/hand saw. But sometimes there is not an option to drag a five metre long beam to the chop saw over broken terrain - nor shifting the chop station. I'd much rather stroll over with the jap and jig saw. I know what tool does what but I also know when the situation can be solved with "lesser gear" without compromising the finished product.

Maybe having twelve different saws at work is the american way of building a deck but I can neither afford it nor stomach to haul it around. Gear gets stolen frequently from open air job sites so we have to pack things up before lunch and going home. My colleague keep reminding me that his father didn't even have electric saws when he built the stuff we do. But he managed anyway and with that in mind I get what I need - and not what I want. The Festool PS300 and the Carvex does not meet either criteria.

Mavrik: no, clearly I don't like jigsaws so much.  But I like the GST 85PE - a lot.  ;D
I don't like reciprocating saws either for building stuff - but for unbuilding they are great.

To finish off my rant I can also say that it is not too often I get to do this type of job so investing in a few more saws is not an option. I built a two storey wooden house from scratch two years ago together with my colleague while my best friend had a contractor with five guys building him another two storey wooden house and now two years later his house is all cracked up at the joints inside - like everywhere - and have sagged considerably due to two harsh winters and the house settling. All rooms have to be recaulked and repainted, together with replacing door trims. They had all the gear needed - and more.

The house I helped my colleague build for a client - at the same time - has not sagged at all and we counted two hair line splits/cracks in the finished interior last week and the owner claimed the building had only settled a tenth of an inch - two mm - from his reference points, all according to a structural engineer.
The foundation is similar and both houses are built on solid rock.  We did not use all the saws available on the market and the beams were manually sawn and joined from selected wood. My client was in awe and my friend is in denial.  My colleague who is an experienced old school woodworker has taught me "manual" workarounds for a lot of stuff I usually would think I would need electric powered saws for. Sure, we took a little while longer building but it sure ended up something that will stand proud for quite some time - at a fourth of the cost of my best friends house. When we started the contruction the client offered to buy us a nail gun but my colleague said - with a grim smile - I needed to be broken in and said no. So we nailed it all by hand, hammer was swinging a few hours a day but I had no problems with that - except I was sore after the first week. Haha. Then it wore off. Phew!

If anyones finds or makes the perfect Jigsaw - please let me know!  [big grin] Until then I stick to my old guns...

 

[tbellemare]

Henrik:

The thing you didn't mention in your preparation checklist is adjusting the blade guides. To adjust the carbon guides on the Trions:

• unplug the saw
• mount the blade you will use
• pull the blade all the way out
• set the pendulum action to "3"
• push the blade forward
• close the carbon guides until they will hold the blade forward
• open the guides until the blade just snaps back

With the blade guided properly by following the above procedure, you should get square cuts in even 4" thick hardwood. If you are trying to scroll, set the pendulum action to "0".

Tom

 

[BMH]

I agree with Henrik. I use the PS 300 to notch and cut 4x6 material while I was building decks and railing. It does a great job and saves time and my back as I usually work alone. It gives straight cuts but not squared cuts. I use my RAS 115 with 24 gritt to help square up thinks where needed and the Japanese saw when I need a perfect cut. On my last deck I build I used the LS 1016, PS 300, RAS115 and my Panasonic drill that was the only power tools that came out on the project.

Bruce

 

[Timtool]

i used a trion for small precise work in thin pieces and it worked quite good, though it doesn't seem to have the punch for tougher work.
i own a Bosch GST 135 and it's a great saw, i agree the sole could have been engeneered better and the 90 degree stop is not precise enough. but once it's set up it makes square cuts. i even use it for curved cuts in solid wood worktops, with the pendulant action out, it makes smooth and square cuts that require just light sanding before finishing.

 

[Bob Marino]

I agree with Tom and think he outlined the procedure well. The only points I would add are using Festool's Trion blades item 490179 or an equivalent long, thick blade with a fairly aggressive pitch and go at a steady speed, not too fast. Four inch stock is approaching the limit of what any jigsaw can cut - let alone cutting straight and square.
I was working at the Festool booth some years back and they did demo the Trions with  3"+ hardwood stock  (not 100% sure of exact thickness - could have been 4"). After cutting, they put a square on it to check and it was perfect.
I would also add that all the stars  must be in alignment (correct blade, carbon guides set right, proper aggressive orbit, correct speed on the saw, feed rate,  as well as proper 2 handed stance, total concentration and practice) and if any one of those are missing, you won't get the perfect, square cut.  Even those skilled with a jigsaw may have to make practice cuts.

Bob

 

[flair woodworks]

I agree with Tom and think he outlined the procedure well. The only points I would add are using Festool's Trion blades item 490179 or an equivalent long, thick blade with a fairly aggressive pitch and go at a steady speed, not too fast. Four inch stock is approaching the limit of what any jigsaw can cut - let alone cutting straight and square.
I was working at the Festool booth some years back and they did demo the Trions with  3"+ hardwood stock  (not 100% sure of exact thickness - could have been 4"). After cutting, they put a square on it to check and it was perfect.
I would also add that all the stars  must be in alignment (correct blade, carbon guides set right, proper aggressive orbit, correct speed on the saw, feed rate,  as well as proper 2 handed stance, total concentration and practice) and if any one of those are missing, you won't get the perfect, square cut.  Even those skilled with a jigsaw may have to make practice cuts.

Bob

I've tried the Trion in the showroom on a piece of hardwood at least 2.5" thick to do a curvy cut and while it took a while (versus a bandsaw), I got a clean cut with no burning that was very close to square.  It could have been perfectly square even but I didn't check it with a square.  I was impressed.

 

[pingvinlakrits]

Hey, new topic on this. I don't mind.

Tom (and Bob), thank you for the detailed procedure and explanation. However it was followed to the letter during the testing as that is how I normally set things up. Also, I find it strange that the Bosch saw does what the Festool is supposed to do - without the fuss. Just pop the blade in, tighten and cut away.

My take on this is that the blade heats up too fast on the Festool jigsaw, causing it to deviate from a square cut. Perhaps because of the side clamping Trion thingy.

The Bosch 135 started out great and produced square cuts and also had less vibration than the PS300. However, my colleagues sole warped after some use and after some time my sole warped too! The sole is made out of aluminium and steel but the construction is too weak - especially considering the weight/performance of the jig saw. That is why I went back to the old GST85PE. No fast blade change, but I can live with that. The sole is steel and quite solid. I have used the GST 85 for quite a few years and it does stand up well to heavy use. When doing on site window rot repair we use it to plunge in and cut off old window frames and sometimes you hit an old screw or a thick nail. The Festool PS300 would not withstand the same abuse and was kicking like a mule trying to do what the Bosch saw does.

Before anyone thinks I am on a bashing campaign against Festool I should declare that I am in over my head with Festool and I have perhaps too many of those darling green and blacks; sanders, saws, routers, vacs, drills, Domino, CS50 and CS70 and more - but when tools don't work as they are advertised I call it as I see it. I am very pleased all in all but I have some of that creeping drill syndrome on my C15 - it sometimes keep rotating ever so slowly after I release the trigger. That sucks too.  :'(

 

[pingvinlakrits]

Zapdafish; you sponsor me and I'll get one.  [wink]

 

[Bob Marino]

Hey, new topic on this. I don't mind.

Tom (and Bob), thank you for the detailed procedure and explanation. However it was followed to the letter during the testing as that is how I normally set things up. Also, I find it strange that the Bosch saw does what the Festool is supposed to do - without the fuss. Just pop the blade in, tighten and cut away.

My take on this is that the blade heats up too fast on the Festool jigsaw, causing it to deviate from a square cut. Perhaps because of the side clamping Trion thingy.

The Bosch 135 started out great and produced square cuts and also had less vibration than the PS300. However, my colleagues sole warped after some use and after some time my sole warped too! The sole is made out of aluminium and steel but the construction is too weak - especially considering the weight/performance of the jig saw. That is why I went back to the old GST85PE. No fast blade change, but I can live with that. The sole is steel and quite solid. I have used the GST 85 for quite a few years and it does stand up well to heavy use. When doing on site window rot repair we use it to plunge in and cut off old window frames and sometimes you hit an old screw or a thick nail. The Festool PS300 would not withstand the same abuse and was kicking like a mule trying to do what the Bosch saw does.

Before anyone thinks I am on a bashing campaign against Festool I should declare that I am in over my head with Festool and I have perhaps too many of those darling green and blacks; sanders, saws, routers, vacs, drills, Domino, CS50 and CS70 and more - but when tools don't work as they are advertised I call it as I see it. I am very pleased all in all but I have some of that creeping drill syndrome on my C15 - it sometimes keep rotating ever so slowly after I release the trigger. That sucks too.  :'(

Henrik,

Perhaps, the guides on the Festool saw were a tad too tight - I blued up a few blades because of that.
Anyhow, I would hate to think you'd get bashed because you had a less than positive experience with the jigsaw and another brand worked well for you. I don't have that Bosch, and my experience with the Trion is different than yours. But I value both your opinions and your taking the time to explain your experience.  Feedback is critical, (positive and negative)  IMHO, otherwise we all tend to get complacent.
This just may get me (and others) looking around for some 4" boards to cut, to do some double checking.
I'll say thanks!

Bob
  Bob

 

[Wooden Lungs]

have to say my carvex has really impressed me! have the 110v one and on general sheet goods its fantastic.jigsaws are not designed for stud work.

 

[justinmcf]

hi wooden lungs.
while i agree that jigsaws in general are not designed for stud work, i think henrik is trying to state that the material he is cutting is between 35mm - 50mm.
a good quality jigsaw with the correct blade should be able to cut square at this depth.
the fact that henrik cannot cut square at this depth tells me that the carvex has its faults.

if this is indeed the reason for the carvex being postponed in the u.s. then i am very impressed with festool for not bringing it to market in that country.
i want to purchase the carvex, but i am happy to wait and see how the issue is handled in the u.s. [popcorn]