ct 33 performance (overperfomance)

[Bill in seattle]

My ct 33 was acting a little sluggish and letting some dust go at the tools. a look at the vacuum gauge I have on my blast gate confirmed the obvious, 2.5'' vac. I popped the top open and, whooa! Overload, (though nothing new around here)
The bag had filled to its gills and yet the suction was still sufficient to keep pulling. It pulled the intake out of the socket and filled on top of the bag and proceeded to cake the filters, then fill the 50mm hose to the blast gates and partially fill that too!
The ct is a massive performer even when stuffed to the gills. The dust is primarily solid surface, very dense and heavy. The bag weighs about 40lbs when filled.
One thing I'd like to point out and why I took pics is look at the motor area of the vac. It is pretty much spic and span, clean as a whistle, virtualy dust free even after sucking dust like this for 8+ years now. These units can work in some incredible and demanding conditions.
I had burned thru 6 other vacs in a few short years before I put in the ct. 2 actually caught fire.
I'm sure others have enjoyed this bag busting overfill, but for those who are contemplating a new vacuum and wonder why they should go for a ct vrs another, heres a few pictures to reason over.

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I did some vacuum checks on the hose sizes and heres what I came up with If your wondering.
hose only:
empty bag        50mm hose 9''    36mm hose 8''  27mm hose 7''
full bag(very)    50mm hose 3.5  36mm hose 3''  27mm hose 2.5''
my blast gate loses about 2-3'' (might be time to seal up leaks again)
the bigger the hose the more vacuum ,but lower velocity. the smaller the hose, lower vacuum but more velocity.

Bill in seattle

 

[alg]

Bill,

Looks like you are doing a good job posting the pictures. I appreciate your tips. Watching what you are able to do with the CT33 convinced me that I (as a woodworking hobbyist) will never push it to its limits.

Al G

 

[CharlesWilson]

And when the bag is stuffed to the gills, what tools do you use to pry it out?

 

[mysterium]

Bill,

Are you using one of the re-usable "Longlife Filter Bags" in your CT?

jim

 

[Bill in seattle]

And when the bag is stuffed to the gills, what tools do you use to pry it out?

My good old festool fingers, then a ct mini to slurp up the wayward free dust radicals that escaped.

 

[Bill in seattle]

Bill,

Are you using one of the re-usable "Longlife Filter Bags" in your CT?

jim

Yes, all thou I do notice a little less vacuum than compared to paper bags. Not a big deal thou, mostly due to the density and fine powdery dust of solid surface, wood  dust doesn't seem to suffer. I would chew thru hundreds of paper bags regularly, the long life bag pays for itself in 6 boxes of bags. Well worth it in my opinion.
I do put paper bags in when I have to do some nasty materials, that way I just get rid of the bag. Some calcium carbonate materials smell like rotten death warmed over when cutting and grinding. Some things are not priceless.

Bill

 

[semenza]

Hi,

      I had a similar  over filling occurrence.  It is probably the only time my Festool equipment actually cost me time.  I have my CT connected to a home made pipe set up (see pic)  I was sawing away- the suction is so good that by the time I realised it wasn't picking up the dust as well, it had filled nearly the entire hose and pipe!  It took about an hour to clear the dust out of the system.  
     Thanks for taking the vac measurements. I think I may add a gauge into the line somewhere so that I can check it and avoid future incidents.

Seth

 

[Ned]

...the suction is so good that by the time I realised it wasn't picking up the dust as well, it had filled nearly the entire hose and pipe!  It took about an hour to clear the dust out of the system. 

Note to self--If I build a system like Seth's, include cleanouts in the design.

 

[semenza]

...the suction is so good that by the time I realised it wasn't picking up the dust as well, it had filled nearly the entire hose and pipe!  It took about an hour to clear the dust out of the system. 

Note to self--If I build a system like Seth's, include cleanouts in the design.

  Good idea. Nothing is glued so I could pretty easily add a couple  " T " s with caps.  The only thing to consider is that I was going for as few joints and turns as possible. So as not to downgrade performance. But performance doesn't seem to be a problem.  That is one reason I used conduit- it comes in those nice smooth curves.

Seth

 

[Ned]

...the suction is so good that by the time I realised it wasn't picking up the dust as well, it had filled nearly the entire hose and pipe!  It took about an hour to clear the dust out of the system. 

Note to self--If I build a system like Seth's, include cleanouts in the design.

  Good idea. Nothing is glued so I could pretty easily add a couple  " T " s with caps.  The only thing to consider is that I was going for as few joints and turns as possible. So as not to downgrade performance. But performance doesn't seem to be a problem.  That is one reason I used conduit- it comes in those nice smooth curves.

Seth

What about creating an access door in the conduit?  Or making sure that one or more of the joints is a bit loose for easy disassembly and taping it for use?

If you're going to use plumbing parts, use "sanitary tees"--one path around the corner doesn't have the sharp turn.

Ned

 

[rodwolfy]

Bill,

I don't know what kind of a work environment you're dealing with, but have you thought of a cyclone separator? I bought a Clearview mini-cyclone last month after reading several recommendations here.

When I got it home, I threw out my old shopvac motor and mounted the Clearview on the old Shopvac (which has wheels) and then made a new lid out of plywood. It is amazing how much of the extremely fine dust that goes down the Clearview and not into the vacuum. I used it first on my Fein with a HEPA filter and couldn't even get a pinch of dust. I was just thinking that if you are dealing with a large capacity of dust, it would be much easier to pre-filter it into a larger shopvac container or barrel on wheels and then empty that, instead of changing out the Festool vac bags?

Rod

 

[Bill in seattle]

Bill,

I don't know what kind of a work environment you're dealing with, but have you thought of a cyclone separator? I bought a Clearview mini-cyclone last month after reading several recommendations here.

When I got it home, I threw out my old shopvac motor and mounted the Clearview on the old Shopvac (which has wheels) and then made a new lid out of plywood. It is amazing how much of the extremely fine dust that goes down the Clearview and not into the vacuum. I used it first on my Fein with a HEPA filter and couldn't even get a pinch of dust. I was just thinking that if you are dealing with a large capacity of dust, it would be much easier to pre-filter it into a larger shopvac container or barrel on wheels and then empty that, instead of changing out the Festool vac bags?

Rod

Hi Rod,
Work environment, hmmmmm?
Filthy, dirty,nasty,smelly, extremely dusty, often very wet, standing in a puddle with a electric water fed grinder spraying water all over the place like kids with super soaker's on energy drinks (REALLY). As well as eyeball rattling deafeningly loud, lets me know the cutting tools ARE working or way past dull, its a fine line. Holding on to Carpal tunnel breaking vibrational tooling with a death grip because the piece your trying to make a cutout in cost several thousands of dollars and the homeowners wife picked that piece special and there are NO more.
Theres a small sampling of the shop side. You can't eat off my floor  because the non-festool tools make a mess,thou I do honor the 5 second rule, used to be three but sometimes it takes a few extra seconds to find it.
Most of you already know about working in the homeowners home. Except I usually get the added joy of being one of the last workers in a 98% done remodel or new construction bazillion dollar project, or so they say. The check writers usually hovering above you telling you every good, bad , right, wrong and ugly detail of everyone and anyone who has done anything in their house. Oh, and don't hit the walls, don't walk here or there, keep the door closed, the  painters and touch up guy is ALL done. But most of all DON'T make a mess. Smugly I smile and happily go about doing my job. I really like what I do (99% of the time).

For the dry fine dusty side of dust collection I have specifically downsized and use the ct 33 for its great high speed low volume collection ability and to dispose of the dust in smaller batches at a time. Heres why, its easier to handle a small bag, they often weigh over 40 lbs due to density of material. Its quicker to change out the smaller bags = time savings. Its less messy, unless they overfill. And mostly its less expensive in waste disposal, a couple of bags fit easily into the trash cans for regular garbage pickup at no extra cost. We pay by the size of the containers here. Emptying the old cyclone box yards at a time or by barrels,big bags or truck was costly, messy, time consuming, inconvenient and had to be hauled to special dumps sometimes. Getting rid of it in small quantity's as you need to has just been more successful, at least for me.
I looked at the clearview system and its not bad thou it was just one more thing to deal with and take up more space. the ct's bag is the pre filter equivalent and does a phenominal job. If my system was used more for big chips and coarse dust I could see a good use to separate it out  first.
Each user must weigh out their options and choose a system that works for their applications, that is one of the keys to good dust control. Festool looks at this as a starting point with their vacuums and tools.  You won't get it all but you sure can try too.
Thanks for your thoughts,
Bill

 

[rodwolfy]

Bill,

I know of what you speak! I did roofing to pay my way through college. Worked out of Ballard and did all sorts of jobs (the company, Anderson Roofing, only worked word of mouth. Booked about 3 months out on average). I recall some jobs out in Mercer Island and Laurelhurst that were like that. Remodels of $2M+ on the water and they wanted the roof on at the same time as the remodelers inside...

Rod

 

[Bru]

Bill just mounted a cyclone to my CT22. Works like a charm. Took a 1/2" piece of ply cut to fit the tool holder, notched for the tool holder clips. Mounted a 5 gallon bucket, made a cage out of extra 3/4" dowel and hardwood scraps. Added a hold down on the other side, one screw and a couple pieces of hardwood. Cyclone I bought at Woodcraft, three fittings, one hose clamp, and some clear hose, about $55 total. Use the cage as a handle to drag to CT around the shop, great place to hang power cord and vac hose.

 

[semenza]

Bill just mounted a cyclone to my CT22. Works like a charm. Took a 1/2" piece of ply cut to fit the tool holder, notched for the tool holder clips. Mounted a 5 gallon bucket, made a cage out of extra 3/4" dowel and hardwood scraps. Added a hold down on the other side, one screw and a couple pieces of hardwood. Cyclone I bought at Woodcraft, three fittings, one hose clamp, and some clear hose, about $55 total. Use the cage as a handle to drag to CT around the shop, great place to hang power cord and vac hose.

Hi,

    Looks good.      Is the lid , the cyclone?  Also you might want to find one of the other cyclone threads and add this. Or start a new one, so that people looking for cyclone stuff can find it quickly.  Your set up looks simple, and cost effective.

Seth

 

[Bru]

Yes the lid is the cyclone $20  at woodcraft. Really works well, I filled about 1/3 of the 5 gallon bucket to test. Didn't seem to lose any suction. Was using my domino and just the plain open hose on a messy work station. Very easy to dump, disconnect hose from vac, unlock tool clamps and third added clamp and dump. KISS principle. I got the idea from another cyclone (Dust Deputy) post, and thought why not on the vac for portability. Doesn't add much weight and is easier to move around the shop, really the only loss is you can't stack your tools. I found stacking was a pain anyway the tool I needed next always seemed to be on the bottom. Thanks for the reply I will post the pictures on the other tread also.

 

[semenza]

Bru,

        How tall is it from the bottom of the bucket to the top of the highest point on the lid? 

        Could that handle on the lid be removed / cut off without screwing up the function?

                        What I am thinking is that maybe the whole thing could be fit into a Systainer five  with a Tanos systainer extension or two. Possibly with some of the hoses/ plumbing built in. With the idea of making the unit more portable and less bulky.

        Also , Bru or anyone else, I am assuming that the container for this has to be round in order to work properly. But maybe not?

Seth

 

[porkchop]

A cyclone-tainer? pre-seperator? Good idea. Seems it could work with a few baffles to drop the big stuff out. Might be kind of noisy though.

 

[Bru]

Sorry Seth I just saw your post today. What a great idea you have. Cyclones are very easy to make, I've made two for the shop out of garbage cans. If you look at a cyclone lid you will have a good idea on how they work. Basically on the intake side I mount a 90 degree pointed along the bend of the can or systainer. That way you create the vortex effect, (I have not tried but you could include a baffle, though it seems to work well without) and a straight outtake to vac mounted behind the intake. I don't know if the box would have any effect over the roundness of a barrel or bucket. I just love the great idea's that come up in this FOG. Sorry it took so long to get back to you. Bru
PS you might have to add a seal to the systainer so fine dust doesn't spew out the sides of the lid.
Thinking out loud you could route the hose below the lid  on the left side front and out to vac. on the right side front, giving you a horseshoe effect. A baffle might help in this type of situation. Seems like a couple connectors glued on would let you connect your hoses. Going in below the lid would limit the amount of collection a little. Let us know if you try it and how well it works out. One big advantage is you could still stack your tools. Good Luck
Seth the lid is maybe 2" thick and I use a 5 gallon bucket maybe 20" tall, I'll check next time I'm out in the shop.

 

[Dave Ronyak]

Although I have an engineering degree, I am no expert in fluid design.  Nevertheless, I think two priniciples will apply:

1) routing the debris laden input hose into the side of any large chamber and then drawing the air out through another hose not in line with the stream from the inlet, e.g. in the top or at a higher elevation than the inlet, is going to cause a lot of the debris to fall out of the airstream and into the bottom of the box, no matter what its shape.  This is due to the drop in velocity within the large chamber  (your bucket or Systainer).  Any simple baffle of "snow fence" grating within the box would also help to capture much of the debris.  The lighter (smaller) particles are harder to separate from the air.
2) a round, actually conical, chamber with a tangentially arranged inlet will work best because the resulting vortex spinning action causes the debris to be thrown outward toward the walls of the cylinder/cone (remember basic physics - centrifugal force?), and gravity causes the debris to fall to the bottom of the spin chamber.  The round / conical shape helps to reduce friction within the spinnning airstream and thus power and overall velocity losses in the hoses of the system.

You could tinker with your ideas using simple wooden or MDF boxes.  I'd say cardboard, but the vacuum is likely to cause them to collapse if everything is well sealed.

Dave R.