Decisions....

Chappy

Member
Joined
Dec 3, 2010
Messages
17
Greetings all, been lurking here for a while now but only recently registered. I have a decision to make... SWMBO has decided that I can add some occupied systainers to my "pile of stuff". Now,  the men in my family all seem to get bitten by the woodworking/remodeling bug in their late 30's or so and while I used to snicker and scoff about this I have been symptomatic for about four years now. I have various tools supplied by big box stores in my shop at this point, but Festool's products just seem to "click" for me and I just have to have one, possible two, of every product they make.

My quandary at this point is where to start. I am jumping in with a budget of around 4-5k USD  and am having a tough time making a decision. I am getting more and more into making cabinets and furniture so the only items I am sure of at this point are a TS55, MFT/3, CT36, OF1400 and a Domino set... I start running into a budget wall in that I really want a Kapex as well as a couple of sanders... also, it seems pretty easy to eat large chunks of capital on "accessories".  [scratch chin]

I sit around thinking about projects I have done and what would have been useful, what projects I need to do, and what I would LIKE to do... and the best answer I can come up with is "spend more money". I have been trying to think of a good rational argument for just getting one of everything but so far that just ain't happenin'.
 
Hi Chappy,

Let me be the first to give you a big hearty  [welcome]!  There are a lot of experienced Festool users here and you will get some great advice.  I think that you have a good set of tools listed as a starter set.  You might consider going to the CT26 instead of the CT36 to save some money -- same power, just not as much capacity, but cheaper replacement bags.  You could also swap the Domino set for the Kapex -- when you add the accessories into the mix, the Kapex is only a little more expensive.  I have only been into Festool tools for just over a year and had I known what I know now, I would probably have bought an MFT/3 to my mix from the start so this is one of my next purchases.  I would really try to add a sander or two to your initial list -- the Festool sanders are amazing.  There are a lot of ways to join wood together and the Domino is just one way -- granted, it is fast, easy and accurate...but, I am not sure I would have this in my initial purchase with so many other "essential" tools to buy.  I do not have one yet, but along with the MFT/3, it is next on my list.

Do you have other tools that you can use to supplement the Festools?

Enjoy your trip down the never-ending slippery slope!

Scot 
 
You will get plenty of responses and where you are starting is a good, no great place.
Avail yourself of package discounts  - TS 55/MFT/3 and CT 36 and 1400 saves some $$$.
Get at least one sander - Rotex or the ETS 150. Papers from 80-220 grit.
OF 1400 - get the guide stop and edge guide and router bits.
Saw - get splinterguards for the saw and rails and get the 106" rail
Get at least 1 pair of clamps - FSZ 120's are fine.
MFT - get the clamping elements.
CT 36 - vac filter bags, cleanup kit and da Boom Arm.
Domino - get the tenon assortment.

Also, get a good 6" jointer into your shop.

Bob

 
Start with your initial list and save some of the dough for accessories or things you find you need after the fact.  Don't worry about the Kapex for now, it is really a specialized tool for the installers out there although many have one "Because they want/have to have the best".  

Definitely get a sander, they are Festools best tools IMO.  ETS 150/3 is a good value but a RO150 is a better investment if you don't have sanders currently.

It is obvious to me that you have the green disease, and even if you blow your whole wad of dough there will still be tools you covet....So save some cash so you can fund your obsession for at least a year.  I guarantee you will be wanting more.

(Edit: Bob's post is a great place to start.  Of course if you get the jointer you have to get a dust collector.  I think a good planer is a bit more versatile)
 
If for shop use, I would get the CT26 and plan to add a Dust Deputy cyclone to it in the future. A boom arm is so useful and worth the price.
Sander start with an ETS150/3. Can do most everything just somewhat slower than an RO but with a better final finish. Can add other sanders later.
A Kapex would be nice and I have always craved one but really there are other lower cost options unless you are going pro.
An alternative to the Domino at far less cost is the DowelMax. It is EXTREMELY accurate although somewhat slower than the Domino. I have both and get far better results with the DowelMax.
MFT definitely! Two if you have the shop space and the second can be the basic version. And clamps.
No one has just one router. They multiply after dark. Plan on the 1400 and the 1010. The smaller 1010 is by far my most used router out of 8 I own.
TS55 and a LONG rail if you have the space to use and store it for sheet goods cutting.
T15/3 drill with all the extra chucks. Not essential until you need the features and then the price will seem cheap.
 
Take the long view - your starter kit will serve you well, but just make a few small projects.  Let your wife know how much nicer things you could build with a jointer, then a Kapex, etc.  Be sure to complement her on her good judgment.  "Gee hon, I'm glad you like your new armoire.  I never could have done it without that new drill."
 
You didn't say what other tools you presently own,

I tried to go completely Festool but finally realized, at least for me, that a good table saw was an important part of my shop.  I saved up and bought a SawStop contractor saw, my wife loves the fact that I have it.

The sanders and DC are absolutely wonderful, I use the tracksaw to break down ply but I've found that it is a lot less fussy to cut to final dimension with the TS. And with a cross cut sled I my cross cuts are dead on.

I have the OF1400 router and a triton Jigsaw, and haven't regretted buying one.  I have an older MFT, I use it mostly as a clamping station, I spend most of my time at my workbench when I'm working on a project.

Still can't get my head around the prices of the drills...............

I guess part of what will drive your decision is where you're working.  The Festool system is a wonder job site approach to woodworking.  If you're not going to be leaving the shop, then perhaps other alternatives like a good TS would make sense.  Then you can spend your other part of the budget on things that you will use every day. Or if you're having to break down your shop setup to put the car back, then the Festool system will be a great alternative.

Isn't it wonderful to have alternatives?

Jay
 
Welcome!

Eventually you will want a large band saw and maybe  joiner plainer.  With the TS55 you don't need a table saw; yes the 55 will not do dadoes but the 1400 will.
There are several routes to go depending on what you do for wood:
If you get dimensioned wood (at least one side flat) then there are 3 choices; Large drum sander like Jet Drum sanders, a plainer joiner or plainer (the small ones look attractive but aren't that useful), or a good set of hand planes.
If you can get rough lumber from an arborist  or sawyer then you will need a horizontal band saw and a good set of hand planes (or some expensive and exotic industrial gear).

Before I considered an plainer or plainer/joiner I would get a woodriver No 6 V3 from wood craft and try it.  It does as good a job as a joiner for edge and lap joints.  Hand planes are relatively inexpensive, they work green or dried wood, tearout and snipe are minimal, they are more flexible and you get exercise that otherwise you might pay for.

Before you get a expensive solution for joinery you will need a solution for cleanup and smoothing.  IMHO a good sander is the place to start; but something like the low angle block plane  and the chisel plane are good additions or in some cases alternates.  A good smoothing plane or scraper plane  leave a surface ready for sanding and work faster in difficult woods, even for easy or soft woods they are better IMHO.  They will do things simply that a sander will not e.g. remove glue lines.

+1 on save some money and spend it where it is needed.  Router bits can eat up a huge amount of money.  I just came across a set of router bits for $3500.

BTW the current WoodRiver (Wodcraft) V3 planes are a bargain.  I have a No6 and their lowangle variable mouth block planes ane they are on par  with the LV and LN planes.  The earlier WoodRivers got a bad rep due to poor QC; that seems to be solved with current production.
 
I appreciate the quick responses.

My shop is currently located in a rather old( pre 1920's at least) farm shed that has been repurposed several times over the years. This building is in bad enough shape that it needs a good bit of work... i.e. the metal roof really, really needs to be replaced, but the old rafter system is so shaky that I would need to replace everything from the headers up to safely handle a new roof.

We bought this place 3 years ago and have been pretty much non stop repair, build and upgrade. Our big expense so far has been our 8 stall Morton barn and eventually my shop/garage will be in another Morton building to hold the tractors, truck and other equipment and the old shed will be demolished ( it is a bit of an eye sore in its current location). The new building is anywhere from 6 months to 4 years away so you can see why I am reluctant to dump any money in the old termite trap. For this reason the portability of the Festool products really clicks for me... have you ever looked at something and it just felt right? The whole track saw, dust collection and overall integration just gives me a warm fuzzy feeling.

One thing I am wondering about is where to buy... my closest "local" brick and mortar is Woodcraft up in JAX. That is a 2 hour one way run for me and on top of that is paying sales tax, well, up front anyway... I know we ALL pay our use tax on internet purchases right?? So, do I avoid the trip and buy online?  I try to buy local but that is getting harder and harder it seems these days.
 
Woodcraft, Rockler, Highland, Lee Valley, McFeeley's, Tool Home, Lie Nielsen, and Peachtree; all are good and have online presences.  Amazon carries a lot of stuff and if you sign up for the "Prime" membership you get free 2nd day shipping.  Like you I prefer to support the local businesses; but that is getting steadily harder to do.

Give hand planes a try.  I did so because I am a somewhat analogous situation to you;  my current shop is makeshift and I can't get additional power to it.  That's why I decided to try hand planes for joinry and then for smoothing.  I haven't done much dimensioning yet.  I have 3 LN planes and the Woodriver No 6 I bought used.  In your situation I would hold off on heavy power equipment until not having a piece becomes painful.

BTW something that I didn't mention and didn't see was a good drill press.  Equipment that you aren't sure that you need can wait until you do need it as it sounds like you are not going to be a commercial shop.
 
CT26 - Domino - TS75 - ETS 150/3 and C12 would be by starting point.

Nothing better than buying heaps of new Festools [laughing]
 
Chappy said:
One thing I am wondering about is where to buy... my closest "local" brick and mortar is Woodcraft up in JAX. That is a 2 hour one way run for me and on top of that is paying sales tax, well, up front anyway... I know we ALL pay our use tax on internet purchases right?? So, do I avoid the trip and buy online?  I try to buy local but that is getting harder and harder it seems these days.

I'm not sure I'd consider a 4 hour car ride, "buying local."  You'll never get better service than what you receive from Bob or Tom, who both frequent the FOG.
 
+1 on buying online from Bob or Tom.  Their support is second to none.

If you are a long way from a brick and mortar, as I am, that Amazon prime account is a good idea for fast delivery on consumables like drill or router bits, sandpaper, etc. that you just gotta have asap.

Though its not much good for Festool, try Craigslist.org for good used machinery when you get the itch for the planer, jointer, bandsaw, drill press and other stuff Festool doesn't make.
 
Another thing I am dithering about is the age old dilemma.... TS 55 or TS 75??
 
Making the jump into Festool and having a nice budget like that is awesome.
As Bob mentioned, plan your purchase to take advantage of the combos:

TS55 + MFT3 combo.  The MFT comes with a 1040 rail (42"), plus the TS comes with a 1400 (55") rail standard.  So, from the get-go you've got those two rails as your standard start.

You can usually arrange to substitute (for cost diff.) guide rails if a larger/smaller size seems like a better long term choice.  Remember, you can always use a longer rail to make a shorter cut... but not the other way around.  So, as a suggestion, get the 75" with the TS, and using that with the 42", you can rip sheet goods, and cross-cut easily and conveniently.

CT26 + (take your pick here-- I'd suggest a sander like either Rotex) combo
You can usually arrange to substitute (for cost diff.) CT hoses and/or longer length hoses.  The 27mm hose works with every Festool (minus Kapex only?), but the 36mm hose has better pickup.  The 36mm IMO is ideal for the TS55 and the routers.
For $50 or so, Bob can supply you with a 36mm to 27mm adapter "tail", that then allows you to use every tool.  Well worth it, IMO.

I would personally advocate away from the Boom Arm, if you have a fixed-area shop.  The Boom Arm is fantastic if you're going to be moving the CT around a lot and want that overhead support in a bunch of different places.  But, if you'll be primarily in a stationary spot, you can build a boom-arm-like support for about $15 and in 30 minutes.

You should plan a decent amount for accessories.
Suggested first choices:  Clamping elements for the MFT, MFT "F-clamps", extra CT bags, probably a CT brush or crevice tool.  Just plan on about $200 for MFT and CT acessories.

So, with the above tools you can make simplistic projects.  Bookcases, squared tables, simple picture frames and boxes.  Heck you can even make cabinets and finish them.

Additional thoughts:
Domino:  The ultimate in a joinery tool.  You need the Domino tenons, and figure you'll wind up with at least one additional size of cutter.  Within a few months, you'll want more... so just plan that this kit will cost you $1000 total.  Now, there are a lot of ways to do joinery, many of which can be VERY inexpensive (e.g. handsaw cut M&T).  I *love* the Domino, and actually it was my first Festool.  But looking backward, and since you're looking to jump in, I wouldn't consider it a first-round purchase.  Second round, for sure.  [embarassed]

Routers:  Routers are the most versatile power tool, and the Festool routers have no peer.  There are a ton of other threads to help inform your decision of the OF1400 vs. the OF1010.  Definitely get one.  They're awesome.  Heck, get one of each and the MFK, too.  Seriously.   [wink]

Sanders:  There is a veritable armory of Festool sanders.  The widest and most plentiful area of Festool tools, it seems.  The Rotex kick butt, plain and simple.  They're a multi-use powerhouse that also has a finer touch when you need it.
For the time being, don't get overly caught up with all the specialized sanders (LS, DTS, DX, etc).  Later, when your projects have better defined your needs, you'll almost certainly pickup one or more of these.  But you can get away for a long time without, or using another method for those pesky corners.

With either of the above two tools, you're looking at a fairly sizable investment on accessories.  For sanders its a matter of sandpaper assortment.  Figure on about $75 to build a decent starter variety.
For the routers... yow.. You can pop $150 just on physical accessories (edge guide; rail adapter), and another $100-$150 easily on an entry-level variety of router bits and what-not.  Let's assume you already have a bunch?  1/2" or 1/4" shank?  If the former, the OF1400 is the way to go, to make use of your existing router bit inventory.

Miscellaneous:
Drills:  They rock, but ... they're drills.  You can drill and drive screws with many, many choices.  And you probably already have, like, 5 drills.  Right?
Save your bucks for Festool's prime players until you've run out of green & blue goodies, then complete the collection.   [big grin]

Kapex:  I don't have one, so I'm not really qualified to compare it to anything.  I really admire its marketed features, but just can't swallow that it's nearly triple the price of my current SCMS (Bosch 4410).  It's a budget buster for sure, and keep in mind you can get a Festool router AND Jigsaw, AND Rotex for the same overall price.  With the TS55 and MFT you can do all the same straightforward cuts that a miter saw does.  

Organization stuff:  Okay, you might not be ready for this, but if you get bit by the Systainer bug, there's a lot of spending that can occur.  Assuming you get a sander, you are best served organizing your sandpapers (e.g. Sys abrasive box).  If you get the router, you'll soon be needing the router bit Systainer to hold bits and various accessories.  A Sortainer is invaluable sitting atop your CT, always at the ready with clamps, bags, nozzles, pencils, rulers, etc, etc.

Good luck, and happy Festool'ing!  Please make sure you post follow-ups whenever you decide on your choices.  There are NO wrong answers on the green slide.
 
What everybody said plus:

You're not going to get the LR32 hole-drilling system right away, but down the line you may want to as I currently do.  With that said, the normal 55" guide rail is ~$94.50 while the LR32 55" guide rail with holes is only a buck more at ~$95.50.  The 95" rail is ~$240 while the 95" LR/32 rail is ~$264.  If ordering either the 55" or 95" rails I would definitely order the LR/32 version as it will have another use down the road potentially.  I ordered the normal 55" and now want to get the LR32 system - instead of paying $1 more upront I now need a whole new rail at $95.50 - see my point?

With the above said, would those that have the LR/32 system recommend the 55" or 95" rail?
 
I have a couple of the 55" LR32 rails and they were a better choice for me being able to use them as a regular guide rail or with the LR32 indexing system.  I know Kreg has the 95" model and likes it, so maybe if he sees this post he can comment on the benefits for him of the larger rail.
 
Chappy said:
Another thing I am dithering about is the age old dilemma.... TS 55 or TS 75??
Lots of threads on this one.
If you aren't getting a jointer soon, you probably won't need a 75.  The downside of "bringing the tool to the work" is that you have to lift the saw after each cut.  The extra weight of the 75 will add up at the end of the day.  Bottom line is that if you are cutting lumber 2 inches thick or so, you will need the 75 (or a band saw or a table saw...).

Another thing no one has mentioned yet... even after the 30 day return policy, you can put Festool on EBay or Craigslist and get most of what you paid back - they really hold their value.  So don't worry too much.  If you change your mind, there are folk out there who will ease your pain.

 
+1 on the Rotex 150 sander.

Bags for the CT 26 cost $31 for a 5-pack.
Bags for the CT 36 cost $35.50 for a 5-pack, or about 14.5% more than bags for the CT 26.

A 5-pack of CT 26 bags would hold about 26 * 5 = 130 L of waste.
A 5-pack of CT 36 bags would hold about 36 * 5 = 180 L of waste, or about 38.5% more than bags for the CT 26.

Thus the CT 26 would save you money over the CT 36 in the short term, but the CT 36 would save you money over the CT 26 in the long term, if you use it enough.

 
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