Dewalt owner's review of the Kapex + Domino 500 impulse buy (non-pro)

[batmanimal]

If you are going to start doing cabinet work you will need a router and the LR32 is HIGHLY recommended. Im not a huge fan of Festool routers its similar to the Kapex for me just not enough benefit over the others to justify the price difference and the non centering copy ring irritates me on such an expensive tool it just seems like for the money these basic bugs should be a non issue. For me my favorite plunge router is the Dewalt DW 621 the trigger is a little to get used too but otherwise its a solid machine and was way ahead of its time with the built in dust collection.  However it wont bolt up to the the LR32 base plate without getting creative.  So the 1010 is ideal for the LR32  MAfell makes some nice stuff but not sure I like it.  I dont like how the anti chip feature works mainly.  Otherwise it looks like a great saw.  However if you had went with the Festool you could have already had the LR32 track as part of the package.  Not sure how flush you are but if budget is an issue I would have kept the 780 return the kapex and get the LR32 & 1010 instead. Unless you have a crew or need a saw for at a site and shop 2 SCMS is overkill.  As I said though it really depends on budget and space. You will also need a good as large as possible cutting station. Its a process to develop a system that works for you and typically not cheap.  There is a whole list of accessories on your horizon. parallel guides, track hinge, MFT drilling systems, edge banding equipment, guide rail squares, and on and on. Good luck.

I wish Mafell/Bosch offered something comparable to the LR32. I know the Mafell saw can use the festool rails, so hopefully it would work on the LR32 track. I might just bring my Mafell to the dealer and check it out in person.

I was thinking of selling the Dewalt saw / mobile stand combo, but I am weirdly attached to it. (It is so hard for me to let go of any of my tools; yet, one of the justifications for investing in Festool is that I know that, worst case, I could likely recoup much of what I spent on the Festool product in the resale market...) I am planning to use the Dewalt to build a treehouse once the weather clears up. It is so good for cutting PT posts and beams.

For cutting station, I can only fit a ~4-6' wide table in my space for the track saw MFT, so am thinking I will put everything on wheels, and have an auxilliary set up like the dashboard outrigger that I can add as needed, and move into position after moving the cars out of the garage.

I also need to figure out how to do the long cuts on the miter saw. I am planning to use the MFT as the extension table to the immediate left of the saw. I was thinking of using the dashboard pws long fence as the extension fence and adding a cut stop to that fence. (I have gotten lots of good ideas from the workshop section of this forum!)

 

[batmanimal]

I had a different experience with the 780 from Dewalt. Mine was deadly accurate and I had to pull it out every time I needed it. Absolutely nothing wrong with that saw in terms of accuracy and many high end trim carpenters use it.

Now that you have some cool stuff, take a beat and practice making some real cabinets before proceeding. It's an eye opener. IMO Domino is overkill for most cabinetry where screws are used to assemble. I use it because I have it when building boxes but it sure isn't necessary.

You'll soon find you need or want a lot of stuff like the previously mentioned parallel guides, a small table saw, routers, a router table, shelf boring jigs, finishing equipment. I've been down your path and I'm speaking from experience. I went out and acquired a bunch of Festool then had to teach myself all the cabinetry and remodeling skills to use them. I'm not knocking the idea, but if you're coming from the occasional outdoor project to wanting to make nice stuff to go inside your house there's a lot of reading, YouTubing, researching, and thinking ahead of you.

[2cents]
Matt

Thank you, Matt - I appreciate your advice here

My plan is to start with garage and shop cabinets, then a sort of locker/mudroom cabinet, if that goes well. Then, sort of gradually make my way inside the house. I have an oddly shaped closet that no one except me sees the inside of that would be a good candidate for some custom shelves and drawers.

Everything I have learned about construction and woodworking has been from my dad, contractors doing work at my home, books, and (biggest resource) Youtube. There was a very good thread on here a while back about recommended Youtube channels that I greatly enjoyed, sharing it here in case others are poking around and needing something to do/watch for endless hours:https://www.festoolownersgroup.com/fun-games-diversions/best-woodworking-youtube-channels/

I agree that there is nothing wrong with the Dewalt saw; the lack of precision mostly comes from user error (mine). I had better luck with a smaller old Hitachi MS that my contractor let me borrow. I think the smaller blade made it easier for me to apply the necessary force with less deflection.

 

[Svar]

I wish Mafell/Bosch offered something comparable to the LR32.

They do, FSN OFA 32 Kit. Mafell does it with DDF machine.
View attachment 1
View attachment 2

 

[batmanimal]

I wish Mafell/Bosch offered something comparable to the LR32.

They do, FSN OFA 32 Kit.
[attachimg=1]

Brilliant!! Thank you.

Although ... I suppose I would need the LR32 anyhow if I went with a Festool router, since the Festool would not work on a Bosch track.

But glad to see that Bosch does offer that. (Sorry, my mind is tired today)

 

[Ron B]

Has anyone used the guide from ToolCurve instead of the LR32?  It is "ToolCurve LR 32 Hole Drilling System for Festool 1400 Router & Rail Adapter" on E-bay, and about 1/10 the price of the LR32.  They might have something for Bosch or Dewalt.  Sorry, could not get a picture to post. 

 

[mino]

...
Although ... I suppose I would need the LR32 anyhow if I went with a Festool router, since the Festool would not work on a Bosch track.

Not necessarily. The Bosch plate has many mouting holes in it, not sure if ones for OF1010 are included. But even if not, adding holes or cobbling up a mounting for a different router is not really an issue. Besides, it is way cheaper than the Festool plate.

For the LR32-ish system to work, the router does -not- have to be "centered" on the plate exactly which makes an "incompatible" router mounting almost always possible.
Ther my advice is to skip dedicated "LR32 rail positioning from the edge" contraptions and just use/get a parrallel guide system to position the rails reliably using the other edge as reference.

I paid bout $300 for my LR32 minimal set from Festool, and the positioning aids are nice. But getting "just" the plate and money put into into e.g. a TSO PG would have been a better investment.

Ref FS/2 versus Maffel - that is an endless topic. Each system shines at different areas so some love that, some that. In practice both work well enough and the differences are more in the nuances.

Were starting a new, I would advise the FS/2 system as it is the more versatile one. But either system is good for most cases, as long as you stick to buying the holy rails (aka rails with holes).
Besides, the MT55 is arguably the better saw. And while it works on the FS/2 rails, it is really designed for the Bosch system to shine.

 

[mino]

Has anyone used the guide from ToolCurve instead of the LR32?  It is "ToolCurve LR 32 Hole Drilling System for Festool 1400 Router & Rail Adapter" on E-bay, and about 1/10 the price of the LR32.  They might have something for Bosch or Dewalt.  Sorry, could not get a picture to post.

Would not see it so rosy.

Firstly, it replaces just the plate which is like $150 so that is 1/3 not 1/10.

Secondly, based on its geometry, it will never be as accurate as a plate with a router on it both sliding on the rail. Whether the Bosh or the Festool one. Just geometrically (triangle of contact points and router spindle position) it should have 2x to 3x the accuracy error, assuming everything worked well and was tight.

Lastly, it will likely be a pain to use compared to a sled with a router on it. With both the Festool and Bosh systems you use one hand to -both- push the sled AND release the stop while using the other hand to plunge the router.
Here with the router being that far from the rail AND not riding on it but on the stock, I can see that workflow very tricky if possible at all.

In other words, if tight on money just get the Bosh plate for $60 or so and leave these things to the other poor souls ...

 

[afish]

Ill be short and blunt since I dont want to retype a bunch of stuff I have already said. (some may disagree but Ive been doing this a awhile and tried just about everything) but everyone is different.  If you search my user name and keywords like LR32 and domino, MFT etc. you will have plenty of reading but I will recap. quickly

3d printed junk = pass, there's a place for it but not as a lr32 replacement.
LR32 = great system.  I disagree with not getting the front edge (setback) guides and actually have a good post (use search) about using the LR32 in combination with a MFT for batch processing but you need the front edge guides for the first panel after that the MFT does the rest.  Hands down the fastest way to process multiple panels. The kit you want is the 583290 Just FYI you can use a router other than festool with the LR32 you will need to be creative. 
DDF40 = great tool and I own it along with the Domino 500 the DDF40 is used way more than the Domino but you can see those posts with search too.  I will say that I have gone through this DDF40 with a fine tooth comb lately since im making some jigs for it and discovered that I have about .008" difference between the edge of my flip down fence and the base.  Not sure if they are all like this and I can work around it by adjusting my CNC files but using something like the guide they sell and drilling from either end might cause issues.  Otherwise I really like the DDF40 and the Domino which also needed tuning.
Dashboard = YES,  IM more of a build my own MFT type bench and know there benches are pretty expensive. However without question the rail hinge they make is the only one on the market worth owning.
BOSH rail system = This is a possibility I know the mafell rails and bosh rails are very similar. However, I am not 100% up on compatibility on the bosh and mafell track saw stuff and not used it.  If the bosh rail can be used with the Mafell rails then this could be a good option. However, I will also say that I have used almost every other 32mm jig and system and the LR32 was by far the best.
Festool RouterAs far as the copy ring issue goes others have confirmed what I thought.  You snap the ring in and hope for the best and when you find a discrepancy in your work you are stuck trying to bend tabs to get it center. Problem is I cant see how that is even remotely a viable option.  One good bump or too much pressure one way or the other and it can be off.  Im sorry but if im paying 2-3 times or more for something this is totally unacceptable to me.  Granted they may have slightly better dust control but it involves using plastic shrouds that get in the way half the time anyways.  The DW621 does a pretty darn good job at dust control, at least as well as can be expected without having extra plastic shrouds in the way. (which are most likely available aftermarket 3rd party) cant say for sure since I never checked. Its a router after all and nothing is going to catch it all. At least routers produce more of shavings than dust and most of it falls to the floor and less airborne dust unless its MDF.  Best thing in that case is a mask either way.   

 

[squall_line]

AFAIK, the copy ring issue only applies to the 1400, not the 1010, as the 1010 uses screws to secure the rings.

Also, if people are worried about the price of the LR32 system, they should check out the price of the Mafell DDF40 drill template some time.  I had someone once try to tell me that the DDF40 and Mafell rail plus extension were a cheaper option than a holey rail, LR32 SYS and a 1010.  I think they may have been including the price of the Domino in that equation, because the math definitely doesn't work out any other way.

 

[afish]

Yea I think its around 300 for the short mafell jig and 433 for the extension.  Its not a cheap option.  The other issue is when you have one tool for multiple processes it can really become a pain to switch between process as you have to re-setup each time.  Only reason I got rid of the LR32 was because of the CNC.  I like Festool but Im not one of these super fan boys that buys everything green but the LR32 was a great system after I figured out how not to need those pesky edge guides each time.  Those things are the only real negative to it.  I will also say that some have complained that the holes can be out of square but thats always been because the panel was a little out of square.  So its very important to make sure the panels are very square before drilling.  Because once you start flip flopping everything around the errors get doubled.  You can assemble a cabinet a little out of square and et away with it and no one is going to notice (most hardware can be adjusted for these minor discrepancies) until you start putting shelves in and they all rock corner to corner a little bit...

 

[Crazyraceguy]

I guess I just depends on what you are doing with the copy ring. In many situations, the fact that it may not be dead-center is not such a big thing. As long as the orientation of the router stays the same, the tiny off-set it may have does also. Even with dovetail jigs, etc. it might be off of perfect center, but it's the same every time.
Now, I did take the time to tune the tabs slightly, so they don't move, and I always put them in the same way. I like the quick change ability though, it is far more handy than the screws of the OF1010, but the precision lies with the more complicated unit.
If you were doing inlays with the removable bushing kit, it might matter, especially on an intricate shape. I would use the OF1010 in that situation. That's why I have multiple routers, choices and preferences. No one router can do it all. In my experience, tools that can do multiple things don't do any of them well.....maybe one, but definitely not all, or the time required to do the swapping around is not worth it. Again why I have so many routers.

Disclaimer for those who don't know, I work in a commercial cabinet shop where speed and efficiency matter and I have a router addiction.

As far as the original topic, yes, the DF500 is a fantastic unit. It can take you a long way, there is a bit of a learning curve to it, especially in the more complicated applications, but I couldn't do without one.
If you haven't forgotten to check the depth of cut and drilled right through the other side of something yet.....you will. It just happens, you get mad at yourself, and move on. If you haven't done it, you are a hero, or haven't used it enough.

 

[mino]

...
BOSH rail system = This is a possibility I know the mafell rails and bosh rails are very similar. However, I am not 100% up on compatibility on the bosh and mafell track saw stuff and not used it.  If the bosh rail can be used with the Mafell rails then this could be a good option. However, I will also say that I have used almost every other 32mm jig and system and the LR32 was by far the best.
...

"The Bosch rail system" is "The Maffel rail system". It is a collaboration of the companies.

It is made by one company in one way and stickers are slapped as needed. Frankly not sure if it is a Maffel design manufactured by Bosch for both or a Bosch design manufactured by Maffel for both. Probably the former, but that is insonsequential.

I preffer to call it "Bosch" as the most accessories as well as the most sales are Bosch but one can call it Maffel and would be as right to do so.

Festool RouterAs far as the copy ring issue goes ...

By accident or intent you are atributing to Festool things which are fundamental to a hadheld router as a tool and have nothing to do with Festool. Not sure the reason, but it is not very helpful for novice users.

There are two ways for installing template guides:

Traditional:
- the template is just screwed to the router base and a mandrel is used to calibrate/center it with the shaft
  advantage: maximum precision as the method is not dependent on the manufacturing precision of the base, can even handle slight bends from accidents etc. etc.
  disadvantage: one has to manually center the template guide

This is used on the OF1010 as it is "the precision tool" in the Festool catalog. This also makes it the ideal "first router" as far as Festool options are concerned.

Pre-centered:
- the base has a physical interface (a cone in case of the Festool routers) which is designed to just seat the template in, no calibration needed
  advantages: a quick install/replace of the template guide which is a godsend in professional use swapping templates and time being money
  disadvatage: the precision is limited in how precise the tool /the specific piece/ was manufactured, if it was not bent-damaged etc., Festool tends to be pretty good at this, but still, one can make the base-body system assembly only so precise

This is used in the OF1400 and OF2200 series as these are the heavy-hitters and are not expected/designed to be used for tasks where 0.001" and better accuracy is needed /EDIT: Needed with a template, are still as precise as the OF1010 otherwise/.

Neither solution is good or bad but each have their own pros and cons and are for a big part mutually exclusive.

Possibly, one can make a router base that will support both the traditional screw-on templates and have a cone-style self-centered template option. But so far I am not aware of anyone producing such ... at least not from the more quality brands. Please advise if you know.

And the question is how much it is really needed. Even with the mandrel centering, installing a template guide on OF1010 is a 1 minute task. How often one does it to justify saving 30 seconds from it get a worse router due to the compromises a dual-setup would require like a way bigger opening in the base etc. ?

 

[afish]

Thats good to know.  I knew they were practically identical but wasnt 100% sure if there was any weirdness when doing such things as joining rails to make one long one or not.  I know either of the saws will work on both but never looked much closer after I saw the mafell left that shadow line.  That would irritate me on white interiors on upper cabinets so I lost all interest in it after that.  Maybe I'm just picky. 

Does the 2200 use the same copy ring design as the 1400? 

 

[Crazyraceguy]

And the question is how much it is really needed. Even with the mandrel centering, installing a template guide on OF1010 is a 1 minute task. How often one does it to justify saving 30 seconds from it get a worse router due to the compromises a dual-setup would require like a way bigger opening in the base etc. ?

You're right, it's not a huge deal, but it does take more than a minute. You have the fiddley flat blade screws to deal with in the first place and you have to take off whatever other plate you had in there before....and those were different screws T15 or 20 I don't remember right off. That's not even accounting for the mounting/unmounting of the cone bit.
It's not the end of the world, but far longer to swap than the OF1400. The OF1400 ring may not be perfectly centered, but it will be the same as last time, which the screw mounting of the OF1010 doesn't do. Just throwing it on there, will be substantially off. Again, trade-offs for what is more important at the time, speed or precision? Both have their place.

 

[batmanimal]

Thats good to know.  I knew they were practically identical but wasnt 100% sure if there was any weirdness when doing such things as joining rails to make one long one or not.  I know either of the saws will work on both but never looked much closer after I saw the mafell left that shadow line.  That would irritate me on white interiors on upper cabinets so I lost all interest in it after that.  Maybe I'm just picky. 

I think the shadow line only occurs if you use the optional scoring setting on the Mafell saw. I say this based on online research and YT demos, not from personal experience, as my batteries are still on a truck somewhere so I have not been able to try this saw.

I have the Mafell long rails and ordered a short Bosch one for cross cuts. When the Bosch comes in, I will see if the connector works between the two different brands. My hunch is that they are identical.

 

[jeh]

Don't waste your money on the LR32. Return the Domino and buy a Mafell DuoDoweler. Does the same stuff as the Domino albeit slightly differently. Results are just as strong. It also has an incredible easy to use template guide for shelf pin hole drilling. It requires absolutely zero thought as to how to orient it. The LR32 is a kluge at best. I owned one and got rid of it as soon as I saw the DuoDoweler. The Domino was sold off shortly after that. The OF1010 is a great router though and for that matter all of their routers are.

 

[afish]

...
BOSH rail system = This is a possibility I know the mafell rails and bosh rails are very similar. However, I am not 100% up on compatibility on the bosh and mafell track saw stuff and not used it.  If the bosh rail can be used with the Mafell rails then this could be a good option. However, I will also say that I have used almost every other 32mm jig and system and the LR32 was by far the best.
...

Festool RouterAs far as the copy ring issue goes ...

By accident or intent you are atributing to Festool things which are fundamental to a hadheld router as a tool and have nothing to do with Festool. Not sure the reason, but it is not very helpful for novice users.

For some reason I didnt see the Festool router part of your post till just now and not sure if we are having some language barrier issues here or your just trying to be snide, since Im not 100% clear what you are trying to say.  I clearly said at the start of the post that I was trying to keep it short but somehow you left that part out of your quote. Either way, not sure how what I said is confusing if you speak English to even a novice.

  Festool RouterAs far as the copy ring issue goes others have confirmed what I thought.  You snap the ring in and hope for the best and when you find a discrepancy in your work you are stuck trying to bend tabs to get it center. Problem is I cant see how that is even remotely a viable option.  One good bump or too much pressure one way or the other and it can be off.  Im sorry but if im paying 2-3 times or more for something this is totally unacceptable to me.  Granted they may have slightly better dust control but it involves using plastic shrouds that get in the way half the time anyways.  The DW621 does a pretty darn good job at dust control, at least as well as can be expected without having extra plastic shrouds in the way. (which are most likely available aftermarket 3rd party) cant say for sure since I never checked. Its a router after all and nothing is going to catch it all. At least routers produce more of shavings than dust and most of it falls to the floor and less airborne dust unless its MDF.  Best thing in that case is a mask either way. 

Yea, I missed the space bar but its still pretty clear.  The copy ring in the 1400 is NOT easily nor can it be precisely centered other than by shear luck and even then its still prone to some deflection or shifting.  Sure its easy to take on and off but at the cost of what, precision. No thanks. Bottom line "ITS A BAD DESIGN" sure it can be corrected with a secondary/sub base with some oversized holes in it to account for any alignment issues.  Which is a common method for centering rings in other routers.  However those routers typically cost considerably less than a Festool Router. Which was my point.  If I'm paying 2-3 times as much for something it better be worth it. I dont want to have to worry about precisely orienting the router as I work so Im not getting any errors.  Granted this might be a non issue for most or some but if you do a lot of woodworking (which Im assuming you do or plan to do since you are looking at 600 routers) then at some point it will most likely become an issue.  A novice probably wouldn't even know to check first and with the cost of materials these days figuring out there is a problem after can be a very costly mistake, possibly more than the router.  Also just so we are clear it looks like to me the the 1010, 1400, and 2200 all use a different style of copy ring.  So Festool routers keep getting better and better.  So instead of making them universal I need to buy different types for each router??? Awesome!   

 

[afish]

Don't waste your money on the LR32. Return the Domino and buy a Mafell DuoDoweler. Does the same stuff as the Domino albeit slightly differently. Results are just as strong. It also has an incredible easy to use template guide for shelf pin hole drilling. It requires absolutely zero thought as to how to orient it. The LR32 is a kluge at best. I owned one and got rid of it as soon as I saw the DuoDoweler. The Domino was sold off shortly after that. The OF1010 is a great router though and for that matter all of their routers are.

That is pretty bold statement there.  However based on what I found on my DDF40 there could be an issue on how you orient it.  If I put a straight edge from the sole or base of the DDF40 up to the fence on the left side they are perfectly flush.  If I do the same on the right side I have about .008 (possibly more as I didnt test with feeler gauges) of a gap between the fence and the straight edge.  I found this as I was getting some small misalignment issues and it took a bit to find it but its there.  Having said that I do agree the DDF40 is more useful building cabinets plus dowels are a whole lot cheaper than dominos.  There's a place for both at my shop. IF and thats a big IF I had to choose just one I would pick the DDF40 but I would miss the Domino. As stated the worst part about the LR32 is those edge guides but I had a way to eliminate them for the most part.  If I still had it I would be interested in race but I honestly dont see how anyone could have done it faster with the Mafell.  The way I used the LR32 I didnt even have to clamp the rail or part down and never had any wobbly shelves.  Not saying you will with the DDF40 but based on my recent discovery I could see the possibility.  Im interested to know if you check yours do you have the same error?  Ill look closer again tomorrow but since the fence is flush on the left and slightly short on the right it would seem like its a casting issue not a alignment issue as if the fence was shifted over to the left.   

 

[Svar]

Return the Domino and buy a Mafell DuoDoweler. Does the same stuff as the Domino albeit slightly differently. Results are just as strong.

No. It all depends on what you are making. For most rail and stile items, chairs, picture frames, etc. etc. doweler holes are just too wide apart. You can do one hole at a time, but that's a deal breaker right there. Ability to make wider or custom (overlapping) mortices is also nifty. Each tool excels at certain things, and none is universal.

 

[ChuckM]

+1

What matters often is hardly the tool itself, but the hands in which the tool is held.