Ebay Fraudulent Listing for Festool Accessories

[squall_line]

I pay zero annual fees for my credit card through my local credit union; I actually get an annual credit of 1.5% of my purchases that are paid in full every month.

It has more protection for me than a Debit card, since a debit card is instantly deducted from my bank account and lowers available cash on hand if fraud takes place.

Car rental agencies, hotels, and a number of other institutions in the United States will only accept a debit card if you leave a sizable cash deposit.  Some car rental agencies actually require a co-signer if you want to rent with a debit instead of credit card.

Pass-through fees on credit card transactions were frowned upon if not illegal in many parts of the US until just the last couple of years.  In my most recent travels for work, I finally started to encounter restaurants with a "credit card use fee" that was passed along if not paying with cash in a very heavy tourist area.  Some local joints here in my hometown started to do the same thing but quickly reversed course when their business plummeted.

Bank Direct Transfers in the US don't require any form of authorization through the bank's website to complete individual transactions, though they're usually brokered through a third party that requires confirmation of two small deposits to verify account ownership.

 

[Coen]

Haha, sounds like a needless complicated system on your end. Fits the imperial units though..

 

[Ron B]

What info of yours? Your bank account number? What's that of any use to anyone?

I did one bank transfer once.  Cost me $20.  I do not own a debit card because a credit card offers more protection.  If my card is stolen and I take the steps to report it, my losses are limited to $50 with a credit card, not with a debit.  The amount I would have lost on that European trip would buy every Festool router made, and lots of accessories, so the protection is worth it to me. 

I realize I give you my bank account number when I write an actual paper check.  But I have to physically write that check.  I like that physical barrier.  I just do not like to give electronic access to my accounts.  I was an accountant in a former life, and have seen too many bank mistakes.  Again, I am old fashioned, and I am fine with that.                     

 

[DeformedTree]

Not sure how cash would work online  [unsure]

I like the whole bank transfer setup they have over there, but we don't have that  [sad].  As mentioned, you basically can't exist in the US without a credit card, everything requires one. If you don't have one, you are basically toast, and this is a major issue and big part in the poverty issues in the US.  You need a CC to function, but if you don't qualify for a CC, you can't get one, which then makes you un-qualified. It's a terrible loop.

Far as Cash, use of Cash is on the rise in the US.  While tech companies and others would like to convince people it's going away, and you don't need it, the population disagrees and people are steadily using it more.  Some states have had to step in and make it illegal for places not to accept cash. There were multiple reasons for this (choice, privacy, etc) and one of them was also the above mentioned issue that a lot of people don't have and can't get a Credit Card.

In the end, ebay has always been a sea of fraud.  Once it moved past its roots as a person to person auction site, it was nothing but downhill.

 

[mino]

I think this os partly a "problem" from the US being ahead of the curve on bank-mediated payments.

Over here, there are some things you need a CC, but most (99% ?) of bank-mediated transactions are debit-based not credit-based and most /again, 99% ?/ transactions are online/live.

In that scenario there is precisely zero risk for the bank. So you do not need absolutely anything to get one except to pay the fee foir the card issuance in some cases.

The problem with any bank-mediated transaction stays - a total loss of privacy - so there are a lot of people who avoid it intentionally.

 

[DeformedTree]

Well, that has always been the issue with services like paypal.  It served a function, but now you are signing up for something else. And have to deal with that party.

Now we have companies trying to push Apply Pay and similar, which is multiple levels of issues.  The general reaction to all of this is usage of cash. Companies have shown they can't be trusted with any information. They have shown that anything they say about privacy, not storing data, security, etc is false. So the harder they push, the more people push the other way (cash).

You also now have a generational issue, with people just saying something like "I'll just pay you with Venmo", not understanding it doesn't matter if "everyone I know uses it", the bulk of people don't and will never use it, time to find an ATM or learn how to write a check.

I think there is some movement on moving to (name escapes me).  The thing the EU, AU, etc moved to, to replace checks (I believe the process folks above described but didn't call out by name). I like the idea of those. And I think I have read US banks are offering the service in some form or about to start.

 

[AlexThePalex]

I did one bank transfer once.  Cost me $20.  I do not own a debit card because a credit card offers more protection.  If my card is stolen and I take the steps to report it, my losses are limited to $50 with a credit card, not with a debit.  The amount I would have lost on that European trip would buy every Festool router made, and lots of accessories, so the protection is worth it to me. 

Protection after the fact. You already paid your money and have to put in a lot of effort to -hopefully- get it back. Sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't, with things like these.

With our online bank transfer system, the bank checks out a company when they apply to become part of the system. At forehand. If there's any suspicion, you're not even allowed on the system and no one can ever pay you in the first place.

Bank transfers here don't cost money, except for the base rate you pay every month to have an account. That's just a handful of euros.

Odd how you talk about fraud with bank transfers, while the whole system of credit cards leaves a staggering amount of opportunities for fraud in comparison.

But I am pretty sure the American bank transfer system is no where near as developped as ours over here. Too much money to be made with credit cards by the big players, so no incentive at all to improve.

 

[Ron B]

Alex-I just want to learn from other cultures, I am not lording it over that my side is better than yours.  I have plenty of people on this side of the ocean who disagree with me without making more mad at me on the other side of the ocean.  You are fine with bank drafts, I am not.  As a financial person I was just curious.  By the way, please note that America's monetary system is metric, not imperial.  At least we got it partially correct. 

 

[DeformedTree]

Odd how you talk about fraud with bank transfers, while the whole system of credit cards leaves a staggering amount of opportunities for fraud in comparison.

But I am pretty sure the American bank transfer system is no where near as developped as ours over here. Too much money to be made with credit cards by the big players, so no incentive at all to improve.

Something I can fully agree with you on Alex.  Right now, in the US, scamming and fraud are way too high, and a lot of it is because of various "take money first" methods of payments.  And businesses holding the information.  I would love to just have everything be me having them "give me your account to have money sent to" and then I go do that.

While banks can be bad about stuff, they are vastly less bad than stores/business/people.

And yes, so much of it is about them wanting to make money, or make money off information about you, etc.

Lots of people sign up for dumb things, like having everything billed to their CC, signing up for automatic payments billing to their CC.  You will get places like apartment complexes offering to put your monthly rent on your CC as a re-occuring charger so it's "easy/simpler".  Yeah, have $2000  against my CC every month, and good times when your credit card gets stolen/shut down and now a debt collector comes after you because you didn't pay your rent. Lots of folks are completely un-aware you can have automatic payments that are you sending money to someone via your bank, verses having them charge you/pull from you.  You will get businesses, etc you have regular bills with be confused of why you are asking them for their billing address and the number for my account, they tend not to like the idea of the tables being turned.

 

[AlexThePalex]

Alex-I just want to learn from other cultures, I am not lording it over that my side is better than yours.  I have plenty of people on this side of the ocean who disagree with me without making more mad at me on the other side of the ocean.

Yardbird, nobody's mad here, we're just talking. That's how you learn from eachother, discussing options and opinions, and not by shutting up the moment somebody else disagrees with you.  [smile]

 

[bertv]

Dunno what they call cash then for online, seems a bit tricky indeed, but here in Europe the bank transfer for online transactions is most popular. 

Credit cards and checks are pretty much outdated here, and we prefer not to use services like PayPal that require paying a percentage.

Well, the only time I got stiffed on an online transaction was almost two months ago when I ordered some accessories from Wessel (nozzle and such) and the PayPal module didn’t work and I HAD to use a bank transfer (iDEAL). Payment got thru, but did not resolve in my Wessel-account ("pending") – so there was some nefarious interference, I think.

I used Wessels online response form to inform them about what happened, but never got a response, even after a second attempt.
So here we are: no products and the money is gone (banks have only a short window for reclamations). Money that I could have got back if I had used PayPal or my Visa.

IMO The best payment system is PayPal. Sure, the seller has to pay a fee, but that’s the cost of doing business.

 

[Ron B]

Yardbird, nobody's mad here, we're just talking. That's how you learn from each other, discussing options and opinions, and not by shutting up the moment somebody else disagrees with you.  [smile]

Good-it seems in this crazy world we can no longer have discussions. I have learned that the hard way.  Sorry I shut off but have been down too many rabbit holes and pretty much give up having logical discussions with other people.  Sometimes I would rather talk to my dog than people, and I do not even have a dog.

I hope you do have a better banking system than ours.  I would have trouble defending Goldman Sachs or Wells Fargo or a number of the other larger banks.  I realize that the Dutch West Indies opened up parts of the world to trading and set Amsterdam up as the banking capital of the world in that time period. So I realize you have a history of a good banking system. 

Have a good day Alex.  I always enjoy your house remodeling pictures. 

 

[mino]

Good-it seems in this crazy world we can no longer have discussions. I have learned that the hard way. ...

In non-UK Europe the snowflake culture is present but way, way less accepted. In the "uncivilized ROW", as some Americans use to say, such culture is almost non-existent.

Over here in CZ, one is seen as immature and/or incompetent if one cannot take an argument or a critic. However harsh it is. The more one can handle a critic - especially the valid one which hurts the most - the more one is taken seriously. For critic is the pasture of improvement.

When dealing with UK colleagues, I use a simple rule: If people seem offended, I do back down and try to rephrase/clarify.

But I will not avoid a critic or an argument when situation asks for one. "Rose-covering" crap is something I would see as truly insulting to the other party. But maybe we are the weird ones over here.
8)

 

[Coen]

I just do not like to give electronic access to my accounts.                 

I don't. The shop I buy from gives it's info to my bank. I merely log in to my account and confirm. At no point does any 3rd party gain any access to your bank account.

That is the lazy form of bank transfer. If you want to manually put in amount, invoice number and accountnumber of the shop, that is possible too.

 

[mino]

I just do not like to give electronic access to my accounts.                 

I don't. The shop I buy from gives it's info to my bank. I merely log in to my account and confirm. At no point does any 3rd party gain any access to your bank account.

That is the lazy form of bank transfer. If you want to manually put in amount, invoice number and accountnumber of the shop, that is possible too.

Probably what it important to mention here:

In the Euro area here is this thing called the "SEPA clearing system". And that system is pretty new - about 10 years - so it was built with modern technology assumptions. Part of that system is that:
1) EVERY bank in Euro countries is legally mandated to support/participate in it
2) there is a limit on a total transaction time to take no-more-than 1 business day to process and all banks have to have their systems aligned to support that
3) receiving bank cannot charge for the transfer /all charges are with sender formally and the costs to banks are in the $0.0001/transfer territory/ so in practice most bank accounts do not charge for these transfers /unlike CCs which take 1-2% for the service in addition to the interest/

Especially the points #2 and #3 is what makes the bank transfer a practical tool for general public use even for $1 range payments.
Some banks so provide for "online/immediate" payments but important is the worst case where whichever the bank of client or seller, the transfer will not take more than one day.

I do not believe US has any such universally-supported solution hence the CCs are the "most reliable" approach in the absence of any other semi-universal system. Not to mention a system like SEPA where the transactions costs are unbeatable.

For clarity, SEPA is run by the central banks on a cost basis. It is essentially a "non-profit" arrangement meant to facilitate trade. Similar like if FED setup some system and then mandated it - which I am not sure would be even legally possible in the US ref the mandating part without some special laws.

ADD:
Nothing like SEPA would have probably happened had there not been a desire to provide some "standard" system that can replace all the country-specific standards historically in place in the Euro countries which were a total PITA to work with in the daily business. And even then it took about 10+ years since the Euro was established until the SEPA parameters were agreed between the participating countries ...

 

[Ron B]

In the Euro area here is this thing called the "SEPA clearing system".
Thanks for that explanation, Mino. I can understand that the SEPA system was probably created when the Euro came into existence, and it sounds like your banks have an efficient streamline system rather than the roadblock system for occasional bank drafts in the US.  Reoccurring bills like utilities paid by bank draft are not a problem, but one time purchases with bank drafts are a expensive option problem in the US.

On certain purchases we have the choice of paying by check, bank draft, or paying a sur-charge and paying by credit card.  Not many do this, but some truck road stop gas stations have a cash discount and most precious metal sellers will give discount for check over the credit card but then you give them time for check to clear. 

Another factor is bank account charges.  Here I keep a certain balance in or have my employment checks directly deposited, and my banking charges and checks are free.  In return they pay me no  interest on checking and savings  (well-maybe .00001%)

Anyway, welcome to the first day of summer (or I guess winter in the Southern hemisphere)

 

[DeformedTree]

In the Euro area here is this thing called the "SEPA clearing system". And that system is pretty new - about 10 years - so it was built with modern technology assumptions. Part of that system is that:
1) EVERY bank in Euro countries is legally mandated to support/participate in it
2) there is a limit on a total transaction time to take no-more-than 1 business day to process and all banks have to have their systems aligned to support that
3) receiving bank cannot charge for the transfer /all charges are with sender formally and the costs to banks are in the $0.0001/transfer territory/ so in practice most bank accounts do not charge for these transfers /unlike CCs which take 1-2% for the service in addition to the interest/

Especially the points #2 and #3 is what makes the bank transfer a practical tool for general public use even for $1 range payments.
Some banks so provide for "online/immediate" payments but important is the worst case where whichever the bank of client or seller, the transfer will not take more than one day.

I do not believe US has any such universally-supported solution hence the CCs are the "most reliable" approach in the absence of any other semi-universal system. Not to mention a system like SEPA where the transactions costs are unbeatable.

For clarity, SEPA is run by the central banks on a cost basis. It is essentially a "non-profit" arrangement meant to facilitate trade. Similar like if FED setup some system and then mandated it - which I am not sure would be even legally possible in the US ref the mandating part without some special laws.

ADD:
Nothing like SEPA would have probably happened had there not been a desire to provide some "standard" system that can replace all the country-specific standards historically in place in the Euro countries which were a total PITA to work with in the daily business. And even then it took about 10+ years since the Euro was established until the SEPA parameters were agreed between the participating countries ...

Thanks for that. I do wonder what all differences might exist over there verses the US on banks/CC.  On the CC fees, they for the most part are not thought about here and I wonder if there are differences.  The buyer/user of CC does not see any fees. Those are only seen by the business. So no one using a CC ever thinks about any fees for using it.  You will see some businesses, having little signs like "min $10 for CC" and such, since if someone comes in and buys something that cost a dollar, their fees may put them in the hole. My understanding is the CC companies do not allow them to do this, but it is what it is.  But as mentioned, this gets into places like gas stations offering discounts on gas if you pay in Cash instead of CC. Since gas is basically a zero profit margin product, it makes some sense. The flip side is not a lot of people want to carry that much cash on them all the time for fuel ups, so it tends to be a subset of folks who do it all the time and go specifically to those chains, the rest don't care. In Europe are the CC fees something add on above the listed price? Be interesting if you guys show prices with tax built in (unlike the US), but show CC fees on top of the price.

I assume you have minimum balance fees in your banks. That really hurts a lot of folks in this country. They don't have the $1-2k to be able to open a bank account, so they don't have a bank. Without a bank, you have no checks, you have no CC.

 

[Coen]

You will see some businesses, having little signs like "min $10 for CC"

We used to have the same for paying by debit card as opposed to cash, the Germans still have these signs. Go to a German gas station, empty their shelf of €50 Amazon gift card (all six of them, lol), pay cash. They won't look surprised at all.

Be interesting if you guys show prices with tax built in (unlike the US), but show CC fees on top of the price.

Shops geared to towards private citizens (as opposed to business to business) have all prices listed including VAT.

Charging extra for CC payment was banned two years ago by some stupid EU rule. (PSD2)
However.... you can still opt to not accept CC payments at all  [big grin]
Offline it's like

 

[DeformedTree]

I assume you have minimum balance fees in your banks.

Huh, what? No.

That really hurts a lot of folks in this country. They don't have the $1-2k to be able to open a bank account, so they don't have a bank. Without a bank, you have no checks, you have no CC.

Banks offer free accounts with debit card to minors. Students are offered free accounts as long as they let their student loans be deposited on said account. Then when you finally arrive at the age of 20+ where you finished school and have to start paying for your bank account... you really can't do without anymore and you end up paying like €2 per month for a basic account. Shared account including 2nd debit card... makes it like €3.10 per month.

For CC... you do need like €650 per month income and your credit registry is checked. Yes, all loans and credits are registered (except student loans..............) so you can't keep stacking credit. Now, when people buy a house, they officially have to state how much they owe in student loans, but the general practice is that people keep silent or are even advised to pay back their student loans two months in advance so they can skip two payments and show two months worth of "clean" bank statements to qualify for a bigger mortgage...

The big stink now is that they want to register the student loans as well, but like half the political parties are opposed. While there is only really one reason to not register them; to be able to inflate the housing prices some more...

If you let everyone get a bank account for free or basically free with no min balance, how do you find ways to keep poor folks poor? if they have a bank account suddenly they can have savings, CCs, ability to have their pay direct deposited.  This would eliminate the need for check cashing businesses and pay day loan outfits. How would the owners of such places get rich? Poor/Low Income people might be able to improve their lives? This sounds crazy.

I think my bank charges me 20 bucks a month just for existing, and I have plenty of balance with them. I think I've had a bank that would charge me around 35 bucks a month if I dropped the balance below $1000. All banks far as I know are similar.

What's next over there, a healthcare system that isn't the biggest cause of personal bankruptcy? 

 

[jeh]

I pay zero annual fees for my credit card through my local credit union; I actually get an annual credit of 1.5% of my purchases that are paid in full every month.

It has more protection for me than a Debit card, since a debit card is instantly deducted from my bank account and lowers available cash on hand if fraud takes place.

Car rental agencies, hotels, and a number of other institutions in the United States will only accept a debit card if you leave a sizable cash deposit.  Some car rental agencies actually require a co-signer if you want to rent with a debit instead of credit card.

Pass-through fees on credit card transactions were frowned upon if not illegal in many parts of the US until just the last couple of years.  In my most recent travels for work, I finally started to encounter restaurants with a "credit card use fee" that was passed along if not paying with cash in a very heavy tourist area.  Some local joints here in my hometown started to do the same thing but quickly reversed course when their business plummeted.

Bank Direct Transfers in the US don't require any form of authorization through the bank's website to complete individual transactions, though they're usually brokered through a third party that requires confirmation of two small deposits to verify account ownership.

If you want to get technical or 1.5% you are not really getting anything. The merchant just adds it right into the pricing that everyone pays. So those paying cash get hit with that extra 1.5% even though they get no benefit. At the end of each month I look at the number of charges made as a percentage of revenue and the various charges for the right to accept cards. The "cost" of accepting cards is factored right back into every price increase.

My wife's business, which has monthly tuition payments, received enough requests to add online payments that she did. When she did she increased tuition by 3% to cover all possibilities and no one complained.