Feds tackle tablesaw safety - Higher prices are on the way?

[GPowers]

Today the table saw, tomorrow the band saw and hand held saws [sad]

http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/manufacturing/2011-02-02-saws02_ST_N.htm?loc=interstitialskip

 

[Wim]

Why not place a label near the saw blade and a yellow line around the blade like the industry does with other products.
The label could read: Saw blade only intended for wood (natural or man made). No body parts allowed inside the yellow line. No children allowed within 4 feet of the blade.
That will cover everything.

Will this go the same path as the cat in the microwave?

 

[AdamM]

I'm certainly no expert on the topic, but I seem to recall reading once that "flesh detection technology" only adds a couple hundred dollars to the cost of the table saw.  That seems like a lot if you're comparing to a cheap $100 table saw from Home Depot, but not a big deal when added to a $3000 Powermatic.

I think SawStop gives an unfair perception of the Flesh Detection Technology cost...they also happen to be VERY good table saws, which are expensive in general.

 

[Tim Morris]

It won't be long now and we won't have to think for ourselves or even have any common sense as the government will have everything covered for us. [unsure]

 

[GPowers]

It won't be long now and we won't have to think for ourselves or even have any common sense as the government will have everything covered for us. [unsure]

We will all be cutting wood like the guys at the big box stores, where the blade is covered by a huge box.

 

[fdengel]

I have a mixed opinion here.

Personally, I think the SawStop tech is a good thing, and I can't imagine that I would ever want to use a table saw without it considering the [lack-of-]safety records they have built up and how well that technology obviously works (note that I've never used *any* table saw and don't see the need for one at all, but what research I've done on the technology tells me that if I ever did have reason to consider the purchase of a table saw, I'd only buy one of these).

On the other hand, I think the government needs to butt out and stop spending our money to protect us from things we have no interest in anyway.

How many tax dollars spent on "protecting" us from woodworking tools come from non-woodworkers, how many tax dollars spent on "protecting" us from spoiled milk come from people who can't consume dairy products...

This is not the government's job; never should have been, still shouldn't be.

 

[Aegwyn11]

Hmm this is a tough one. I think the most important this is covered by his Normness every single time: "Now lets take a minute to talk about shop safety". How many people around the world use their tools without this thought?

If you put sawstop technology on every power tool, you'll end up with people figuring out new ways to hurt themselves. As an example, how does this technology help with routers and/or shapers? In my mind, a router or shaper is a far scarier tool than a saw....at least with a saw you have a shot to reattach the amputated piece. With a router you'd be left mopping up the leftovers.

Obviously, they should strive to make tools safer to use, but they have to keep cost and complexity in check. An example of a good change was moving from splitters to riving knives. Another would be moving from the old widowmaker shaper cutters with no depth stops to the modern style shaper cutters. But I'm not sure that I agree with mandating a change like requiring sawstop technology in all table saws moving forward. Especially when the sawstop technology is tied up with patents galore...all the manufacturers would be required to either buy or license the technology from Sawstop, making the owner of Sawstop a lot of money. No wonder he's pushing for this.

 

[Jesse Cloud]

Regardless of whether you would like an activist government or a laissez-faire government, the current situation is clearly screwing the public.  The OP's linked article states that 10 accidents a day happen, amounting to about $2 billion in costs. The article states that the industry contests the $2B number, but whatever it is, you and I are paying higher insurance rates and higher taxes for emergency room subsidies, disability benefits, etc.  because of this.

In the 90's the industry was saying they would all go broke if they had to put riving knives in saws, but gee somehow they managed to do it and prices didn't go through the roof...  Sometimes the only way to get these guys to do the right thing is to regulate it, sorry to say.

 

[JimRay]

As I recall, some of the manufacturer's initial objections to the technology revolved around the liability that they would incur if and when the technology failed to protect someone that had relied upon it rather than using safe practices. The idea being that installation of the technology was a de-facto admission that the saws were patently unsafe, much like putting up a sign that says "beware of dog". Seems to me that car manufacturers had the same concern about seat belts (and airbags) a few years back. Sad to say that companies don't do the right thing when given the opportunity because they fear the ramifications of our litigious society (and ridiculous jury settlements.)

Jim Ray

 

[WarnerConstCo.]

You play with a saw every day, you are bound to get bit.

Don't forget the cost involved for the new brake and blade each time too.

I think it would lower someone's WC but, not sure how much since there are a ton of other things with spinning blades that are willing and able to gnaw off a finger or two.

Seems impossible to regulate.

 

[DavidCBaker]

I like the extra safety feature of my SawStop, but primarily I just like the saw. It's engineered and built extremely well. The safety feature is just a bonus.

 

[otis04]

Another example of a government that has run amok.  There are precious few places left in our lives where the long arm of the government hasn't impacted how we live our lives.  Toilets, light bulbs, cars, etc, etc,

The shared cost of insurance is always an interesting argument, however, insurance is designed to be shared risk.  Some people are smart, some dumb, some naturally healthy, and some genetically predisposed to illness.  If we take the argument of increased insurance cost as a reason to regulate additional areas of our lives then we will have to give up red meat, motorcycles, any device that makes dust, etc.

The problem with government is that many children are raised in suburban neighborhoods where they do nothing but extracurricular activities at school and never so much as mow the lawn.  Once through high school, they attend a nice little college and then off to government to make laws.  The problem is that most of them cant' find their butt with both hands or pour urine out of a boot because they have never done any physical work.

All that said, if the SawStop was available when I purchased my saw, I would have purchased one.  When mine is replaced, it will have the SawStop technology.  I would like it to be my choice as a consumer (since the market will respond to my purchasing decision) and not a mandate by somebody that couldn't find the switch or use a measuring tape.

 

[James Metcalf]

  If it is not broke, the goverment will fix it till it is.

 

[fritter63]

Eh, time for Festool to step up their marketing!

Tablesaw? Wir don' t-Notwendigkeit kein stinkin' tablesaw!

 

[GhostFist]

As a person who is already missing a finger due to a workplace accident, and who has used a wide variety of table saws including the saw stop. I don't see a reason for this to be mandatory on all saws. Saw stop table saws are really well built, and the feature is nice to have, but the mentality should remain, "keep your fingers away from the blade at all times", "think about the safest way to perform every cut before you rush into cutting it", "keep your tool in good condition and routinely check that it is functioning properly and is tuned properly". If i was in the market for a cabinet saw I'd give the Sawstop serious consideration as it really is a well built machine, and the Saw stop feature is a nice ADDED EXTRA but i don't feel that it will stop all serious accidents on a table saw. I've seen people cut some pretty stupid crosscuts on a standard cabinet saw and have watched large pieces kick back into people before I was able to intervene. I've witnessed some dude pulling a 4x8 sheet through the saw, and I've routinely been "that guy" who steps in and asks why someone continually removes the riving knife and guards on the machine, BTW there is an override  switch for the Saw Stop function as the sensors prevent it from cutting certain materials and the feature must be killed in order to do it. Saw Stop wont stop stupid (say that three times fast).
How many car accidents are there a day? All cars aren't made out of Nerf because of it. The Government is considering enforcing this because it's a way for them to avoid responsibility.

BTW I lost my finger and use of another, while unloading some cabinetry from a truck, no power tools were involved at all. I'f i happen to be using a table saw with this feature I'll gladly use it but i don't see the necessity for this particular feature to be enforced by law.

 

[John Stevens]

  [snip]  The article states that the industry contests the $2B number, but whatever it is, you and I are paying higher insurance rates and higher taxes for emergency room subsidies, disability benefits, etc.  because of this.
[snip]
Sometimes the only way to get these guys to do the right thing is to regulate it, sorry to say.

I have mixed feelings about this.  You may find it worth your while to print and read this, about 36 pages:

http://bastiat.org/en/the_law.html

Written by a French legislator around 1850 but still fresh today, for better or worse.

Regards,

John

 

[Ken Nagrod]

You play with a saw every day, you are bound to get bit.

Don't forget the cost involved for the new brake and blade each time too.

I think it would lower someone's WC but, not sure how much since there are a ton of other things with spinning blades that are willing and able to gnaw off a finger or two.

Seems impossible to regulate.

Darcy,

When I was at the Woodcraft Sawstop demo I asked the manager that did the hotdog demo how much it cost to replace the blade brake mechanism and he said it cost them $69 which seems extremely reasonable + the cost of your blade which is probably more.

 

[nickao]

I just hate this thread. The idea that a saw stop mechanism being bad or adding cost is just insane to me. Antilock brakes had the same things said about that technology. Now every car has them and many models are the same cost or even less with them.

Do you really think if this went on millions of saws that the cost would not come down. The Saw Stop type device will be a commodity soon and more companies will jump in and make their own versions as soon as they are able. People say it is expensive to replace, that's funny, a new nice blade is 125.00 and I have had to replace a few where workers destroyed them with nails in the wood. One way or another replacing blades is going to happen and the device itself is rapidly dropping in cost already. Plus, an ER visit is 800.00 to 2500.00.

This technology is a good thing and would have saved me 1500.00 at least once in  the last ten years for my own stupidity. It also would have saved 3 workers comp claims from the boys at work cutting themselves up. Once you tell the insurance company saws are on the site, bam your premiums are higher. Possibly this technology will help keep those premiums in check.

Some make it seem this is a big brother type scenario, I think  it is common sense. Make the saws as safe as possible and make it a law too. If you don't want it or are against it there will be saws around for the next 25 years that will not have it, just get one of those used or old models or keep the saw you have.

The money saved at the ER, through insurance claims and workers lost time is justification in itself for me to be a supporter. I lived it and this device would have personally saved me many thousands of dollars and many customer complaints for workers being down over the years.

 

[mouppe]

It seems like I am in a minority from reading the posts in this thread, but I am in favour of mandating the technology on saws.

Just the other day, I was routing with a template using my OF1400, everything was solidly clamped down, I was wearing full protective gear, and was taking really careful cuts. Nonetheless, the router must have tipped slightly, the bit caught on the wood and the whole router flew back towards me, took out half a clamp before bouncing out of my hands and onto the floor. The bit lock was on so it spun for a few seconds on the floor before I turned it off.

The bit was destroyed. The clamp was half mangled. I was lucky. By the way, there seems to be no damage whatsoever to the OF1400. Definitely my scariest workshop experience ever. I turned the power off, put my coat on and went home early for a stiff drink.

Whilst this was a router and the thread is about tablesaws, accidents happen and if the technology is available for a little extra I would want it fitted on my saw.

 

[Sparktrician]

I want to take advantage of every possible safety feature that doesn't impede my progress, and which may aid in creating a safer workplace, I do not want Big Brother looking over my shoulder and saying, "Tsk, tsk, tak!".  I do not want the US to wind up being yet another pathetic nanny state like the UK.  I'm all for users of tools (as well as other devices) accepting personal responsibility for learning how to use these devices responsibly, properly and safely, and then doing so.  I am constantly appalled by the crap that lawyers manage to get away with in the name of "public safety".  While I agree that the SawStop technology is a wonderful solution and that the SawStop products are certainly very well made, I think that it is indefensible for the inventor to lock up the technology and the patents so tightly as to discourage other manufacturers from incorporating the technology into other products as inexpensively as possible, given the potential benefit to the many that use these tools daily.  I would think more highly of the inventor if he took the "pro bono" approach and released the technology into the public domain.  In the Osorio case, I think that the company that set this untrained fellow up for failure should be the one held to account, and not the maker of the Ryobi saw.  In the same vein, the incredibly stupid woman that successfully sued McDonald's for her own blatant stupidity in putting an open cup of hot coffee between her legs while driving, as well as the entire legal team that created this miscarriage of justice, should be tied to the tree and have every square inch of hide flogged off their butts, rinsed with lemon juice, rolled in rock salt, basted with habanero sauce, and placed on a spit over a nice warm bed of coals for eternity.  (Not that anyone would consider me to be opinionated...)

[mad]