Festool Contractors

[Daviddubya]

David,
I don't think it matters if other forums use labeling or not.  We've obviously moved beyond that, and I am asking for other reasonable ideas.  Your proposal to have some kind of blanket disclosure statement might take care of the matter....

At the risk of beating my own dead horse, I DO think it matters that the FOG seems to be the only forum on the Internet that needs some form of "transparency".  Isn't it wonderful that we all get to express our opinions in public, ad nausem?  No, it's not.  OK, we have moved beyond labeling - that's good.  I still don't understand why this forum is so unique that it needs to address this "transparency" issue at all.  However, that horse is now totally dead, so let's move on.

...So, let's move away from the label thing.  Is there a reasonable statement that can be made, and tucked away in the "About Our Members" section that would address this concern?

Matthew

Matthew - I would like to suggest that you come up with a disclaimer, and run it by a few people for comments if you feel that is necessary.  You have the unique perspective of having heard from everyone on this issue.  You have the advantage of having read the public postings as well as the PM's that only you have seen (that apparently carry a lot of weight in this discussion).

 

[d.epstein]

Matt,

Just do it.

What is the problem with a simple disclosure?

Tool  provided by Festool.

ALL manufactures provide  free tools for reviews and feedback.

 

[Daviddubya]

...What is the problem with a simple disclosure?

How about:

Some members of this forum may have received compenstaion from Festool for services rendered.

ALL manufactures provide  free tools for reviews and feedback.

AMEN!!!

 

[Matthew Schenker]

At the risk of beating my own dead horse, I DO think it matters that the FOG seems to be the only forum on the Internet that needs some form of "transparency".  ...  OK, we have moved beyond labeling - that's good.  I still don't understand why this forum is so unique that it needs to address this "transparency" issue at all.  However, that horse is now totally dead, so let's move on.

A legitimate question.  Can you show me another forum tailored towards a particular brand of tools, totally owned and controlled by a private individual, where employees and dealers for the company are still prominent?  I don't think you'll find one.

However, I can show you hundreds (yes, hundreds) of forums where labeling is required.

Isn't it wonderful that we all get to express our opinions in public, ad nausem?  No, it's not.

I agree, and I've learned a lot from this discussion.  This forum has always prided itself on the open nature of our discussions, and I have always felt that it's better to put an idea out there for public debate rather than just doing it quietly without explanation.  In the future, I will have to reconsider this general philosophy.

Matthew - I would like to suggest that you come up with a disclaimer, and run it by a few people for comments if you feel that is necessary.  You have the unique perspective of having heard from everyone on this issue.  You have the advantage of having read the public postings as well as the PM's that only you have seen (that apparently carry a lot of weight in this discussion).

I will do that.

Thanks,
Matthew

 

[Michael Kellough]

Everyone,
We're heading in a better direction here.  Thank you to Peter for putting together a statememt on this.  I agree that members don't need to be spoon-fed every detail and name, so a statement that kind of explains the playing field will probably be good enough (or at least I hope so).

Potential customer for who?

For Festool, for the dealers in this forum.  As I said earlier, even when people don't post, they still buy tools.  We have to consider that when we act here.

Matthew

We do? Not if we're independent of Festool.

If we do, you've got a lot more explaining to do than when Rick is commissioned to write a manual for a new tool.

I've read this statement a few times, and I don't understand your meaning.

Matthew

Well. I'm puzzled by this statement,

"For Festool, for the dealers in this forum.  As I said earlier, even when people don't post, they still buy tools.  We have to consider that when we act here."

What does that mean? We are part of the the Festool sales organization? We can't say anything that might thwart a sale?

The responsibility to "consider that when we act here" is news to me. When did that become part of the FOG mission statement. Where is the mission statement anyway?

 

[Matthew Schenker]

Good Morning,
I've looked again with fresh eyes at this statement:

Potential customer for who?

For Festool, for the dealers in this forum.  As I said earlier, even when people don't post, they still buy tools.  We have to consider that when we act here.

Matthew

We do? Not if we're independent of Festool.

If we do, you've got a lot more explaining to do than when Rick is commissioned to write a manual for a new tool.

OK, I think I understand what Michael is getting at here, and it is an important point that is relevant to this discussion.

Here's what I was getting at.  This forum is independent of Festool, and yet it was formed because I have a strong interest in Festool and always believed that what they produce is unique.  Even though the forum does not benefit directly from sales of tools, it is one of my interests to see that Festool gains new customers.  I'm happy to know that the forum can help with that -- discussions we have here can, and do, lead to sales and new customers for Festool.  Therefore, I see it as one of my responsibilities to make sure we don't do anything that alienates potential customers.  That's why I go out of my way to listen to people, even if they don't post often, or even if they don't post at all.  And that was at the core of the reason I started this discussion.

So, we're independent, but also thematically linked, with the company.  That's also why I often say that this forum is different from other tool forums.

I like Festool and Festool tools, so I don't like it when things happen in the forum that could turn away potential customers.  I'm thinking everyone else here feels the same way!

Thanks,
Matthew

 

[Matthew Schenker]

Well. I'm puzzled by this statement,

"For Festool, for the dealers in this forum.  As I said earlier, even when people don't post, they still buy tools.  We have to consider that when we act here."

What does that mean? We are part of the the Festool sales organization? We can't say anything that might thwart a sale?

The responsibility to "consider that when we act here" is news to me. When did that become part of the FOG mission statement. Where is the mission statement anyway?

I was typing my above response at the same time you were typing your response!  Does my statement above help clarify what I meant?

I have never set up something formally called a "mission statement."  However, I do have sections of the forum where I try to address each of the concerns members would have.  I find that approach better than a single mission statement.  That material is in the Forum Support board and the FOG Rules, Guidelines, and Suggestions board.

Does that help?

Thanks,
Matthew

 

[Frank_M]

Matt,

Here are my thoughts:

If the disclosure is going to be a general statement, it should be presented when new membes are registering and available somewhere that is very easy for people who are already members. 

About FOG's role in helping Festool grow, I don't agree with the approach of avoiding comments that would prevent a sale, which I hope is not your intention either.  If it is only to address concerns of newcomers I am for it.  I am sure you understand very well that for this place to be effective in helping Festool grow it needs to be more inclusive than exclusive.

It is very interesting, even I got a PM from someone saying that he supports my stand on this issue.  I suggested he simply posts in this thread.

If we want this place to be more than a sandbox for about 50-100 people the transparency issue needs to be addressed to the satisfaction of the newcomers in addition to the existing members.

Good Morning,
I've looked again with fresh eyes at this statement:

Potential customer for who?

For Festool, for the dealers in this forum.  As I said earlier, even when people don't post, they still buy tools.  We have to consider that when we act here.

Matthew

We do? Not if we're independent of Festool.

If we do, you've got a lot more explaining to do than when Rick is commissioned to write a manual for a new tool.

OK, I think I understand what Michael is getting at here, and it is an important point that is relevan to this discussion.

Here's what I was getting at.  This forum is independent of Festool, and yet it was formed because I have a strong interest in Festool and always believed that what they produce is unique.  Even though the forum does not benefit directly from sales of tools, it is one of my interests to see that Festool gains new customers.  I'm happy to know that the forum can help with that -- discussions we have here can, and do, lead to sales and new customers for Festool.  Therefore, I see it as one of my responsibilities to make sure we don't do anything that alienates potential customers.  That's why I go out of my way to listen to people, even if they don't post often, or even if they don't post at all.  And that was at the core of the reason I started this discussion.

So, we're independent, but also thematically linked, with the company.  That's also why I often say that this forum is different from other tool forums.

I like Festool and Festool tools, so I don't like it when things happen in the forum that could turn away potential customers.  I'm thinking everyone else here feels the same way!

Thanks,
Matthew

 

[Matthew Schenker]

... About FOG's role in helping Festool grow, I don't agree with the approach of avoiding comments that would prevent a sale, which I hope is not your intention either.  If it is only to address concerns of newcomers I am for it.  I am sure you understand very well that for this place to be effective in helping Festool grow it needs to be more inclusive than exclusive. ...

I appreciate everything you said in your last message.  However, in response to your above statement, I just want to clarify that I did not mean the FOG should help Festool grow.  This forum is independent of the company, and it is not part of Festool's marketing or customer service efforts.

But because of the unique nature of this forum, I feel we do play an interesting role in relation to the company.  Many people come to this forum, and in learning about the tools through our discussions become customers.  Therefore, I don't want to have discussions that alienate people who are new to the forum, and possibly new to Festool, and who may be confused about the whole structure.  Those same new people may also be potential customers.  More directly for us, those new people may become tomorrow's major contributors to the forum.  I see it as all connected.

So, I'm not intentionally trying to contribute to Festool's bottom line.  But I don't want to do anything that makes this forum appear to exclude new members or people who don't post often.  If you look back through my posts in this discussion, you'll see this is the line of thought I have been pursuing all along.

Does that make sense?

Thanks,
Matthew

 

[Michael Kellough]

If we want this place to be more than a sandbox for about 50-100 people the transparency issue needs to be addressed to the satisfaction of the newcomers in addition to the existing members.

Do we have a candidate to marshal the Silent Majority to defeat the Gang of 100? Actually, I think fewer than 80 people have posted more than 100 times.

 

[Matthew Schenker]

Do we have a candidate to marshal the Silent Majority to defeat the Gang of 100?

Again, I'm confused about the nature of your statements.

Actually, I think fewer than 80 people have posted more than 100 times.

I'll offer an arbitrary cutoff: about 200 members have posted at least 50 times.  Of course, no one can really say what the threshold is for what can be considered a high number of posts.

Everyone can judge for him or herself.  To see the frequency of members' postings, click on "Members" in the main menu.  In the next screen, click on "Posts" to sort by number of posts.

Thanks,
Matthew

 

[Per Swenson]

Matthew,

Lets be frank here.

You are a very bright fella.

You managed to take a humble little yahoo msg. board

to what we have here today. All the while teaching  a college writing curriculum

and being a accomplished author in the canine world.

So with that in mind can we dispense with the Faux confusion?

We are not noting in the margins of a student paper here.

Per

 

[Matthew Schenker]

So with that in mind can we dispense with the Faux confusion?

We are not noting in the margins of a student paper here.

Not to be cute, but I am actually confused about what Michael means.  I'm not confused about the idea of a silent minority.  I'm confused how Michael thinks it applies here.
It seems that most of us have come to understand this situation, and we seem to have found a proper resolution.
To me, it doesn't always matter whether it's a minority expressing an opinion.  If the concern is constant, it seems like a good idea to address it.  That's what we did.
Matthew

 

[Per Swenson]

[uote]
I'm not confused about the idea of a silent minority.  I'm confused how Michael thinks it applies here.

Matthew

Then I would like to offer my services as a guest speaker in one of your college courses.

The topic addressed will be titled.

Sarcasm as a Rhetorical Tool in the Post Modern internet tool forum.

Per

 

[Matthew Schenker]

Then I would like to offer my services as a guest speaker in one of your college courses.

The topic addressed will be titled.

Sarcasm as a Rhetorical Tool in the Post Modern internet tool forum.

I'd be happy to have you as a guest speaker in my business communication class.  Or maybe I should just have the semester's project be an analysis of the Festool Owners Group!  We have examples of all kinds of communication here.
Matthew

 

[Daviddubya]

...Can you show me another forum tailored towards a particular brand of tools, totally owned and controlled by a private individual, where employees and dealers for the company are still prominent?  I don't think you'll find one.
...

Of course I can, and I have earlier in this discussion thread.  Maybe the SMC Manufacturer's Forums do not meet all of the criteria above, but they are far more similar to FOG than they are dissimilar.  The FOG is not unique, and Festool's relationship with a number of the members here is not unique.  However, as both of us have said, let's move on.  How is the disclaimer wording coming along?

 

[greg mann]

What has gone unmentioned here (and I am not really sure anything has gone unmentioned :) one of the endearing qualities of this place is its egalitarian nature. Everyone is treated pretty equally even though there are vast differences in what each of us brings to the table. No one has historically given a rip about the circumstances that brought us here in the first place and it often takes a while to find out about the many talents and professions represented. I think it is cool, for example, that it took me a year to find out, almost by accident, that Joe Jensen is a senior executive at Intel. Learning about Michael Kellough's career was pretty neat as well. Point is, I did not need to have a curriculum vitae from these guys, and many others for that matter, to decide whether the information they offered was useful. I like that aspect of the forum and would like it to remain that way.

Matt, feel free to go forward with a general disclaimer. You are a professional writer (whatever that may mean) so it shouldn't be hard to do. You can then direct the PMers to that statement if they feel the need for clarity.

In the interests of full disclosure: I am not a professional or even accomplished woodworker. I just play one on the internet.

 

[Frank Pellow]

What has gone unmentioned here (and I am not really sure anything has gone unmentioned :) one of the endearing qualities of this place is its egalitarian nature. Everyone is treated pretty equally even though there are vast differences in what each of us brings to the table. No one has historically given a rip about the circumstances that brought us here in the first place and it often takes a while to find out about the many talents and professions represented. I think it is cool, for example, that it took me a year to find out, almost by accident, that Joe Jensen is a senior executive at Intel. Learning about Michael Kellough's career was pretty neat as well. Point is, I did not need to have a curriculum vitae from these guys, and many others for that matter, to decide whether the information they offered was useful. I like that aspect of the forum and would like it to remain that way.

Matt, feel free to go forward with a general disclaimer. You are a professional writer (whatever that may mean) so it shouldn't be hard to do. You can then direct the PMers to that statement if they feel the need for clarity.

In the interests of full disclosure: I am not a professional or even accomplished woodworker. I just play one on the internet.

Well put Greg!

In the interest of full disclosure, I have seen some of Greg's woodwork in person and he is an accomplished woodworker (and very accomplished kayak builder).

 

[dirtydeeds]

just being careful here, i dont ACTUALLY care

if people post a dozen times a year or a dozen times a day

i just want them to post openly

i simpy (and intensly) dislike

behind closed doors and old boy networks

and those who believe they have a god given right to govern

by (in this case) pm'ing outside the forum

and then having their views taken as seriously (in fact more seriously) than participating members

for goodness sake cant you guys see the paralell im drawing

this old boy network

this taxation without representation crew

this attempted (behind closed doors) control of this forum

they ABSOLUTLY DEMAND that we take their secret views as being more valid than those we hold in the open

 

[Matthew Schenker]

dirtydeeds,
I see the parallel you are making.

Hey, these things can get messy sometimes, but in the end we figure it out.  The point, for me, is to stay patient along the way and be confident that we actually do have a goal and that we will get there.  It's just reality when we get off on a bad track once in a while.  With such a smart group of people as we have here, if that didn't happen now and then I'd be worried.

And, as Per suggested, I can always use it as material in my business communication class!  Well, actually, Per offered himself as material.  Maybe both.

Thanks,
Matthew