Festool Contractors

[sw1211]

does any amount of paid work for Festool put a small statement in their signature to indicate what they do. i.e I'm am occasionally contracted by Festool to review their tools in exchange for that tool or something to that effect. I feel this should be required by all that fall within this group.

Thanks,
Wayne
[/quote]

and who's going to define "occaisionally?"  Everything doesn't need to be constantly overthought.  Thank you to everyone who provides information.  How you get your tools, who pays for them, who cares.  I'm more ahead after reading reviews/manuals, etc., even if they may be biased, which I don't believe to be the case. 

 

[dirtydeeds]

waynew you take absoluty no interest in this forum whatsoever

38 posts in 18 months, so your profile says

then you come DEMANDING the particpating members give you additional RIGHTS

but REFUSE to give the forum any information at all

it dont work that

 

[dirtydeeds]

waynew (38 posts in 18months)

when you start posting regulary and/or sensibly

ill listen

until then

your views will carry little weight with me

 

[Michael Kellough]

I can't believe this is still going on.

I'm with DD (Tom), and Per, and Bob, and Roger, and Forrest, and Brice, and David, and Poto,  and all the others who actually provide the content we read and discuss here. We say NO to branding, pigeon holing, or labeling of anyone other than those in the full time employ of Festool or those who are actual Independent Sales Agents of Festool products.

Like Tom said, why should anyone care what an undisclosed number of anonymous lurkers think? If they can't trust their own judgement concerning the opinions of other posters they really shouldn't be using power tools or sharp hand tools.

 

[peter halle]

To all of those participants in this discussion:

If I read correctly a previous post from Matthew he indicated that labeling isn't going to happen.  Now the issue at hand is how to address the "transperancy" issue that seems to be around to some degree.  Recent posts seem to be going towards why does he have a say and why are the pming Matthew instead of participating openly.  I think that this is much bigger issue here and I offer the following suggestion for consideration:

Why don't we first determine how big of an issue transperancy is?  How about a poll that could serve as a tool for Matthew to evaluate how big is the issue.

In my opinion. the poll could be useful as a tool if:

The question was:  Do you feel that there is bias given by contributors to this forum when they are rewarded by Festool in some manner for outside work provided to Festool?

YES  NO

Voting results would remain private until the end of the poll.  Members could only vote once.

This would allow the non contributing members a chance to vote in privacy just as the other members.

Matthew could then review the results and that could serve as an aid to addressing this issue or non issue.

I am not a power user of this forum so I don't know if my suggestion is possible, but it could be a step in the right direction.

Respectfully offered,

Peter

 

[jaegerhund]

I don't have much to say here and don't know if I have much of a right (or at least that I'm right in saying it) - but I think most Festoolians are part of smart inquisitive bunch --- a bunch that can figure things out and understand the politics of all of this.  I have understood that this is a site for people who dig Festool products and any final say so or review of a product would be up to me, upon buying and returning if need be ----- in short I don't depend totally on anyone's opinion but my own.

I'm the kind of guy that even the hint of an implied dishonesty or lack of integrity on my part by anyone turns me into somewhat of a festering, raving, SOB -- I don't like it...period.  And if someone tries to pigeon hole or label me, I'm gone .... can't live with those restraints ---- so I understand why some here feel so strongly about this.    But anyway .................

Justin

 

[Michael Kellough]

The question was:  Do you feel that there is bias given by contributors to this forum when they are rewarded by Festool in some manner for outside work provided to Festool?

Anyone who actually uses a Festool immediately develops a positive bias (with very few exceptions). The most glowing reports on these tools are from new owners, not the seasoned reviewers.

 

[dirtydeeds]

a disclosure. to the non active and undisclosed members who think i owe them such a thing

first its none of your business, but i have never been given money or payment in kind by festool

IM EXTREMELY SORRY, FESTOOL UK DID LET ME USE THEIR WATER COOLER ONCE, I HOPE IM NOT TOO BIASED FOR YOU NOW

now ill explain the monetary facts of life

to the "distingished" lurking, silent, members

who demand transparancy

most of active members on the forum are either self employed or hobbiests

we pay VERY large sums of money to festool to buy their tools

in return. festool DO NOT pay our wages

NOR do they fill the odd tank of gas for us

now TELL US, TO OUR FACES, how biased we might be

its dead simple....................  put up    OR  shut up     

stop whinging, winging to teacher

and stop demanding rights you havent earned 

 

[Tom the Remodeler]

Personally, I'm against the idea of the Contractor designation.

I'll come right out and say that Festool has never sent me a tool, other than the ones I've paid for. However, I don't mind knowing that some folks are receiving tools. Festool is not going to send tools to people who are going to fall all over themselves praising the tools, it would be transparent and would hurt Festool's reputation. Rather, it looks like Festool is sending tools to EXPERIENCED users who have good descriptive and communication skills.

I wonder if the "transparency" request has more to do with jealousy? "So-and-so got a Festool for free, why didn't I?". By the way, for the pros doing these reviews, time IS money. The time they spend writing and documenting their reviews is time they could be spending performing their trade, and I think it's the LEAST Festool can do to supply them with a tool to keep. If the reviewer thinks the tool is ho-hum, he'll say so. The reviewer will gain reputability, and, in my opinion, Festool is MORE likely to send them more tools in the future, because they won't be accused of panning for more tools.

Just my thoughts. I don't think it's appropriate to post Contractor status. If we're going to start labeling people like that I'm not sure that I want to be a (albeit VERY minor) part of it.

Hope everybody is having a pleasant week!

 

[Matthew Schenker]

Good Afternoon,
I'm asking everyone again to please try to have a reasonable discussion here:
- Do not insult or dismiss other people's points of view, even if it's totally different from yours
- Do not assume that fewer posts means someone is less valuable (everyone, no matter how many posts, is a potential customer and forum participant)
- For argument's sake, assume everyone is expressing an honest point of view, and take it at face value
- Don't assume this argument should just "go away" because you disagree with it; offer a viable solution instead
- Considering everything I just said, try to think about why the other person might say something different from you
- Considering everything I just said, think of how we can work through this so all sides feel we have improved the forum

We're not going to do anything that one side or the other hates.

Thanks,
Matthew

 

[James Metcalf]

I am also against the idea of Contractor designation. I have read every post in this thread. Just one view, but mine.

 

[vteknical]

- Do not assume that fewer posts means someone is less valuable (everyone, no matter how many posts, is a potential customer and forum participant)

Thanks,
Matthew

Potential customer for who?

 

[danrush]

Matthew,
Back a couple of pages, (post#17, I believe)  I asked how many PM's you have received.  Forgive me if I have missed it, but I haven't seen the answer.  The total number does make a difference.  Just a few, or hundreds.  A couple of guys hacking away at their computers all day does not make a quorum.

I would expect that any club ( and that is all this is, a private club) would have a number of folks joining AND quitting for a vast number of reasons everyday.  If we have 4500 + members, how many have actually quit claiming "transparency" as the reason?  How many "guests" have not become members for the same reason?

We seem to have a number of very prolific and respected members expressing views contrary to the few who endorse "labeling" ( and thanks to those members who post publicly, either way)  Where's the groundswell for "transperancy"?

Dan

 

[Daviddubya]

I feel compelled to say that I completely disagree with the notion expressed by a couple of folks above that this forum is "different" from other forums.  Since nobody can point me to one single example of anywhere on the Internet where "labeling" is required, I will take this opportunity to point you to a whole group of boards where labeling is NOT required.  At Sawmill Creek there is a board group called Manufacturer's Forums.  Within that group of boards there are seven individual boards devoted to conversations about an individual manufacturer's products, Oneida Air Systems, for example.  If someone can explain to me the difference between those forums and the FOG, I'd be happy to listen.

I am still in favor of a disclosure statement at the FOG level, rather than the individual member level.

 

[Matthew Schenker]

David,
I don't think it matters if other forums use labeling or not.  We've obviously moved beyond that, and I am asking for other reasonable ideas.  Your proposal to have some kind of blanket disclosure statement might take care of the matter.

All I'm asking for here is a way to address the concerns of those people who want more clarity, while continuing to have the valuable input we get from long-time members.  This issue will not go away just because a lot of people think it's bunk.  That's never been the way I've solved problems on this forum.

Back a couple of pages, (post#17, I believe)  I asked how many PM's you have received.  Forgive me if I have missed it, but I haven't seen the answer.  The total number does make a difference.  Just a few, or hundreds.  A couple of guys hacking away at their computers all day does not make a quorum.

Over the past three months, I have heard from about 30 members on this issue.  But they do not all say the same thing.  Anyway, I'm not sure the exact number is so crucial.  I see it as a constant percentage of the membership.

I would expect that any club ( and that is all this is, a private club) would have a number of folks joining AND quitting for a vast number of reasons everyday.  If we have 4500 + members, how many have actually quit claiming "transparency" as the reason?  How many "guests" have not become members for the same reason?

On the first part of your question, I can only confirm five people who have quit specifically over this issue.  But the numbers alone don't tell the story, as a couple of these people have made quite a stink about it -- directly and indirectly -- in other forums.  On the second part of your question (about guests) I have no idea.

We seem to have a number of very prolific and respected members expressing views contrary to the few who endorse "labeling" ( and thanks to those members who post publicly, either way)  Where's the groundswell for "transperancy"?

We're moving beyond labeling now, and trying to get to something people can agree on, and which improves the forum.

Potential customer for who?

For Festool, for the dealers in this forum.  As I said earlier, even when people don't post, they still buy tools.  We have to consider that when we act here.

So, let's move away from the label thing.  Is there a reasonable statement that can be made, and tucked away in the "About Our Members" section that would address this concern?

Matthew

 

[Michael Kellough]

Potential customer for who?

For Festool, for the dealers in this forum.  As I said earlier, even when people don't post, they still buy tools.  We have to consider that when we act here.

Matthew

We do? Not if we're independent of Festool.

If we do, you've got a lot more explaining to do than when Rick is commissioned to write a manual for a new tool.

 

[peter halle]

How about this:

This forum was created to enhance the experience of working with Festool products.  It is an independent forum - not officaially sanctioned by the tool manufacturer.  We respect the privacy of our members and recognize and support their enthusiasm for the products that they have purchased and use.  In an effort to provide clarity, some members of this forum may have received compensation in some manner for providing services to Festool but those actions are outside this forum and not within our control.  Their views are presented in their own words and may not respresent the words, thoughts, or intentions of this forum or the manufacturer.

Peter

 

[Brice Burrell]

How about this:

This forum was created to enhance the experience of working with Festool products.  It is an independent forum - not officaially sanctioned by the tool manufacturer.  We respect the privacy of our members and recognize and support their enthusiasm for the products that they have purchased and use.  In an effort to provide clarity, some members of this forum may have received compensation in some manner for providing services to Festool but those actions are outside this forum and not within our control.  Their views are presented in their own words and may not respresent the words, thoughts, or intentions of this forum or the manufacturer.

Peter

This seems to be a good start, it doesn't identify the contractors and it makes things a lot more clear for the new members.

 

[Tom the Remodeler]

How about this:

This forum was created to enhance the experience of working with Festool products.  It is an independent forum - not officaially sanctioned by the tool manufacturer.  We respect the privacy of our members and recognize and support their enthusiasm for the products that they have purchased and use.  In an effort to provide clarity, some members of this forum may have received compensation in some manner for providing services to Festool but those actions are outside this forum and not within our control.  Their views are presented in their own words and may not respresent the words, thoughts, or intentions of this forum or the manufacturer.

Peter

I agree with Brice. This is a great starting point.

 

[Matthew Schenker]

Everyone,
We're heading in a better direction here.  Thank you to Peter for putting together a statememt on this.  I agree that members don't need to be spoon-fed every detail and name, so a statement that kind of explains the playing field will probably be good enough (or at least I hope so).

Potential customer for who?

For Festool, for the dealers in this forum.  As I said earlier, even when people don't post, they still buy tools.  We have to consider that when we act here.

Matthew

We do? Not if we're independent of Festool.

If we do, you've got a lot more explaining to do than when Rick is commissioned to write a manual for a new tool.

I've read this statement a few times, and I don't understand your meaning.

Matthew