Festool quality?

[Stephen B]

[size=13pt]

Interesting read [member=9481]aloysius[/member] . Seems like the ......

I'm not going to contradict your post but I sense that some of what you write might be somewhat off the mark. But by all means keep writing!

[member=23193]PreferrablyWood[/member]  if you were to read through the Thread - 'One for the Aussies' you would see that a significant number of the Australian FOG members have previously shared in and discussed many of the sentiments presented in this Thread by [member=9481]aloysius[/member].

Sure,  it could be argued that some of what we suffer is due to the 'Tyrany of Distance' *  from Germany, but others such as our version of 'Service all Inclusive' and retail price maintenace, let alone FB, reflect what Festool Aust think they can get away with when compared to many of their other markets.

[size=10pt] *https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tyranny_of_Distance

 

[PreferrablyWood]

[size=13pt]

Interesting read [member=9481]aloysius[/member] . Seems like the ......

I'm not going to contradict your post but I sense that some of what you write might be somewhat off the mark. But by all means keep writing!

[member=23193]PreferrablyWood[/member]  if you were to read through the Thread - 'One for the Aussies' you would see that a significant number of the Australian FOG members have previously shared in and discussed many of the sentiments presented in this Thread by [member=9481]aloysius[/member].

Sure,  it could be argued that some of what we suffer is due to the 'Tyrany of Distance' *  from Germany, but others such as our version of 'Service all Inclusive' and retail price maintenace, let alone FB, reflect what Festool Aust think they can get away with when compared to many of their other markets.

[size=10pt] *https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tyranny_of_Distance

Yes I have noticed the tone of dissatisfaction around the service and the way pricing is managed for the australian market, some things in the business model are unfair and that to me does not seem very logical. Satisfied customers = more business after all is said and done.

I've always found many of the threads here and on the photography forums I've frequented to have great contributions from down under that clearly reflect that australians are both talented and bright. Distance gives at new perspective on things and I feel that is an advantage.

 

[charley1968]

[member=60501]JakobProgsch[/member] : Interesting take, Jakob. Stands to reason.

 

[ach_78]

Can't comment on the evolution as I have not been equiped with Festool for long enough.

My observation is that Festool is not overbuild. It is not "american" in terms of philosophy of design. It is not overkill, but aim at "right-build" instead of over-build. That is not a bad thing but can lead to some tools being maybe a little underpowered. Many have complained about the Kapex being clearly under-powered. I can also easily bog down my TS55R when ripping thick hard material (that is even using a panther blade). On the other hand, my Rotex 150 is pretty much unstoppable and I feel I could sit on it without significantly slowing it down.

Another area where you can tell it is designed in a "right-build" philosophy is some material choices. Take the Domino. A high-end american tool would have had a fully machined aluminium billet fence. Probably anodized in red or so, such as a woodpecker tool. The Domino has cast-aluminium fence that is machined only where it matters. It's pretty ugly like that. It works like that. It is good enough like that. But nowhere near overkill nor a machining awesomeness splurge.

I do appreciate though that materials are usually okay where it actually matters. Many small bits are stainless steel. Screws are quality ones. There is no runout where there shouldn't be. Bearings and key technical components seem to be properly choosen.

One grip I have though is the thickness of hard plastic parts, that seem to be consistently on the too thin side of the spectrum.
- Take the Syslite DUO. It takes the whole of 2 seconds to realize the plastic area where the tripod is inserted is going to snap first thing when it gets a chance to. Way too thin. Many will end up taped to their tripod.
- Many CT dust extractors have their top plastic systainer support broken in transit or in use.
- Systainers could be (should be, IMO) a tad thicker, at a marginal cost in terms of weight

Last but not least, plastic shells are good looking and nice to the touch, but NOT hard wearing. Your hand drill is not going to look good for long. They take dings and scratches really easily.

Overall, I would say they are quality machines but could be more polished if they wanted to. They are not ultimate tools. They could definetely be better built, better though out, but at what cost ? They are usually good enough for you to not take the step to go and find an alternative elsewhere. The quality tool market is small anyway and I'm not sure the ultimate tool is out there.

 

[leakyroof]

Can't comment on the evolution as I have not been equiped with Festool for long enough.

My observation is that Festool is not overbuild. It is not "american" in terms of philosophy of design. It is not overkill, but aim at "right-build" instead of over-build. That is not a bad thing but can lead to some tools being maybe a little underpowered. Many have complained about the Kapex being clearly under-powered. I can also easily bog down my TS55R when ripping thick hard material (that is even using a panther blade). On the other hand, my Rotex 150 is pretty much unstoppable and I feel I could sit on it without significantly slowing it down.

Another area where you can tell it is designed in a "right-build" philosophy is some material choices. Take the Domino. A high-end american tool would have had a fully machined aluminium billet fence. Probably anodized in red or so, such as a woodpecker tool. The Domino has cast-aluminium fence that is machined only where it matters. It's pretty ugly like that. It works like that. It is good enough like that. But nowhere near overkill nor a machining awesomeness splurge.

I do appreciate though that materials are usually okay where it actually matters. Many small bits are stainless steel. Screws are quality ones. There is no runout where there shouldn't be. Bearings and key technical components seem to be properly choosen.

One grip I have though is the thickness of hard plastic parts, that seem to be consistently on the too thin side of the spectrum.
- Take the Syslite DUO. It takes the whole of 2 seconds to realize the plastic area where the tripod is inserted is going to snap first thing when it gets a chance to. Way too thin. Many will end up taped to their tripod.-    True, noticed that with my new Duo once I popped it on the tripod. Holding up so far though...

Last but not least, plastic shells are good looking and nice to the touch, but NOT hard wearing. Your hand drill is not going to look good for long. They take dings and scratches really easily.   

  With regards to the outer shells on the drills, I much prefer them to the wild graphics of other tool manufs.  Those ribbons of rubber on Makita, etc, get gummy or fall off over time from my experience.

 

[marky harvey]

I recently bought a Festool cordless drill. I feel that the physical build quality isn't that great. When the battery is installed it can rock from side to side and the gap between the drill body and the battery isn't very even.  My dewalt tools have a much better battery fit.

 

[skids]

I recently bought a Festool cordless drill. I feel that the physical build quality isn't that great. When the battery is installed it can rock from side to side and the gap between the drill body and the battery isn't very even.  My dewalt tools have a much better battery fit.

Which model drill did you recently have? Honestly comparing any Dewalt to Festool drills is laughable I had a Dewalt in my hand the other day and all I kept thinking it how cheap and crappy it felt in my hand.

I get it the Festool drills aren't cheap...But I have a CXS for years now (gateway Drill) and have NOT treated it lightly. I know if I did what I've done to this CXS to a Dewalt it would be all rattles and the battery probably wouldn't fit right or work as well- I know this because I had mass drill prior to Festool. I now have a T 18 to compliment it and I can honestly say the T18 is a force to be reckoned with, what a potent combo. There are zero mass market drills that even come close to the quality of that drill. One serious piece of equipment, which is worth every penny.

You either make the commitment to Centrotec and Festool or you don't. Once you do, you won't look back on that Dewalt fondly.

 

[Stone Message]

This is a "slap the arse and watch the ripples" thread with polarised positions, plenty of opinion and a dash of fact.

One thing a lot of people in Europe are concerned about with Festool kit is its ability to withstand ingestion by large predators. I have heard that a Domino was swallowed by a crocodile in Australia and did not work afterwards. A Great White was found beached in Central America with an 18V Carvex in its gut. That did still work but there was no charger with it so after an hour it was useless.

Damn, I am 5 days late with this !

Peter

 

[charley1968]

Peter,  you have me in stitches..

 

[yetihunter]

I notice people always bring up the systainers being "too thin", in their opinion.
I won't agree nor disagree with that opinion.  I am wondering, though, if they
would be less resilient to damage if they were thicker?

My cantliver toolbox has been stepped on (landed on from jumps, too) a half dozen times since I got it (whenever it came out).  The indivdual components blast off and simply snap back together.  A traditional sheet metal variant would have been bent out of commission.

I've got one broken systainer.  A forklift hit a stack of them while in a shipping box.
One happened to have the three leaf tool insert, and happened to be forced shut with a bit of the leaf jammed inbetween the top and bottom. In that state, the fork cracked a small piece off the back.  Fast forward two months, I was goofing around and opened said damaged sytainer while four loaded systainers were attached to the top.  I lost my grip and the top sheared off at the hinge.

^ All that to kill a systainer. 

Alas, it's not really dead.  I replaced the top.  [big grin]

I have to admit, I've used systainers as step ladders, and they did seem like they were about to break.  I kind of had the Sortimo and Tanos advertising mixed up in my head at the time.

As for the tools.  They keep getting lighter.  The luddites automatically perceive that as bad.  However, power tools, aren't handplanes. 

I do recall either an Amazon review or blog comment complaining about Festool
power tools becoming "more plastic" and specifically addressing the current RO 150.
I didn't have the energy point out that you can clearly see the metal gear housing underneath the plastic overcasing that protects your hand from searing to a nice medium rare cannibal meal. 

 

[Holmz]

This is a "slap the arse and watch the ripples" thread with polarised positions, plenty of opinion and a dash of fact.
..

Best prose today. Brilliant use of the English language.

 

[Naildrivingman]

I think that like many companies which are more or less unknown to the general public, festool will be fine unless they try to grab that apple of popularity.

I think the Pro 5 Ltd was an example. Festool took advance orders and then when it came to fulfilling contracts, they were unable to meet the demand. Of the ones that were delivered to my local distributor (100 were promised, but 10 were delivered), three were returned for service within a few weeks (hours in my case) of use. My sander failed out of the box because of a bearing issue. My assumption is they were unable to meet demand and they did "something" to meet at least part of the pledged quota. That "something" could have been speeding up production, use of different vendors for parts, outsourcing...

IMHO, if Festool doesn't try to generally appeal to the masses, I think they will be just fine. If they want to develop a line of tools that appeal to lower budgets while keeping the original line for those like us who frequent this board; Festool will be just fine.

As to the sentiments of the OPs question, I cannot render an opinion because I've only owned the green and black for about 8 years. In that period of time I can't say that I've experienced quality issues except for the Pro 5 Ltd.

 

[jdw101]

I think Festool's quality is generally pretty good, but some of their obvious outside supplier bits and pieces are not so good.

KAPEX-gate has tarnished the quality image a fair bit, along with CARVEX issues and the TS55REQ recalls.

Festool are certainly premium tools and you pay accordingly, but if you set your expectations too high you're likely to be dissapointed.

Can anyone elaborate on Kapex-Gate?  I currently do not own a Kapex because I already have the large Milwaukee but I have been wanting one after using it in my brothers shop.  I'd hate to get a lemon though and wonder what it's all about.

Thanks

 

[DrD]

There are any number of other tool suppliers which provide equal or better quality and support than Festool, and at way lower prices, whether your color of choice be dark blue, red, light blue, orange, yellow, or gray. 

Much like with Kapex-gate, we recently had a thread wherein it was demonstrated that a key dimensional characteristic - a measure of quality - on the guide rail had changed from what it had been, altering a system-useful norm; data was presented, and Festool has refused to comment, other than - like with Kapex-gate - we'll look into it.  It is as if Festool feels we, their customers, are like unto mushrooms - keep 'em in the dark and feed them dung.

Please note, fellow FOGgers are generally great, offering MUCH useful advice, but try to get a Festool employee to chime in on the forum with anything useful - "fo-get (sic) about it".

 

[peter halle]

I think Festool's quality is generally pretty good, but some of their obvious outside supplier bits and pieces are not so good.

KAPEX-gate has tarnished the quality image a fair bit, along with CARVEX issues and the TS55REQ recalls.

Festool are certainly premium tools and you pay accordingly, but if you set your expectations too high you're likely to be dissapointed.

Can anyone elaborate on Kapex-Gate?  I currently do not own a Kapex because I already have the large Milwaukee but I have been wanting one after using it in my brothers shop.  I'd hate to get a lemon though and wonder what it's all about.

Thanks

When I read the phrase "Kapex-gate" I assume that it is referring to posts here where owners of the Kapex - usually 110 volt models have had motor issues.  Some have had their saws in for repairs on numerous occasions.  Some Kapex users of the same saws have not had issues.  Festool has repaired some under warranty and others have had to pay for theirs (outside of the warranty period.)  Festool's comments and actions to date have been:

1.  A request that if users have an issue with their saws is to send detailed information about their usage,
2.  A statement that they are looking into what might be causing the issues,
3.  A statement that the failure rate of the saws is not that statistically different than other Festool products,
4.  A recommendation that short duration highly repetitive cuts be avoided.

Take that anyway that you wish, I am just trying to unemotionally and non-dramatically answer your question.

Peter - a professional Kapex owner and user since 2010.

 

[jdw101]

I think Festool's quality is generally pretty good, but some of their obvious outside supplier bits and pieces are not so good.

KAPEX-gate has tarnished the quality image a fair bit, along with CARVEX issues and the TS55REQ recalls.

Festool are certainly premium tools and you pay accordingly, but if you set your expectations too high you're likely to be dissapointed.

Can anyone elaborate on Kapex-Gate?  I currently do not own a Kapex because I already have the large Milwaukee but I have been wanting one after using it in my brothers shop.  I'd hate to get a lemon though and wonder what it's all about.

Thanks

When I read the phrase "Kapex-gate" I assume that it is referring to posts here where owners of the Kapex - usually 110 volt models have had motor issues.  Some have had their saws in for repairs on numerous occasions.  Some Kapex users of the same saws have not had issues.  Festool has repaired some under warranty and others have had to pay for theirs (outside of the warranty period.)  Festool's comments and actions to date have been:

1.  A request that if users have an issue with their saws is to send detailed information about their usage,
2.  A statement that they are looking into what might be causing the issues,
3.  A statement that the failure rate of the saws is not statistically different than other Festool products,
4.  A recommendation that short duration highly repetitive cuts be avoided.

Take that anyway that you wish, I am just trying to unemotionally and non-dramatically answer your question.

Peter - a professional Kapex owner and user since 2010.

Thanks for the info.  I had not heard about it but that made me a little worried before a purchase :O

 

[rizzoa13]

Keep in mind they were looking into it a year and a half ago and we've not been able to get any information since.

If the kapex had a more reliable, in my eyes, and more powerful motor I'd be 100% happy with it. The features are what sell the saw but in all honesty if I weren't pulling it out of my trailer and setting it up on a job site I'd never spend the money because it isn't worth it. It's the convenience of the kapex and the ug cart and wings that make it worthwhile.

 

[Stone Message]

Did I read this wrong? I thought that the problem was related to poor power supplies and in particular lower than nominal voltage supply.

Peter

 

[chris s]

I would not say the quality has declined. However it has not kept up with the increases in price.  Which means that I now shop around and to be honest Milwaukee is giving Festool a good run.

i

 

[antss]

Peter - Kapex failures in the UK are certainly due to poor power suplies since you guys have to use transformers to they 110v tools avaialble to you whether on site or in your shop.  In my limited experiece most guys , trying to economize , end up with under rated or poor quality xformers and then run them with smaller then advised extension cords . Further exacerbating the voltage drop. 

In the U.S. , i's a bit more complicated.  We don't use xformers but our powergrid is a hodge podge.  On work sites we see the same voltage drops because there is most often only one supply and it's 50 to 100 feet from the work areas at best.  COntractors or workmen then use extensions to bring power to their area - with cheap and undersized cords.  Causing the same issue seen on UK sites.

All that said - I think most of the U.S. Kapex failures have occured in shops; where the power should be much better.  What frosts guys' backsides is that none of the other big players' saw motors get reported going tits up in such numbers as Kapex.  In either country.    Festool's recommendation that short duration highly repetitive cuts be avoided on a mitersaw is absurd and tantamount to poking a bull. 

I also think that if Festol's enigineers didnt design their motor to account for being used in locations where they be subject to questionable or crappy power supplies , then they failed to do their job.  Do we think Skil designed their worm drive saw's motor with the expectation that it would be used in a shop environmet with clean power with spot on contiuous voltage ? No , that's a jobsite saw and they know what kind of power is going to be seen there.

Doc - never though of myself as mushroom.    [scared]  or am I ripple ?

jdw - google or search here for kapex motor problems and you'll have days of reading material.