Festool quality?

[holtpreston]

I'm another owner of a burnt up Kapex. Woodcraft is taking care of me and sending it off for repair as well as letting me use their demo Kapex in the mean time. I'm really considering selling it when it gets back.

 

[Tyler Ernsberger]

I'm another owner of a burnt up Kapex. Woodcraft is taking care of me and sending it off for repair as well as letting me use their demo Kapex in the mean time. I'm really considering selling it when it gets back.

I would use it until the warranty is up and sell it.  Or sell it now and re coop as much as cash as possible.  Either way sell it!  Festool is not doing or saying anything to reassure it current customers or future customers for the kapex. 

 

[Cheese]

All of these recent Kapex updates are sadly just more fuel for this tragic, many years long, Kapex inferno.  [dead horse] [dead horse]

Time was, when individual Kapex owners would grudgingly post their mitre saw issues on the FOG, but they did so with the intent of making others aware of the problems along with hoping that their newly offered awareness may prompt Festool Corporate into investigating the Kapex issues and ultimately fix the problems. That was the norm then...but still nothing happened.  [mad]

The "nothing happened" part then slowly became like an abscess and gave us the new norm, which is that average Festoolians, that used to encourage engagement with Festool customer service, have become so incensed with Festool's lack of leadership on this Kapex issue, that they are now actively engaging and imploring fellow friends & woodworkers to purchase any competing manufacturer's mitre saw over the Kapex and encouraging friends & woodworkers to sell their Kapex to anyone, before it takes a dump. This is a lock-step change in attitudes and Festool Corporate should seriously reflect on what this attitudinal change means for their future business model. [tongue]

This weekend I made 70-80 "small repetitive cuts" while trimming some Jatoba HVAC vents to fit the existing oak/maple floor openings. Every time I pulled the trigger and heard the Kapex spool up, instead of having thoughts of how enjoyable the Kapex is to use, I kept hoping that the cut wouldn't end in a puff of white smoke.  [scared]

So...over the years, even my attitude has changed because of the Kapex debacle. However, it doesn't have to be like this and Festool could change this attitudinal shift if they decided to put their "big boy pants on" and just do the right thing. A good place to start is by directing Engineering resources to resolve the Kapex motor issues rather than squandering the Engineering resources on designing a new twist-lock connecter for the vacuum hose.  [eek] [eek]

 

[Stone Message]

I do not worry about my 5 year old Kapex, even though I paid the "fixed" price for it then rather than the opportunity for discounts that we have now.

I use it every day, am often in a hurry as I am going from one video prep to another. I admit that it is not hit as hard as a machine in a busy commercial shop but I have seen those and they are no different than mine.

I cannot even guess at the number of Kapex sold over the last 3 years - some dealers might give a hint at their figures, Festool cannot give such commercially sensitive information away but I bet it is in the many tens of thousands of machines. Anyone in that period with a faulty motor can get it fixed - I accept that there will be some anecdotes about either lost emails, lost parcels or unanswered phone calls but the numbers are not enough to dissuade anyone from just evaluating the saw on its merits and making up their own mind.

Those with machines out of the 3 year "all inclusive" period with faults may just be the victims of bad luck. How many are there? Are their numbers so statistically significant?

I know that people with a machine that has failed will feel aggrieved and can justify making a fuss here or elsewhere but we need to make sure that the facts do not get exaggerated or misrepresented by others who have not had the experience themselves.

I would have no hesitation in replacing my current Kapex with a new one if it failed.

Peter

 

[sancho57]

Peter

WORD

 

[Holmz]

...I cannot even guess at the number of Kapex sold over the last 3 years ...

Those with machines out of the 3 year "all inclusive" period with faults may just be the victims of bad luck. How many are there? Are their numbers so statistically significant?

... I know that people with a machine that has failed will feel aggrieved and can justify making a fuss here or elsewhere...

People are well skilled in holding beliefs that are not based upon evidence, but in this case we have some anecdotal evidence that there is a problem.

ˆCorrectˆ...
- We have no statistical basis for the total numbers and the failure numbers.
- Whether the machines are burning up or not, there is now a perception that it is 'a quality issue' that is the cause of these failures...
- Whether or not the failures are statistically significant has also not been presented.

Basically no evidence has been presented that the saws are good and well designed in the motor department. Evidence should be easy to accomplish if the manufacture wanted to do so.
For instance they could provide the statistical '% of failure' over time...

So we have a bunch of users complaining that there is a problem with seeming believable stories of multiple failures.
And we have the manufacture that is not countering these claims in any meaningful way, other than a survey a year ago.

On the surface of it most people assume that where there is smoke there is fire.
And there is also confirmation bias the other way where we want to believe that what we paid for was a wise decision, and defence of the quality of their tools.

I am an evidence and numbers guy, and I have not seen a lot of proof that the saw is good... But like Fox Mulder's office poster, "I want to believe".

 

[antss]

Peter - I know we're on opposites sides of this view, and I can see your side.

You are not as exposed because your saw is 220v and those have very few problems associated with them motor wise. And you really like some of the features.

But if you'll put yourself in my shoes for a second with a 110v saw........

The ones that do have motor problems that get mentioned here and elsewhere.  If they sell tens of thousands of these ( which I doubt, but maybe - 1000 saws X 10 years is possible.  So perhaps as a total #sold).  My point is , I don't think it's as many 110v saws as you think it is.  Making the % of early deaths more significant.

The ones that have a history of crapping out during AND after warranty.

Putting my $1600 or 1200£ at risk for a saw that has KNOWN and REPEATIVE failure that hasn't been addressed is asking more than many people want to gamble or chalk up to "bad luck" as you say.

The very high cost premium for kapex doesn't really warrant the risk for the few features it brings. Coupled with the blade availability in NA and the buy in gets even steeper for something that doesn't have a rock solid quality reputation.  Deserved or not , and Festool has done little or nothing to calm the fears. 

No one questions Porter Cable's 75xx routers for being workhorses and able to last decades in production environments.  Ditto with Makitas mitersaws.  And those examples aren't their company's highest priced tools or even the most expensive in their class - which kapex is.

That's what most here in NA are bitchin about.  Features are nice, but you have to build something that lasts if you want to command high prices.  The number of failures is "statistically significant" when it's my $1600 and year four rolls around.  Most buyers can't or won't choose to afford a roughly $500 capital expenditure EVERY year for the rest of their lives to ensure they have a working and warranted kapex. 

Kinda like Range Rovers : great vehicles until the warranty expires. But if you want something you can DEPEND on long term you buy a LandCruiser.

 

[peter halle]

[member=727]antss[/member] , Just curious - but it does add to the discussion - Do you own one or more Kapex in your successful business or personally?

Peter

 

[antss]

Not anymore , I got rid of it for a variety of reasons.    : 

My pops still has the one I bought him.  At the time, it was the only model that could be placed against a wall.  It gets used about 5 times a year.

I currently use a dewalt, milwaukee, craftsman, and a battery operated makita.

 

[Tyler Ernsberger]

It's sorta hard in my option for Festool to get an accurate failure rate bc people use their saws for different cuts,  professional vs hobby.  In my research the people that have the most issues are trim carpenters that use their saws all day long and making a lot of cuts.  Festools marketing says "Tools for the Toughest Demands".  That should mean that it will hold up to cuts all day long.  Festools silence is doing nothing but hurting them.  Arrogance in my option is the issue. 

 

[Holmz]

It's sorta hard in my option for Festool to get an accurate failure rate bc people use their saws for different cuts...

The rate is #-failed / time. They have the returns - so they would,know the rate.

The mechanism for failure may be related to how they are used, or maybe not... Who knows?
One needs some model of reality, and the science of failures and quality control has been pretty well understood for many decades.

If they wanted to understand it, they certainly could.
If they wanted to advertise what they understand, then they could.

 

[Stone Message]

There is no manufacturer or supplier in the World who would publish failure rates.

We FOGgers might share the odd anecdote about our own mishaps and sometimes share a picture.

Would any professional woodworker publish details of the customers that have not been satisfied, the number of jobs that they have had to return to after completion or the number of jobs that they have started but been sacked from for whatever reason?

Building and maintaining a business is about success not broadcasting failures.

Peter

 

[Svar]

There is no manufacturer or supplier in the World who would publish failure rates.

I think failure rates in automobile industry are easily available.

 

[kevinculle]

I think failure rates in automobile industry are easily available.

Failure rates analogous to the Kapex issue are not easily available, what is available are the JD Powers et al quality surveys which assess customer satisfaction/dissatisfaction with the features and build quality of vehicle models.

 

[Stone Message]

There is no manufacturer or supplier in the World who would publish failure rates.

I think failure rates in automobile industry are easily available.

Some may be but again the manufacturers will not be the ones spreading the news.

I discovered my X3 had to go in for a recall which BMW did not tell me about and it was not publicised in any way. It was for re-welding the Iso-Loc fixing points for child seats. We have 6 grandsons and for me this was a big deal. BMW referred to it as something like a "cosmetic" or "comfort" adjustment.

Has there been any manufacturer of woodworking kit that has published failure rates for any of their gear? .... Silence !

Peter

 

[Robert Hewetson]

So, going back to the original question...I think Festool tool quality is outstanding overall.  If there is another manufacturer providing a similar range of tools of an even higher quality level I would certainly be interested to have a look!  On FOG there are often references to Mafell as being greatly superior, but I must say - as Mafell KS300 owner myself and also owning a rather big stack of Festool systainers at the same time... - I don't see a really obvious difference in pure "quality" there either.  For me, Festool means high quality, well engineered tools - just as you would expect ze Germans to deliver.

 

[HarveyWildes]

I think there are several kinds of quality.  What this thread seems to be about is reliability, which is one kind of quality.  While the jury is still out on this one pending more data, for my part I have purchased ten Festool tools, none more than two years old, and have sent two of them in for repair.  Festool repair has been very quick to repair them, so downtime (yet another measure of quality) has been minimal, and at virtually no cost.  However, as the three year warrantee periods expire, future repairs will become more expensive.

It seems to me that where Festool excels is at yet another measure of quality - fitness for use.  The integrated design for dust collection and design for use at customer sites with minimal impact on the site and relatively easy transportability are all characteristics of this measure of quality.  So far I'm not impressed with Festool reliability, since both my Milwaukee and DeWalt tools have been much more reliable over a much longer period.  However, the quality of the design for dust control is useful enough to me that I will continue to buy/use Festool - as long as the cost of reliability does not become too burdensome.

As a counter example to my overall happiness with Festool fitness for use, I will shortly be posting my C18 for sale in the classifieds because (1) it broke under moderate use and has had to be repaired, (2) it is not integrated into the Festool dust collection system, which is the primary fitness of use category for me, and (3) while it is well designed for fitness of use for drilling, that aspect of fitness of use does not outweigh the potential for reliability issues in the long run, at least for me.  Add to that the lack of a Festool solution for 1/4" ball detent bits.  I can do what I need to do perfectly well with my Milwaukee and DeWalt drills, at the same dust levels, without having to buy new bits.  However, by offering it in the classifieds at some future date, I'm assuming that others of you out there will disagree with my calculations, and think that the quality of design offsets the potential unreliability, whatever you think that might be.

 

[Holmz]

There is no manufacturer or supplier in the World who "would" publish failure rates.
...

Maybe none that have, but some could.
If the rate was zero it seems pretty noteworthy.
One can market this in a number of ways. (For instance the Volvo still crash, and have fatalities, but their marketing leaves an impression)

Secrecy and silence is not aiding in calming conspiracy theorists.

 

[kevinculle]

Imagine Festool proceeded to publish Kapex failure rate data in as detailed a format as possible and the failure rate was quite low (

 

[Tyler Ernsberger]

I think Festool needs to come out with a new saw.  A improved version of the Kapex.  Stop wasting time on the new "improved" hose ends.  The Kapex now has a tarnished name.  In my option they can't fix it at this point.  How long will the silence go on for?