I have $600 and want to get into making cabinets, bookshelves and desks. I will be working with mostly furniture grade plywood and I need a saw..... I have been looking at the Festool TS 55 as well as a Rigid R4512 TS from Home Depot. The R4512 is $529 and the TS55 is around that same price, so I am debating on which to get. Which would you get if you could only get one? If you have both of these saws, which do you find yourself using more? or which could you do without if you had to get rid of one? Thanks.
Festool TS55 or Table saw? which one
- Thread starter PapaPont
- Start date
If you primarily will be working with sheet goods you'd be hard pressed to find anything better than the TS55 IMHO. You'd need a panel saw to compete. If you get one of the vacuums as well you will have a great setup! Later you can add the parallel guides to make cutting several parts to the same size easy.
hi there., [welcome] to the fog.
i have both a table saw with a small sliding table and a ts 55. i use both. table saw for solid wood etc and the ts55 for the sheet goods. i removed the outrigger part of the sliding table as i dont use it anymore and am thinking of thaking off the right hand side extension as it is only taking up room. i only use it for ripping as the chop saw does the crosscutting
ts 55 all the way for sheet goods. you wont look back unless you get a altindorf or a beam saw.
build your self a good cutting table and get the long rail and you wont regret it.
i have both a table saw with a small sliding table and a ts 55. i use both. table saw for solid wood etc and the ts55 for the sheet goods. i removed the outrigger part of the sliding table as i dont use it anymore and am thinking of thaking off the right hand side extension as it is only taking up room. i only use it for ripping as the chop saw does the crosscutting
ts 55 all the way for sheet goods. you wont look back unless you get a altindorf or a beam saw.
build your self a good cutting table and get the long rail and you wont regret it.
Guy Ashley
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[welcome] to the FOG!!
Like all the others I would jump for the TS55 and rails.
I have a fully equipped joinery shop and use the Table saw for ripping solid wood and even then if I have a waney or bowed edge I will use the 55 to give me a straight edge before putting it through the table saw.
As you will be using mainly ply there is no question the TS55 with guide rails and a good cutting table will give you glue ready cuts. A table saw unless you spend thousands on a Felder, Altendorf or similar will still not give you the quality of cut that the TS55 will.
Like all the others I would jump for the TS55 and rails.
I have a fully equipped joinery shop and use the Table saw for ripping solid wood and even then if I have a waney or bowed edge I will use the 55 to give me a straight edge before putting it through the table saw.
As you will be using mainly ply there is no question the TS55 with guide rails and a good cutting table will give you glue ready cuts. A table saw unless you spend thousands on a Felder, Altendorf or similar will still not give you the quality of cut that the TS55 will.
Welcome. I have the ts55 mft and a sliding tablesaw. I started off with mft and ts55 and it worked very well for me. But if u want to use it as a replacement for a table saw then u would need the mft or parallel guides along with the ts55 IMHO. In the long run u will find out that all three are required, unless u require portability outside ur shop.
rmwarren
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I started looking at Festool because I moved and did not have room for my Delta cabinet saw, it was about 84" wide and 48" deep without the flip-up extensions necessary to cut full sheets of plywood. The TS 55 makes better cuts with less stress (not having to manhandle a full sheet while cutting) so long as you have a stable cutting table to work on.
I do still keep a small contractor saw for ripping hardwood, as there are some things you can do in a pinch with the TS55 but they are still simpler with a table saw. For cabinets or other case goods you cannot beat the TS 55.
Be forewarned, Festool is addictive. I started with the TS 55 as a table saw replacement and then decided I NEEDED a dust extractor (in truth I did, without out one you end up filling your pockets with sawdust) and as long as I was getting the vacuum I decided to add a sander...
Fast forward to the Domino, then the MFT 3 (which really expands the utility of the TS 55) and I just added the OF 1400 router last week. It is the first router I have owned that I did not intensely dislike using, and the dust extraction is the primary reason. The Carvex is on order and I am trying to justify another sander.
The bottom line with Festool is that the system really shines when used together, i.e. the guide rails/MFT 3 with the TS 55 and routers and the dust extractor/plug-it cords with all tools.
I do still keep a small contractor saw for ripping hardwood, as there are some things you can do in a pinch with the TS55 but they are still simpler with a table saw. For cabinets or other case goods you cannot beat the TS 55.
Be forewarned, Festool is addictive. I started with the TS 55 as a table saw replacement and then decided I NEEDED a dust extractor (in truth I did, without out one you end up filling your pockets with sawdust) and as long as I was getting the vacuum I decided to add a sander...
Fast forward to the Domino, then the MFT 3 (which really expands the utility of the TS 55) and I just added the OF 1400 router last week. It is the first router I have owned that I did not intensely dislike using, and the dust extraction is the primary reason. The Carvex is on order and I am trying to justify another sander.
The bottom line with Festool is that the system really shines when used together, i.e. the guide rails/MFT 3 with the TS 55 and routers and the dust extractor/plug-it cords with all tools.
TJ Cornish
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Wow - the only dissenting voice so far.
I vote table saw, but not necessarily the Ridgid.
Others have clearly laid out the advantages of the TS saws for cutting sheet goods - that's absolutely true, and I use my TS75 for breaking down sheets rather than my table saw. That being said, for any part that is about 1/3 of a 4' X 8' sheet of ply or smaller, the table saw is a better tool, IMO.
I've drunk as much of the green KoolAid as anyone else, but to get all the utility of a table saw in the Festool world requires a lot more than $600 - (TS saw, extra rails, MFT (maybe a couple MFTs), Parallel guides, dust extractor - more like $2500), and a number of operations are still pretty fiddly compared to a table saw.
By all means get a TS55/75, but I think you'll be happier and more productive to start with a table saw. You can rip large sheets down with a skilsaw and re-cut on the table saw for a good edge. If you have a helper, you may be able to even cut whole sheets on the table saw without pre-cutting.
Edit: Pre-caffiene corrections
I vote table saw, but not necessarily the Ridgid.
Others have clearly laid out the advantages of the TS saws for cutting sheet goods - that's absolutely true, and I use my TS75 for breaking down sheets rather than my table saw. That being said, for any part that is about 1/3 of a 4' X 8' sheet of ply or smaller, the table saw is a better tool, IMO.
I've drunk as much of the green KoolAid as anyone else, but to get all the utility of a table saw in the Festool world requires a lot more than $600 - (TS saw, extra rails, MFT (maybe a couple MFTs), Parallel guides, dust extractor - more like $2500), and a number of operations are still pretty fiddly compared to a table saw.
By all means get a TS55/75, but I think you'll be happier and more productive to start with a table saw. You can rip large sheets down with a skilsaw and re-cut on the table saw for a good edge. If you have a helper, you may be able to even cut whole sheets on the table saw without pre-cutting.
Edit: Pre-caffiene corrections
+1 to TS55.
I made a pair of 4x4 tables by cutting 2x3s in half then making a square frame with some of them, screwing others to that frame on the ends while leaving gaps between them for clamping, then putting legs on them. Very simple and I find it works very well for me for a number of things -- a "poor man's MFT" in a way, but without all the fancy edge guides and such... dirt cheap and can be made quickly.
The depth of the 2x material means that I can let the saw cut into the top of the table without compromising it, as long as I avoid the very edges where the screws are -- that isn't a big deal.
I made a pair of 4x4 tables by cutting 2x3s in half then making a square frame with some of them, screwing others to that frame on the ends while leaving gaps between them for clamping, then putting legs on them. Very simple and I find it works very well for me for a number of things -- a "poor man's MFT" in a way, but without all the fancy edge guides and such... dirt cheap and can be made quickly.
The depth of the 2x material means that I can let the saw cut into the top of the table without compromising it, as long as I avoid the very edges where the screws are -- that isn't a big deal.
Wonderwino
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I have both a table saw and TS75. If I could have only one, especially handling sheet goods, it would be the TS55. I bought the TS75 to straight-line rip 2" rough ash, a task impossible on a tablesaw. I also had to rip joint-ready cuts on 17'-long stock, another task almost impossible on a tablesaw. (You need several qualified helpers and about 40' of space for the saw.)
When I first had the TS75, I just laid sheets of 1-1/2" extruded foam insullation on the floor to use as a cutting surface for sheet goods and the longer cuts. I used an adustable square to set the width of my cuts to the back of the rail (pre Parallel Guides). I squared the ends by laying a rail on the long side and referencing off it with a framing square to another rail on the perpendicular cut.
I now have the Parallel Guides and an MFT/3 which speed these operations. The other great thing is that the Festool system is more easily moved than my 5hp, 52" fence Jet tablesaw, which has been in my small shop for 15 years. [cool]
When I first had the TS75, I just laid sheets of 1-1/2" extruded foam insullation on the floor to use as a cutting surface for sheet goods and the longer cuts. I used an adustable square to set the width of my cuts to the back of the rail (pre Parallel Guides). I squared the ends by laying a rail on the long side and referencing off it with a framing square to another rail on the perpendicular cut.
I now have the Parallel Guides and an MFT/3 which speed these operations. The other great thing is that the Festool system is more easily moved than my 5hp, 52" fence Jet tablesaw, which has been in my small shop for 15 years. [cool]
hmmmmm.... a very sensible non Festool purchase response.....
I have nice TS set up, as well as the TS75 and all accessories....
So what do you value more?
TS55/75 benefits.
Portable, you can bring to worksite with ease, if that is an issue.
Incredibly clean cuts on sheet goods, with no worry of slight jagged that happens when sheet goods are not dead up against fence on TS.
Add MFT, you now have a very sensible and useful Radial Arm Saw replacement, great for cross cuts...
if you break down large sheets into long rips, like sides of book cases, having the long rail, makes this job easy with perfect cuts... not true till you step up to about $5k sliding TS.
If time is money, with the Festool system, your first cut is your final cut, vs. the rough cut then trim at TS, lots of extra work, more chances of errors.
Table saw benefits...
The Rigid line of TS have very small tables and very short fences... not ideal for sheet goods...
however, if you break down the sheets with rough cut circ. saw as mentioned above, AND the pieces are small, a small TS might suffice. But if the final pieces are large, as you are describing, small TS is tough to handle....of course, you can jury rig making a larger tabletop, fence system, etc. but at that point, it pays to step up to a cabinet saw...
TS great for cutting small pieces...
as a general comment... Rigid and other BORGs sell TS geared to construction trade, not fine woodworkers... low price table saws have low priced motor / shafts and bearings... (as well as other low tolerance components) all this equates to mediocre cuts, at best, and over time, the bearings get shot, making the cuts even worse.... so even if you try to rough cut and then final cut on TS, I would not suggest you get that type of TS... move to a small cabinet saw, go used if you have to..
I have nice TS set up, as well as the TS75 and all accessories....
So what do you value more?
TS55/75 benefits.
Portable, you can bring to worksite with ease, if that is an issue.
Incredibly clean cuts on sheet goods, with no worry of slight jagged that happens when sheet goods are not dead up against fence on TS.
Add MFT, you now have a very sensible and useful Radial Arm Saw replacement, great for cross cuts...
if you break down large sheets into long rips, like sides of book cases, having the long rail, makes this job easy with perfect cuts... not true till you step up to about $5k sliding TS.
If time is money, with the Festool system, your first cut is your final cut, vs. the rough cut then trim at TS, lots of extra work, more chances of errors.
Table saw benefits...
The Rigid line of TS have very small tables and very short fences... not ideal for sheet goods...
however, if you break down the sheets with rough cut circ. saw as mentioned above, AND the pieces are small, a small TS might suffice. But if the final pieces are large, as you are describing, small TS is tough to handle....of course, you can jury rig making a larger tabletop, fence system, etc. but at that point, it pays to step up to a cabinet saw...
TS great for cutting small pieces...
as a general comment... Rigid and other BORGs sell TS geared to construction trade, not fine woodworkers... low price table saws have low priced motor / shafts and bearings... (as well as other low tolerance components) all this equates to mediocre cuts, at best, and over time, the bearings get shot, making the cuts even worse.... so even if you try to rough cut and then final cut on TS, I would not suggest you get that type of TS... move to a small cabinet saw, go used if you have to..
Jesse Cloud
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I have both the table saw (Delta unisaw, fully tricked out) and a TS55. I use both, but the 55 gets 90 per cent of the use.
There's not really a wrong answer here. There's nothing you can do on a table saw that a 55 or 75 can't do and vice versa. Its easier to do through dados on a tablesaw, easier to break down sheets on a 55 but either can do the job.
For me, the big deal is that I work alone, I have a bad back, and lifting sheetgoods onto a tablesaw is just not a wise thing to do. I can put a ts 55 cutting table on sawhorses behind a pickup full of ply, slide a sheet onto the table and go to town. At first I just wanted to break down the sheets and do the final cuts on the Delta, but then I realized the TS was giving accurate and clean cuts, so why bother with the Delta?
My annual triage of tools that are earning their keep is coming up and the tablesaw is in jeopardy. It takes up a tremendous amount of space and doesn't get used enough to earn its keep.
A few things to consider:
If you go with the Ridgid R4512 TS you should plan to upgrade the blade. It comes with a crap blade, the TS55 comes with a great blade. The word on the Ridgid on the net is that it will take some work to get the outriggers aligned with the table, the blade aligned with the miter slot, and the fence aligned with the blade. And if you use it roughly, you will have to repeat that alignment. If you are making furniture, you will need to make a few jigs (crosscut sled, tenoning jig, etc.). To handle large sheets of ply, you should consider making an outfeed table.
If you go with the TS55 you will probably want to invest in extra clamps, maybe an MFT (read Deke's recent thread for pros and cons), the parallel guides if you are doing a lot of work). And Festool is addictive, sanders and routers will probably follow soon after.
In either case, for your health, be sure to have dust extraction. The Festool extractors are outstanding, but shop vacs can do in a pinch.
Let us know what you decide - we love pictures here!
There's not really a wrong answer here. There's nothing you can do on a table saw that a 55 or 75 can't do and vice versa. Its easier to do through dados on a tablesaw, easier to break down sheets on a 55 but either can do the job.
For me, the big deal is that I work alone, I have a bad back, and lifting sheetgoods onto a tablesaw is just not a wise thing to do. I can put a ts 55 cutting table on sawhorses behind a pickup full of ply, slide a sheet onto the table and go to town. At first I just wanted to break down the sheets and do the final cuts on the Delta, but then I realized the TS was giving accurate and clean cuts, so why bother with the Delta?
My annual triage of tools that are earning their keep is coming up and the tablesaw is in jeopardy. It takes up a tremendous amount of space and doesn't get used enough to earn its keep.
A few things to consider:
If you go with the Ridgid R4512 TS you should plan to upgrade the blade. It comes with a crap blade, the TS55 comes with a great blade. The word on the Ridgid on the net is that it will take some work to get the outriggers aligned with the table, the blade aligned with the miter slot, and the fence aligned with the blade. And if you use it roughly, you will have to repeat that alignment. If you are making furniture, you will need to make a few jigs (crosscut sled, tenoning jig, etc.). To handle large sheets of ply, you should consider making an outfeed table.
If you go with the TS55 you will probably want to invest in extra clamps, maybe an MFT (read Deke's recent thread for pros and cons), the parallel guides if you are doing a lot of work). And Festool is addictive, sanders and routers will probably follow soon after.
In either case, for your health, be sure to have dust extraction. The Festool extractors are outstanding, but shop vacs can do in a pinch.
Let us know what you decide - we love pictures here!
GPowers
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I think it come down to budget safety. If you go the Festool route you are going to need more then just the TS55. Your going to need the 3000mm guide rail, the Paralle Guides and the MFT/3 plus for clamps etc... to work with sheet goods safely and accurately.
The Festool way is a lot better than man handling a 4 x 8 foot panel across a Table saw.
The Festool way is a lot better than man handling a 4 x 8 foot panel across a Table saw.
GPowers said:
I agree with what you say with the exception of "need". I built a 33 cabinet kitchen with a TS55, 1400 rail, and mini vac. I subsequently have the domino, MFT3, 3000 rail, 1400, etc. I wanted them and they are certainly worth their value to me but I did much without them.
I suspect we are in "violent agreement" in actuality. Festool is a lot better than handling plywood panels.
Timtool
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in my workshop i wouldn't want to work with either really!
choosing between a modern german top notch handheld saw designed for on site cutting, and a piece of outdated tablesaw design designed to be 60 years behind the rest, it's up to wich one is the least annoying, cumbersome and time consuming method compared to a panel saw!
if you ony have a TS55, how can you handle small cuts, and solid wood?
i would say you eventually need both.
choosing between a modern german top notch handheld saw designed for on site cutting, and a piece of outdated tablesaw design designed to be 60 years behind the rest, it's up to wich one is the least annoying, cumbersome and time consuming method compared to a panel saw!
if you ony have a TS55, how can you handle small cuts, and solid wood?
i would say you eventually need both.
Jesse Cloud
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Timtool said:
With the MFT, the TS55 can handle small cuts. It takes more work than on a tablesaw, but its much safer.
I have seen a few comments lately that the TS55 can't cut solid wood. I don't understand this, unless the comment is that it won't cut deeper than 55mm. Most of what I cut on the TS55 is solid hardwood.
bonesbr549
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PapaPont said:
First I'll start that I have a 10" cabinet saw with 7' rails and large top that I got specifically to cut ply down. I found that in actuallity it was very difficult (in my set up) to perform that task safely. I then switched to a PC CS with a 7 1/4" forrest ww II blade and a strait edge to cut it down and it worked well but required a lot of fiddling with. When I bought the TS55 with track man oh man was that a nice change for two reasons. One it was a lot cheaper than a panel saw, and two I no longer have to lift the ply sheets up on the TS. I lay it flat down on a 2" sheet of foam insulation and cut it on the flat and the cuts are perfect. With that being said there are some things that the TS is just better equiped to do and that won't change. I find now that's fewer and few items. I use the MFT3/TS55 a lot just because I like the blade down when cross cutting. I would not however get rid of my TS though. If it were me, I'd look for a good used cabinet saw. They don't take up any more space than a contractor saw and is the center of my shop. After that the TS55 would be a good choice.
Desks? Really? I don't know how you build a desk all by your lonesome without buying or having access to thousand dollars worth of tools. That is if you intend to have a good desk at the end of it if you intend to have enjoyed the process at all.
Man, you're going to end up spending more than $500 on clamps!
That said, I guess the first thing you'll do is cut out the parts for the cases so go ahead and get the TS55 first. You won't need the table saw for a few days.
Man, you're going to end up spending more than $500 on clamps!
That said, I guess the first thing you'll do is cut out the parts for the cases so go ahead and get the TS55 first. You won't need the table saw for a few days.
TJ Cornish
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LOL. I agree - $600 isn't much to start a shop with.fshanno said:
