FWW Vac Review

[peter halle]

As you can see, Festool users, especially those that are members here, are very loyal to the brand.  Shame on anyone who would dare think that Festool products are not the best in their respective category.  There have been numerous instances when a member has posted that his XYZ brand was better than Festool.  Needless to say, they incurred the unbridled wrath of the FOG's membership, me included.

I hope you're being tongue in cheek here. One of the things I'm enjoying about this forum is the general even handedness about the pros and cons of Festools and other tools.

Just today I saw a comment about another brand of track saw being slightly better than Festool's model. No one jumped down his throat either. Rather, there was some mild agreement. I've also seen recent discussions of competing sanders, routers, and miter saws where Festool wasn't automatically assumed to be the best for all situations. Not to mention outright complaints about some things Festool. For example, Jacobs chucks.

Personally, I would not have been offended if Bosch still came out "on top" if tested with the bags. CFM wasn't the only criteria I was going by when I chose the CT 26. Getting distorted conclusions from a review article does offend me. And my general impression of this forum is that I am not alone in this view.

Ed,

you picked up on one of the many great things about this forum (IMHO);  you are allowed to speak your mind; pro or con.  All that we ask is that it is done politely.  There isn't any editing to kill off dissenting views if they are polite.

That being said, in all fairness, this is a forum for Festool users and enthusiasts.  As Neil mentioned it has occurred that someone will come here and post something that would not generally be "acceptable" to a group of enthusiasts, and members will post accordingly.  Likewise, we do not moderate unless the posts violate the rules of the forum that are clearly posted.

Also today there was a post about the lesser priced plunge saw.  After checking out that individual to make sure that he / she wasn't affiliated with the manufacturer, that post stayed.  If it had been the manufacturer posting here in order to advertise a competing product, then that thread might not be here - and I think everyone would understand the reasons why.

Thank you for your post!

Peter

 

[Alan m]

iv tryed to stay out of this debate but.....
anyway i red the artical and have to agree with all the coments about it being biased and opinionated and almost to the point of having the winner before the testing was done. i think i shall not remew my FWW subscription .
all reviews of tools should be done in real world conditions and with most of the brands represented. why was there no fein, dewalt,etc etc. they should have leveled the playing field with the hoses
they should use the bags, or use the reusable bags.

in this review they are adding apples and oranges but getting bananas. there is no merrit to it at all.
it makes me question the validity of their other reviews
why would you spend 500 on a vac and be too mean to buy the bags.
they should offer a pre seperator as an alternitive to filling the bags up unnessiserally

 

[alik]

The health of a woodworker is more important than a $5.00 dollar bag,also im sure that Festool vacuums are the most beautiful,better enginered and reliable out threre [big grin]

 

[Ken Nagrod]

Hi, all. I'm one of the authors of the article in question, and the editor of FWW. I think I can shed some light on our reasoning, etc. For starters I can assure you that advertising was not a consideration. We are well-known for our editorial integrity, and in fact lose advertising at times because of it. Our primary mission is to attract readers, and deliver the best magazine and website possible for passionate woodworkers.

I knew that leaving out the bags would be controversial, but here's why we did it (it's also explained in the article): They fill quickly, they are not really reusable (hard to empty), and they are relatively expensive. So while the Festool works wonderfully with its bags installed and acting as a prefilter, keeping the HEPA filter unclogged and flowing freely, we made a judgement call that for most woodworkers, the bags would prove to be a nuisance and a constant drain on the wallet and ultimately be discarded. Or they would hesitate to use the vac for general cleanup for fear of running through their bag supply too quickly.

Aside from these tough judgement calls, the other tough thing about head-to-head tool tests is that there are usually only one or two winners, while many of the tools would work just fine for most people. In this case, if you don't mind the expense of the bags, rock on. Festools vacs work wonderfully. But the Bosch that ended up being the winner because it lets you ditch its bags, and yet the filter remains unclogged, due to the vac's built-in filter shaker. That gives you much more capacity and zero bag expense.

Hope this helps explain things.

I've been a long-time customer of Taunton Publishing and I've always held them in high regard, but after reading Asa's post, HOLY CRAP!  What BS!  "We made a judgement call".  How about actually discussing things with other woodworkers, contractors, anyone who uses the products before blindly and stupidly coming up with test criteria to fit the masses AS YOU SEE IT.

Stick with sorting screws and nails and leave the product testing to more qualified individuals.

 

[Dan Clark]

Hi, all. I'm one of the authors of the article in question, and the editor of FWW. I think I can shed some light on our reasoning, etc. For starters I can assure you that advertising was not a consideration. We are well-known for our editorial integrity, and in fact lose advertising at times because of it. Our primary mission is to attract readers, and deliver the best magazine and website possible for passionate woodworkers.

I knew that leaving out the bags would be controversial, but here's why we did it (it's also explained in the article): They fill quickly, they are not really reusable (hard to empty), and they are relatively expensive. So while the Festool works wonderfully with its bags installed and acting as a prefilter, keeping the HEPA filter unclogged and flowing freely, we made a judgement call that for most woodworkers, the bags would prove to be a nuisance and a constant drain on the wallet and ultimately be discarded. Or they would hesitate to use the vac for general cleanup for fear of running through their bag supply too quickly.

Aside from these tough judgement calls, the other tough thing about head-to-head tool tests is that there are usually only one or two winners, while many of the tools would work just fine for most people. In this case, if you don't mind the expense of the bags, rock on. Festools vacs work wonderfully. But the Bosch that ended up being the winner because it lets you ditch its bags, and yet the filter remains unclogged, due to the vac's built-in filter shaker. That gives you much more capacity and zero bag expense.

Hope this helps explain things.

I've been a long-time customer of Taunton Publishing and I've always held them in high regard, but after reading Asa's post, HOLY CRAP!  What BS!  "We made a judgement call".  How about actually discussing things with other woodworkers, contractors, anyone who uses the products before blindly and stupidly coming up with test criteria to fit the masses AS YOU SEE IT.

Stick with sorting screws and nails and leave the product testing to more qualified individuals.

Ken,

Come on... Let it out.  Tell us how you really feel! [smile]

Dan.

 

[Ken Nagrod]

Dan,

I'm in a happy place right now.  I'm cuddling with my CT's bags that are too expensive for most owners.

 

[Dan Clark]

Dan,

I'm in a happy place right now.  I'm cuddling with my CT's bags that are too expensive for most owners.

Ken,

Me too.  Those bags are so expensive...  How expensive are they?!?  They are so expsnsive that I bought the convenient 20 pack a couple months ago for my CT22.  Of course that was just before I realized that I needed another CT and bought the CT26 (which doesn't used the CT22 bags).  That's OK.  I'll just go cuddle my CT22 bags too.    [cool]

Dan.

 

[bruegf]

Throw a dust deputy or thien baffle in front of the vac and the whole bag expense issue goes away.  I haven't replaced a bag since I bought my dust deputy.

Fred

 

[JSands]

While the UDD sitting atop the Festool vac sure does reduce the amount of Festool bags that get filled.... the suction level drops as fine dust particles clog the Festool bag.... its these fine particles the cyclone misses that clog the bags pores that restricts air flow... so I usually replace my Festool bags when they have barely a pint of dust in them, as the suction level drops too low for certain cuts.  Much of this ultra fine dust comes from sanding.  The UDD does catch 97% of the dust, but that 3% can add up fast and clog the bags skin...seems like a waste tossing out Festool bags that barely have any dust in them, but when I consider I changed-out the UDD bag $.79 each, about 2x on avg., that represents at least 3 - 4 Festool bags in dust volume.  So there still is substantial dollar savings if you create a high volume of dust...  If you make larger chips for dusts, the festool bag can last even longer...or if you don't need much suction, you will have a lesser desire to replace it.  I notice the suction loss on tools like my TS75 when cutting 2 stacked sheets...not all cuts require max. suction. 

I also notice it on floor sweeps, as with long hoses, handles, angles, etc.  this further reduces suction, specially with the long floor nozzles.... 

 

[greg mann]

While the UDD sitting atop the Festool vac sure does reduce the amount of Festool bags that get filled.... the suction level drops as fine dust particles clog the Festool bag.... its these fine particles the cyclone misses that clog the bags pores that restricts air flow... so I usually replace my Festool bags when they have barely a pint of dust in them, as the suction level drops too low for certain cuts.  Much of this ultra fine dust comes from sanding.   The UDD does catch 97% of the dust, but that 3% can add up fast and clog the bags skin...seems like a waste tossing out Festool bags that barely have any dust in them, but when I consider I changed-out the UDD bag $.79 each, about 2x on avg., that represents at least 3 - 4 Festool bags in dust volume.  So there still is substantial dollar savings if you create a high volume of dust...  If you make larger chips for dusts, the festool bag can last even longer...or if you don't need much suction, you will have a lesser desire to replace it.   I notice the suction loss on tools like my TS75 when cutting 2 stacked sheets...not all cuts require max. suction. 

I also notice it on floor sweeps, as with long hoses, handles, angles, etc.   this further reduces suction, specially with the long floor nozzles.... 

Wpuld the new self-cleaning bags help with this siuation?

 

[JSands]

Greg, dunno, I guess it would.... not sure how you clean them, or how often you would have to clean them....but it would prob. save the cost of replacing the Festool bags.... my guess is, the fine particles that make it past the cyclone will clog those bags just as fast.... how do you clean them?  Water?

 

[tbellemare]

The idea with the self cleaning bags is that they inflate when the CT is running and deflate when it shuts off. That knocks the particles that are stuck to the bag off, at least in theory.

Tom

 

[greg mann]

The self-cleaning bags are now out for the CT22 so I will get a chance to find out myself. It does seem they should help. IIRC, someone commented positively about their effectiveness while sanding drywall.

 

[tbellemare]

The new bags for the CT 22 and CT 33 are different. They are tougher than the paper bags and are also made of fleece but they are not designed the same. They don't inflate/deflate because they are more rigid.

The self clean bags are seemingly superior when sanding drywall.

Both styles appear to be significantly tougher than the paper bags.

Tom

 

[Ken Nagrod]

In my experience while using the CT 36 for capturing drywall compound during sanding, turning off the CT, waiting maybe 10 seconds and turning it back on was enough to regain the suction to continue for many more hours.  I was able to fill bags completely while retaining what I felt was excellent suction to the end.  I've used other vacuums that required I either stopped during the job to take it outside, completely disassemble, empty out the contents and blow out the internal filter/motor housing with compressed air before going back to sanding or just slap the vac silly and try to put up with it to finish out the day.

 

[semenza]

Dan,

I'm in a happy place right now.  I'm cuddling with my CT's bags that are too expensive for most owners.

Ken, stop cuddling  with your CT bags , and get back to cleaning your hole saws  [blink]

Seth

 

[JSands]

So Tom, how do you clean them?
How do you empty them?  Just let dust spew out into trash can?

 

[tbellemare]

You close them up and throw the whole thing away so the dust doesn't reenter the air.

They are a replacement for the paper bags, just made out of tougher material.

Tom

 

[KentonIwao]

From what I've read HEPA filter material is relatively delicate and will become more porous if it is  bombarded with high speed  particles and abraded during cleaning.  So the Festool bags protect the much more expensive HEPA keeping the suction consistent and also the exhaust air 99.97 % free of particle down to .3 microns.  It saves money, is more convenient, and protects your lungs from hazardous dust.  So obviously most woodworkers would rather not bother with any of that... um , really?  The ct 36 bags are $35.00 for a 5 pack($7 a piece) and they hold A LOT of material.  It is far too easy to pass judgment on the bags as being a hassle without having actually used the ct vacs from Festool.  They are stunning machines.

 

[JSands]

Sorry Tom,  I thought the new bags were re-usable...  thx for clarification.