Have Chinese tool manufacturers already overtaken their western competitors?

[AstroKeith]

And yet the Luban planes among other Chinese designed and made tools are exceptionally good quality.

True (although I dont find them 'exceptional' - just very good). I was meaning the planes sold in DIY stores etc.

 

[woodferret]

Thats more then an issue with your DIY store than anything.  One does not walk into a convenience store looking for a gourmet meal - ancient chinese proverb, probably.

 

[woodferret]

What stops them from literally flooding the market with price sensitive tools that are on par with those of western professional tool manufacturers quality wise? What's new to me here/ in this case, is that it is not a (western) branded product, it's their own brand & product

Well, they do own TTI, Chervon, and Positec.  All of which have well known western branded subsidiaries.  And taking Chervon as an example, they have a domestic (Asia & Africa) brand of Devon which focuses more on the industrial tool side.  I think they already flooded the market   No site is going to use Dewalts unless its the equivalent of wearing Levi's and not to do work.

 

[luvmytoolz]

Machinery wise, they were pretty crap until some years back, but they really have advanced in leaps and bounds, producing very nice quality machinery now in the more realistic price ranges (non bargain basement). I think there's a lot of stigma from many years back that people still hold onto.

Not to say there isn't crap stuff from China, there is, but the better stuff is definitely moving up the rungs. And as I mentioned before, I've bought plenty of high end branded products over the years that turned out to be crap. China definitely doesn't have a monopoly on that.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

I'm kind of mixed on all of it.
It seems like nearly everything is already being made there, so the "intellectual property" is already being disclosed to them. It doesn't take much of a leap to see them doing their own thing with it? They don't even have to purchase goods to copy, the western companies (who are trying to increase their profits) are providing it to them. Certainly there are "agreements", but what can they (or will they) do about it?
I am surprised that they don't just produce their own line of a lot of these products directly. They need better names than that Bang good stuff though. Bang good is a horrible name to start with and the rest are worse.
So many of the old American tool manufacturers have sold out and are just riding on that name that used to be something.  I really appreciate the ones who are still trying, but it's a "catch 22". Manufacturing here just costs more, yet those people who earn those higher wages still want the lowest price for the goods that they buy?
Quality and low price just don't go together, time costs money and quality takes time.

 

[mwolczko]

astronomy

Me too.  Some years ago I bought a Chinese-made telescope mount from one of the Big Two (the blue one; I’m sure you’ll understand) and it was a disaster.  I will never make that mistake again.  “Fool me once…”

In general, I try to buy (in all categories but especially for high-price items) from what is sometimes called “the free world”, and I’m willing to pay more for those items.

 

[Mini Me]

The next big market target is electric cars. The US has not seen it yet but China has started to export to Australia & NZ using 3 or 4 brands and one of those brands has built a production line specifically to supply both countries with electric cars to the tune of about 2,000 a month and they are sold for an affordable price. China has a stated goal of owning 85% of the world's electric car market and I would not bet against them achieving it. 

 

[aCircle]

For anybody who wants a *really* long read on the subject, the team at Keyboardio blogged their way through the process of building the Model 01. The entries starting around 2016 cover it all and go into amazing detail about what it took to coordinate and manage factories.

Just yet another reminder that like the rest of business, manufacturing is a human pursuit. It comes down to extensive networks built on trust, reliability, and mutual interest. If you’ve got the right team it really doesn’t matter where they are.

If you have the wrong team, or you don’t understand the folks you’re working with… there’s no saving any product.

 

[six-point socket II]

What stops them from literally flooding the market with price sensitive tools that are on par with those of western professional tool manufacturers quality wise? What's new to me here/ in this case, is that it is not a (western) branded product, it's their own brand & product

Well, they do own TTI, Chervon, and Positec.  All of which have well known western branded subsidiaries.  And taking Chervon as an example, they have a domestic (Asia & Africa) brand of Devon which focuses more on the industrial tool side.  I think they already flooded the market   No site is going to use Dewalts unless its the equivalent of wearing Levi's and not to do work.

My "idea" was, them entering the Market under their own brand & name and then actively competing against the established brands (like the manufacturer behind my laser level does) - not them just making tools for well-known and established brands as it is currently. And also not the very cheap (crap) products you can get at various places, but really an all in all competitive product that is cheaper because the "brand margin" is entirely out of the equation.

Kind regards,
Oliver

 

[woodferret]

Que?

Devon is their own brand and in the markets they occupy, have beaten 'western' brands because of availability and the 'marketing discount' for not having to do the same useless marketing spend.  Unlike Devon, EGO took another tack and have penetrated the western market and is up against Husqvarna's Gardena segment and Sunrises' Greenworks. 

And TTI isn't outsourcing tools for 'established brands'.  They own Ryobi, Rigid, Milwaukee and AEG.  They've also got the dirt cheap brands like Empire and Imperial.

I think we're confusing US companies like Stanley B&D who outsource to Chinese manufacturers with Chinese companies who actually own the manufacturing plants/partners and market into the US/Global.  Those tend to have very 'english' names so I can excuse the confusion thinking they're US companies outsourcing.  The domestic name brands typically aren't in english and hence aren't unsurprisingly on your radar.

 

[six-point socket II]

My mistake, I had never heard of Devon, Empire & Imperial before.

Kind regards,
Oliver

 

[RussellS]

My "idea" was, them entering the Market under their own brand & name and then actively competing against the established brands (like the manufacturer behind my laser level does) - not them just making tools for well-known and established brands as it is currently. And also not the very cheap (junk) products you can get at various places, but really an all in all competitive product that is cheaper because the "brand margin" is entirely out of the equation.

Kind regards,
Oliver

Regarding your last point.  "but really an all in all competitive product that is cheaper because the "brand margin" is entirely out of the equation."

Profit margin I suspect.  China understands capitalism very well.  There are probably not as many competitive products from China because that would eat into the profit margin.  It takes more money for the administrative side to advertise and promote a new name brand.  A name brand you are selling on quality and trying to capture market share.  The manufacturing cost is part of the equation.  But then add on all of the marketing costs.  Less profit margin in the end.  Whereas if you are making products for a USA brand company, you are only paying for the manufacturing costs.  You can negotiate with the USA brand to get a good profit margin that is guaranteed and eliminate any of the risk part of selling and convincing the public to buy your product.

100% chance to make $10 if you contract with a USA established brand to make a product.  Or...  10% chance to make $20 if you do all the marketing costs and everything works great.  But 30% chance to make $10 if you do all the marketing costs and things are just mediocre.  And 60% chance to make $5 if you do all the marketing costs and are not too successful.  Which is the best choice for the Chinese companies to make?

 

[six-point socket II]

Great point!

Kind regards,
Oliver

 

[grobkuschelig]

In my mind mind it always comes down to what you want to influence with your decisions. Do you want to reward someone with your purchase for building a product, best price being the deciding factor? Or do you want to support a company that has a proven track record of inventing, bringing new ideas and pushing the industry forward.

I’m not saying the latter is not able to be found in the PRC, but I think especially with the current global climate it is time to think about, if we really want to drive all the knowledge out of our own neighborhoods.
I think it’s a pity if we „forget“ how to make things in our own countries. And surely, if you need to pay years of development and want fair wages and a healthy company that will still be there in some decades, it all costs money…

The modern world makes us feel like our decisions are not overly important in the grand scheme of things. I believe the opposite. With every single decision/purchase we all shape the world we will live in tomorrow.

So. Enough semi-philosophical waxing. [emoji23] just my 2 cents…

 

[jeh]

Some tools are so well copied that one has to believe they are made in the same factory after hours.

 

[luvmytoolz]

Some tools are so well copied that one has to believe they are made in the same factory after hours.

No need for special after hours work, as in the case of Cisco networking equipment, just other assembly lines in parallel with the main.

 

[mino]

I don’t think Chinese tool manufacturers have overtaken their Western competitors yet, but they’re making a strong push. In recent years, the quality of Chinese tools has improved, and the prices have become much more competitive.

Well, there are no "Western tool makers" left anymore. So hard to talk about overtaking someone who does not even compete.

Festool and some smaller German makers are the only ones still making stuff "in the West" for the majority of their product range.

Even Festool, when they needed a cordless recip, had to go China-shopping for an ODM as there is no European ODM around for that type of a tool.

Yes, Dewalt & Co do owns the patents and have (some) engineers in the US. But let's not kind ourselves. The bulk of their manufacturing know-how is now in China and related. US staff is mostly inventory, support, marketing, sales etc. Same with all big tool makers.

From the "big" tool makers I believe only Makita (Japan, Europe), Bosch (Europe) and Metabo/Kikoki maintain a significant in-house manufacturing capability. And even that does not represent the majority of their sales anymore.

Chinese generally respect IP (despite the bull in MSM), but wait until some smart fella decides to "sanction" that. Overnight those Makita's and Dewalts' willl become "Hung-Fung" ans similar with the same hardware in use and with the same "Western" quality. Supply chains do not "just move" like that. It takes decades for them to be stood up as well as to wind down.

 

[ChuckM]

In the hand tool arena, only Veritas (Lee Valley) in Canada and, a smaller player, Lie-Nielsen in the US are left in N.A., offering a full range of hand tool products. There're some or individual makers of planes, saws, etc., of course, but they are limited or very limited in both offers and quantity. Some of them are single owners and makers.

Woodcraft and some companies based in North America or Australia carry brands that are designed by themselves but manufactured overseas.

 

[Packard]

From my experience, the Chinese are capable or turning out first class mechanical parts if they are complex and they need the input from Western engineers. 

But very simple things may be beyond their capability. 

A case in point:  We ordered 500,000 welded D-rings from a Chinese vendor.  These were low-tech D-rings used to hold down trucking tarpaulins.

We got them in.  They looked great.  Our customer sewed them onto the tarps.  And then the failures started.  The welds were failing.

We tested the D-rings on our tensile tester and we were getting failures at 120 to 150 pounds of static load.  The D-rings had full penetration resistance welds. 

The identical D-ring produced in our factory typically bested 400 pounds before failure.  Our setups had a 390 pound before failure as a minimum.

We could not figure it out.  We sent the samples to a testing laboratory to find out what the type of steel was used.  (High carbon steel is particularly hard to resistance weld.)

The print called for C1008 - C1010 low carbon steel.  This is the “plain vanilla” of steel, and is generally the lowest cost steel available.

I got a phone call from the lab.  They said it was of no identifiable grade of steel and the chemical composition varied.  They said, “It looks like they just melted down some steel scrap and turned it into wire.”

I did ask about the silicon content and that was substantially above acceptable.  Silicon will significantly compromise welds.

My point is, “this-project-is-so-simple-we-don’t-need-western-manufacturing-advice” is what got them in trouble. 

Which is why I say that difficult jobs work fine from China; it is the simple jobs that will trip them up.

 

[Packard]

In the hand tool arena, only Veritas (Lee Valley) in Canada and, a smaller player, Lie-Nielsen in the US are left in N.A., offering a full range of hand tool products. There're individual makers of planes, saws, etc., of course, but they are limited or very limited in both offers and quantity. Some of them are single owners and makers.

Woodcraft and some companies based in North America or Australia carry brands that are designed by themselves but manufactured overseas.

And probably some manufacturing oversight by the USA or European engineers.