Help on Spraying BM Advance/Regal Select

[JCLP]

As many of you know, spraying paint is a mystery to me. I have had so much difficulty in achieving a smooth finish coat with Advance that today I tried to return the client his down deposit for the kitchen I'm working on and he would not take it. He's in no rush and is confident that I will one day I will find the solution.

I have tried many combinations of thinning and needle sizes that I'm now asking you for your help.
I have the following equipment.
Fuji Q5, 5 stage, T70 gun, PPS system and all needle sizes that Fuji makes.
I was wondering for anyone who has successfully produced a smooth final coat with the same equipment, maybe minus the PPS system, but having the same gun if you could provide me with what worked for you. I will need to know the following;

Are you reducing the amount of air via the turbine or air valve near the gun.
What percentage of thinning
What needle and cap combination
How far are you from the surface
How big is your fan
Are you doing mulitple passes
etc.

BM recommends a stage 3 with a 1.3 needle and cap and 5-10% thinning with water. I tried this and I call BS on that. I was not able to get the paint to atomize properly.

Also, if there is anyone in the Greater Toronto Area who has had successs spraying Advance with a turbine based HVLP and is willing to give me a lesson, that would be greatly appreciated. I will pay you for your time.

Thanks in advance, no pun intended
JC

 

[JCLP]

Hi everyone. The pest is back.
Here is what I'm getting spraying BM Advance, colour Stone Harbor, Pearl Sheen

Sprayed with Fuji Q5, T70 gun, 1.3 needle and cap, 10% thinning with water, power on Q5 at approx 90%. Applied between 4-5 wet mils. This is after 24 hours of drying. 72 degrees, 30% humidity. Using PPS cup. I get this no matter what I do.

Stressed beyond belief,
JC

 

[JCLP]

Hi John. You may be right. Time to scrap BM. I'm assuming you sprayed Pro Classic. As there are 2 versions, which one would you recommend for cabinets?

JC

 

[JBag09]

JC,
  I’ve also read a lot of your posts and issues with BM paints. Like posted above, I’d try something else too. Are you able to get Kem Aqua plus in your area? I’ve only recently gotten into spraying and only use an Earlex 5500, had to mess around with the needles a bit to find the correct one. But KA+ is a dream to work with. If your able to get ahold of some, check it out.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[JCLP]

ProClassic Waterborne Interior Acrylic Enamel

I've been very pleased with it since I have been able to spray, roll and brush for projects with consistent quality. Only ever used white with ProClassic.

I have a Fuji Q4, 2 G-series guns gravity and siphon and T75 gun. PPS cups on any of them.

2 oz of distilled water (I keep a gallon in the shop, goes a long way), 2 oz of Floetrol, mix in paint to a total of a quart.

John. What size of needle and cap do use with pro classic.

 

[bnaboatbuilder]

Always have to look at the tips because the sets are different between the XPC and T75.

#4 is 1.4mm on the XPC, G-XPC

1.5mm on T75

 

[Alan G]

ProClassic Waterborne Interior Acrylic Enamel

I've been very pleased with it since I have been able to spray, roll and brush for projects with consistent quality. Only ever used white with ProClassic.

I have a Fuji Q4, 2 G-series guns gravity and siphon and T75 gun. PPS cups on any of them.

2 oz of distilled water (I keep a gallon in the shop, goes a long way), 2 oz of Floetrol, mix in paint to a total of a quart.

Have you (or anyone else) ever tried (sprayed) ProClassic Interior Waterbased Acrylic-Alkyd Enamel? Curious how that compares to the reg Proclassic Acrylic Enamel?

 

[tjbnwi]

ProClassic Waterborne Interior Acrylic Enamel

I've been very pleased with it since I have been able to spray, roll and brush for projects with consistent quality. Only ever used white with ProClassic.

I have a Fuji Q4, 2 G-series guns gravity and siphon and T75 gun. PPS cups on any of them.

2 oz of distilled water (I keep a gallon in the shop, goes a long way), 2 oz of Floetrol, mix in paint to a total of a quart.

Have you (or anyone else) ever tried (sprayed) ProClassic Interior Waterbased Acrylic-Alkyd Enamel? Curious how that compares to the reg Proclassic Acrylic Enamel?

I spray only waters.

Tom

 

[Alan G]

Tom-

Is that KA+?

How do you find the hardness of KA+ compared to a precat waterborne finish?

 

[tjbnwi]

Tom-

Is that KA+?

How do you find the hardness of KA+ compared to a precat waterborne finish?

That is Pro Classic Waterborne Alkyd. The paint was mixed when I needed to match existing trim in the home, sprayed it on the vanity.

To answer you question-KA+ is much harder than the paint. KA+ is also recognized as a cabinet finish. I've sprayed waterborne pre-cat epoxy, it is what I used on this ceiling, don't recall what I thought of the hardness.

Tom

 

[tjbnwi]

You dont want quick drying paint so it has time to flatten once it’s hit the surface.

You wanna spray everything horizontally so the paint can flatten better.

You wanna spray it thick in one pass so it flattens/self levels.

A HVLP doesn’t atomize many paints very well because it just doesn’t have the pressure behind the tip.  So you need to thin the paint but that’s not really ideal.

I have a Earlex 5500 and I was able to get a dead smooth finish but it was a pain and I had the filter paint a few times  190microns to avoid spitting/blockage.

Solvents, waterbourne, waterbased etc. All spray differently and different brands can vary a lot.

Example I sprayed Zinsser solvent based and Zinsser perma white water based.  I used same setup and same tip size and from looking at the paint in the tin they both look same consistency.

Yet the solvent based one I got slight orange peel and being solvent it never flattened.  Water based will often flatten after a day or two even though when it was first sprayed it looked orange peely.

I upgraded my spray system because I wanted something quicker and easier to spray with and be able to spray any paint with out worrying a HVLP won’t handle it. 

I would recommend you do the same to be honest saves you a lot of stress. 

Here couple pictures of what finish you can get with a better spray setup
I sprayed these yesterday

The cabinet was sprayed with it in the vertical position.

I did spray that with a Fuji Q4 HVLP turbine.

You want to spray at the proper mil rate, to thick and the finish can check as it dries.

The Pro Classic I shot was not thinned, I did use an extender in it.

For the record---I have 4 systems I can choose from.

Tom

 

[tjbnwi]

Maybe the word thick isn’t right I mean enough paint for it to flatten.

In his question is asked doing multiple passes. 

I found if your not getting good atomisation and do light multiple passes to build up the paint you just end up with same poor finish.  If you get enough paint on it should flatten.

You can spray vertical but it’s harder and higher chance of sagging or runs if you lay to much on.

The pictures above I posted was one just 10 seconds after I sprayed the panel vertical and then second picture when it’s dry.  The panel was kept vertical. 

Thing is I used a 10/20 tip at 140 bar pressure with 5bar air pressure.    With that I get ultra fine mist spray and it took no more than 3seconds to spray that panel maybe 4seconds.

Agreed, a single pass at the proper mil thickness is best.

The cabinet in my picture is probably 24 hours dry. The doors on the bench may be fresh.

Spraying with pieces in the vertical is a learned skill. It can go really well or bite you in the ***. It is something everyone should learn, they're are times you just can't lay a piece down.

I still contend finishing is one of the hardest parts of woodworking.

Tom

 

[cperren]

[member=5671]jmbfestool[/member] - can you provide the details on your latest sprayer.  Something less stressful would be great!  Thanks!

 

[JCLP]

[attachimg=3][attachimg=4]You don’t want quick drying paint so it has time to flatten once it’s hit the surface.

You wanna spray everything horizontally so the paint can flatten better.

You wanna spray it thick in one pass so it flattens/self levels.

A HVLP doesn’t atomize many paints very well because it just doesn’t have the pressure behind the tip.  So you need to thin the paint but that’s not really ideal.

I have a Earlex 5500 and I was able to get a dead smooth finish but it was a pain and I had the filter paint a few times  190microns to avoid spitting/blockage.

Solvents, waterbourne, waterbased etc. All spray differently and different brands can vary a lot.

Example I sprayed Zinsser solvent based and Zinsser perma white water based.  I used same setup and same tip size and from looking at the paint in the tin they both look same consistency.

Yet the solvent based one I got slight orange peel and being solvent it never flattened.  Water based will often flatten after a day or two even though when it was first sprayed it looked orange peely.

I upgraded my spray system because I wanted something quicker and easier to spray with and be able to spray any paint with out worrying a HVLP won’t handle it. 

I would recommend you do the same to be honest saves you a lot of stress. 

Here couple pictures of what finish you can get with a better spray setup
I sprayed these yesterday

Very nice finish.
As I am not doing much spraying/testing these days, due to health reasons, I have been looking at changing spray technologies. I have been in contact with Kremlin and they recommend, but there not 100% sure, the 15C25 pump. As it is an investment of approx. $6000.00 CAD, I have asked for a demo on spraying BM Advance and SW Pro Classic. I know it can spray Kem Aqua and other like products, but I want to see these 2 paints sprayed before I hand over my credit card.

Now, I have learned that Advance does not like air and spraying it with HVLP turbine can prove challenging. As per a BM tech, they recommend not thinning more then 10% as sagging could occur on sharp edges of doors or panels. Thus I've been thinning 9% in my test with water only.

I have also reduced the amount of air movement in my spray booth and moved the turntable farther away from the fans. Sprayed a couple of pieces this morning and we'll see what we getting tomorrow morning.

Cheers,
JC

 

[JCLP]

[attachimg=3][attachimg=4]You don’t want quick drying paint so it has time to flatten once it’s hit the surface.

You wanna spray everything horizontally so the paint can flatten better.

You wanna spray it thick in one pass so it flattens/self levels.

A HVLP doesn’t atomize many paints very well because it just doesn’t have the pressure behind the tip.  So you need to thin the paint but that’s not really ideal.

I have a Earlex 5500 and I was able to get a dead smooth finish but it was a pain and I had the filter paint a few times  190microns to avoid spitting/blockage.

Solvents, waterbourne, waterbased etc. All spray differently and different brands can vary a lot.

Example I sprayed Zinsser solvent based and Zinsser perma white water based.  I used same setup and same tip size and from looking at the paint in the tin they both look same consistency.

Yet the solvent based one I got slight orange peel and being solvent it never flattened.  Water based will often flatten after a day or two even though when it was first sprayed it looked orange peely.

I upgraded my spray system because I wanted something quicker and easier to spray with and be able to spray any paint with out worrying a HVLP won’t handle it. 

I would recommend you do the same to be honest saves you a lot of stress. 

Here couple pictures of what finish you can get with a better spray setup
I sprayed these yesterday

Very nice finish.
As I am not doing much spraying/testing these days, due to health reasons, I have been looking at changing spray technologies. I have been in contact with Kremlin and they recommend, but there not 100% sure, the 15C25 pump. As it is an investment of approx. $6000.00 CAD, I have asked for a demo on spraying BM Advance and SW Pro Classic. I know it can spray Kem Aqua and other like products, but I want to see these 2 paints sprayed before I hand over my credit card.

Now, I have learned that Advance does not like air and spraying it with HVLP turbine can prove challenging. As per a BM tech, they recommend not thinning more then 10% as sagging could occur on sharp edges of doors or panels. Thus I've been thinning 9% in my test with water only.

I have also reduced the amount of air movement in my spray booth and moved the turntable farther away from the fans. Sprayed a couple of pieces this morning and we'll see what we getting tomorrow morning.

Cheers,
JC

You seem very hooked on this particular paint why is that?

You should try test samples of other paints or work with a rep.

I had morelles come out and talk to me and took some timber samples and MDF and birch ply and they sprayed it with their product and he came back and showed me the results and I was happy so bought the paint.

$6000 seems high price.

You can spend a lot less and get a good system

My setup cost
£1200 pump
£1000 Gun/hose/tips/filters
£600 to 800 compatibile compressor.

£2800

With that system you have a two in one.
Portable Airless  and depending on compressor a portable airless air assisted.

So you can be in workshop spraying and then go onto site for touch ups or full spray.

Airless air assisted is like HVLP and airless combined.

Using a airless pump you have the high pressure for the thick paints.

Only downside really is paint paint to prime machine.  Takes a little but using a hopper and shorter hose it’s very small.  I can spray with as little as 250mm prime

I'm stuck on this paint because brushing by hand is involved in this project and I have tried several manufactures of paint, SW Kem Aqua, Valspar's commercial line, LKW5102  Waterborne Acrylic, not the stuff from Lowes and Duralaq and no one is able to match the colour close enough to not tell a difference. I know, and the client, that there will be a different look to the sheen between brushing and spraying and they are OK with that. Even BM is not able to match the colour close enough between Advance, Regal Select, Duralaq, Cabinet Coat etc. and SW, Valspar, Kem Aqua are not close enough either.  All of these have a red hue where the Regal Select has a green hue, which is what the client really wants.

As for the cost of the new system. £2800 is approx $5500 cad, including tax. I was probably wrong in saying $6000 as the Kremlin pump, with 2 tips, a compressor plus taxes would probably be closer to $5700.00 CAD

Cheers,
JC

 

[JCLP]

Here picture of the door 1 hour later

Thank you very much for the video and photos. Looks perfect to me and I'm sure your client would be happy. I know mine would be.

I'm doing a lot of research on how AAA, Airless and Kremlin's Airmix work and came up with a theory that might just work with an HVLP turbine. I love experimenting, eventhough it's sometime extremely frustrating, but you know what they say, Rome wasn't built in a day.
I'm still leaning towards a Kremlin solution, which is similar to yours but I want to make sure that I have tried absolutely everything with HVLP turbine before jumping on the Kremlin slide.

Thank you for all your help and advice.

Now it's time for a glass, or maybe several glasses of wine.

Cheers,
JC

 

[brewster201]

Sure looks like a Kremlin

 

[tjbnwi]

Sure looks like a Kremlin

jmb stated in his post said it is a rebadged Kremlin.

Tom

 

[brewster201]

Thanks for all the good info and photos. I really like the Xcite gun and not too many issues with tip plugging. The 15C25 comes with a pump discharge filter and the gun has built in strainer above the swivel. This my setup with a Kremlin one pass heater

 

[tjbnwi]

I go on.

The Kremlin Xcite has no inline filter so I believe you have a higher chance of tip blockage.

I’ve attached my gun and Xcite which has no filter

The black section of my gun houses a large filter largest filter in the air asssited market.

[attachimg=1]

[attachimg=2]

The Kremlin gun does have a filter, it is in the fitting that the fluid hose connects to.

I have a Graco and C.A.T. AAA guns.The y also have filters at the gun hose connection. I have a second filter housing mounted on all my pumps.

I have had a few plugs, I do strain the product and keep the equipment clean. I make sure I flush the hoses well after use.

Tom