Is Festool's patent expired on the TS saws?

[Mr Jones]

"Imitation is the greatest form of flattery"

I'm sure this saw and guide rail system will be available to everyone at all levels of interest in carpentry in about 10 years, all of us die hard festool owners had better prepare to hear it from our friends and brothers-in-law how they picked up this amazing saw to cut some wood at the weekend and all for only ?30.

Actually we should all be pleased that the safety and accuracy which the fantastic guide rail system has given all TS owners will be available  to the people who really need the help.

 

[Eli]

Welcome Jim Carson. ;D

 

[Mr Jones]

Not sure if it age or geography, don't know what you mean, trying hard to care....

 

[Eli]

Look further up the thread, it was Jim's first post...... I said welcome. Welcome to you as well Senor (NOT SENIOR) Jones

 

[Mr Jones]

Ahhhhh... welcome Jim, thank you eli. 

 

[Lou Miller]

Well done Lou. At last some less emotional stuff!

Well done, "Woodentop."  At least you weren't nasty in judging his post instead of simply thanking him for correcting your erroneous claim that the Festool saw does not have soft start.

OK, but I not into wasting time on such matters. Are you certain about the soft start?? LOL. If you are it's not a very good soft start! Go switch yours on.....if you have one.....see what I mean?

Woodentop,

I was trying to be polite when I last responded to you. Or as you put it, less emotional. I wasn't 100% sure that Festool considered it a soft start as I had never actually read that anywhere (I typically read very little of the documentation that comes with my tools though) and didn't want to look like a fool by saying something when I wasn't 100% sure. I was 99% sure though... David confirmed that the Festool TS55 indeed has a soft start. Mine seems to work perfectly, and I don't see how it could possibly be improved upon.

I'm not really sure what your point is with these soft start comments. Do you own a TS series saw? Does it not have a soft start? If your answer is yes to both of those questions, you might want to get it looked at. If your reason for being here is to simply bash Festool, that's perfectly fine with me. However, I only ask that you have your facts correct when doing the bashing. If any of their tools have flaws to them, I certainly want to know about them as that could be very helpful should I decide to buy that particular tool. The posting of false claims however, is not helpful to anyone.

I like a lot of their tools, but I'm not a Festool cheerleader either. They currently make 15 tools that I'd have a regular use for (the Kapex will bump that up to 16 when it becomes available in NA). I bought 9 of them (not counting the numerous accessories), decided that another manufacturer made a better version with 4 of them, and haven't completely decided on two of them yet. The ones I have may not be 100% perfect, but they all work very well. I'll most likely end up getting the 2 tools I haven't decided on yet, and I may even get one of the tools that I completely ruled out still. So I'm probably going to choose Festool for at least 11 out of 16 tool purchases (it may also end up being 13 out of 16). I can't think of another tool manufacturer that would even come close to that percentage.

 

[Daviddubya]

...If you are it's not a very good soft start! Go switch yours on.....if you have one.....see what I mean?

Woodentop - Perhaps you have an ATF saw, that was sold prior to the TS saws?  For sure, the TS saws have a very obvious soft start.

 

[gkeas]

Well done Lou. At last some less emotional stuff!

Well done, "Woodentop."  At least you weren't nasty in judging his post instead of simply thanking him for correcting your erroneous claim that the Festool saw does not have soft start.

OK, but I not into wasting time on such matters. Are you certain about the soft start?? LOL. If you are it's not a very good soft start! Go switch yours on.....if you have one.....see what I mean?

I have the TS55 and had the 75 and the soft start works fine.  Maybe you should have yours checked out if it doesn't seem to be working correctly.

 

[Greg Pavlov]

OK, but I not into wasting time on such matters.

You mean on confirming the accuracy of your claims?  I didn't think so 

Are you certain about the soft start?? LOL. If you are it's not a very good soft start! Go switch yours on.....if you have one.....see what I mean?

No, I don't have any idea what you mean, but that's ok: mine seems to start and stop as advertised.

 

[The Woodentop]

Ok, Ok, you're all right and I was wrong. I won't explain how I got the wrong end of the stick.....please just accept my apology for the string of errors? I put it down to the medication...........or lack of it!

 

[Eli]

I can appreciate a man who can admit when he's wrong. It's a trait I aspire to have someday.

 

[Zach]

Porter-Cable is also developing a plunge-saw with guiderail.  I saw a prototype at a Black & Decker conference last week.  They said it would probably be available in the US in late 2008.

 

[gkeas]

I can appreciate a man who can admit when he's wrong. It's a trait I aspire to have someday.

I'm sure, should it ever happen to me (being wrong, that is), that I'll admit it. ;D

 

[Daviddubya]

Woodentop - thanks for the feedback.  As I am fond of telling my wife, "I thought I was wrong once, but it was a mistake".  Smile.

 

[Dave Ronyak]

Does the new Makita saw/rail have a service organization to match that of Festool?  And does their saw have the precison bearings/zero axial play and runout that are in Festool's TS saws?  Although I am very satisfied with my Makita battery powered drill, and today almost bought a Makita impact driver, I see no reason to switch from Festool's saw/rail system.

Dave R.

 

[Dan Clermont]

Does the new Makita saw/rail have a service organization to match that of Festool?  And does their saw have the precison bearings/zero axial play and runout that are in Festool's TS saws?  Although I am very satisfied with my Makita battery powered drill, and today almost bought a Makita impact driver, I see no reason to switch from Festool's saw/rail system.

Dave R.

Hi Dave

I called our local Makita store and they plan to have this saw in a week. I am not looking to buy it. Nor am I planning on criticizing it. I am simply curious. Since I have bought my TS 55 and am very happy with it.

Several years ago LN started making nice handplanes. Veritas came along and made planes as well aimed at a certain price point. Both companies have done well and the handplane market has grown.

Having others make saws like the TS-55 only makes consumers more aware of this style of saw. I think in the end Festool will flourish with the added exposure. It's not like the Makita is cheaper then the Festool although it is much more readily avail here in Canada

Dan Clermont

 

[peter halle]

This sure has turned out to be an interesting thread.  Personally I think that competition amongst tool manufacturers is great.  It allows each of us the opportunity to purchase what we think we want based on whatever criteria is the most important to us.  I've been buying tools and using them professionally since the early 1980's.  As a beginning carpenter I bought entry level tools that I could afford.  As my career took different turns, I bought tools to replace those based on needs or perceived needs.  Now I look forward to pulling out my Festools when their use is appropriate for me and appreciating the features that made me want to buy them in the first place as they help me make a living.

Other manufacturers will copy what they can.  I remember back in the 80's when Ryobi was sued by Makita because of the color of their tools.  My guess is that Festool will survive just fine.  Sure, some of the uniqueness will wear off, but that will be substituted by the ability to claim that they were the first or that they do it better.  It was mentioned before in this thread that the publicity will be good for Festool.  I am sure that Festool will love it when the new tools out are compared to theirs and phrases such as original or benchmark or setting the standard are used.

Festool has succeded because they have created products to fill niches in the market.  That is what attracts all of us.  Whether it be a circular saw that allows almost anyone to cut a perfectly straight line or a drill with an offset chuck or a machine that cuts mortises into which you insert loose tenons.  If I am not mistaken, all of these things were possible before; Festool has found a way to to manufacture tools that allow us to do them easier or better.

When asked why I buy Festools, my first reply usually is :  "Because I have yet to have one of their tools not do what they said it would do."  The second reply is "Their tools allow me to do a better job."

Personally I also like the shade of green.

Peter Halle

 

[Bob Marino]

This sure has turned out to be an interesting thread.  Personally I think that competition amongst tool manufacturers is great.  It allows each of us the opportunity to purchase what we think we want based on whatever criteria is the most important to us.  I've been buying tools and using them professionally since the early 1980's.  As a beginning carpenter I bought entry level tools that I could afford.  As my career took different turns, I bought tools to replace those based on needs or perceived needs.  Now I look forward to pulling out my Festools when their use is appropriate for me and appreciating the features that made me want to buy them in the first place as they help me make a living.

Other manufacturers will copy what they can.  I remember back in the 80's when Ryobi was sued by Makita because of the color of their tools.  My guess is that Festool will survive just fine.  Sure, some of the uniqueness will wear off, but that will be substituted by the ability to claim that they were the first or that they do it better.  It was mentioned before in this thread that the publicity will be good for Festool.  I am sure that Festool will love it when the new tools out are compared to theirs and phrases such as original or benchmark or setting the standard are used.

Festool has succeded because they have created products to fill niches in the market.  That is what attracts all of us.  Whether it be a circular saw that allows almost anyone to cut a perfectly straight line or a drill with an offset chuck or a machine that cuts mortises into which you insert loose tenons.  If I am not mistaken, all of these things were possible before; Festool has found a way to to manufacture tools that allow us to do them easier or better.

When asked why I buy Festools, my first reply usually is :  "Because I have yet to have one of their tools not do what they said it would do."  The second reply is "Their tools allow me to do a better job."

Personally I also like the shade of green.

Peter Halle

  Pete and Dan,

Very well stated. I am in total agreement with what both of you have written.

  IMHO, Festool has been and will continue to be the benchmark against which others will be measured. Just look how in the last few years, Festool has become more popular. I don't hear, "Festool? Never heard of them" as much as I did 5, or even 2 years ago. Five years ago, Festool had a few dozen dealers here in the USA, many were contractors - carpenters, flooring installers (and one lucky Respiratory Therapist ;D ) now busnisses are knocking on Festool's door. Five years ago, most WW magazines hadn't reviewed Festool tools, now they do.
Other manufactureres took a look around and saw (no pun intended) something unique (TS SAWS) that was becoming increasingly popular and want a share in that market. It's a good business decision. I do think that Festool will benefit from the publicity and I also think that the newer saws will have a feature or two that is an improvement over the current TS saws, Festool will match improve/update their tools also; they always have. Competition is a healthy thing. I only sell Festool tools and I am not worried.

Bob

 

[Lou Miller]

Hey Bob,

Any chance we can get Festool to come up with some type of add-on to the existing TS saws that will match the anti-tip on that Makita saw? I think most of us agree that our saws as excellent just the way they are. However, I think most would also love to have some type of anti-tip feature as well. The guys with the 75 would like it the most I'm sure, but us 55ers would find it very useful as well.

 

[Dan Clark]

I'll weigh in too... 

Competition is healthy.  Festool make great tools and I'm happy with mine.    However, there are a few other companies (including Makita) that can make high-quality tools to compete with Festool. 

I believe that Makita's guide rail saw will further legitimize the market.  For us FOGers, using a guide rail plus circular saw to break down sheet goods makes massive sense.  But there are still a lot of people who ask, "What's the best way to cut a 4X8 sheet of plywood on my table saw?"  :  In the last couple of years, we're seeing more people answer, "Wrong question!  Use a circular saw plus guide rail!"    Makita's entry into the market should further that trend.

And it looks like Makita has added at least one nice twist to their guide rail offering - the anti-tilt feature.  This should bring some pressure on Festool.  This is great.  Having a few competitors nipping at your heels keeps you sharp.  Makita's competition will help keep Festool on its toes.   

I believe a key accomplishment for Festool is that they defied common wisdom that people only want cheap stuff.  They've grown quickly in a market where tools have gotten cheaper and cheaper.  Festool has shown that there is solid demand for high-quality tools!    They've gotten so much attention that Makita has joined the them. 

In another forum, a fellow posted this question about the Kapex:

What's so special about it that makes it worth so much? Does it do something the other brand leaders don't?

I responded with usual - quality, dust collection, light weight, etc.  But then I wrote:

Quite frankly, I'm getting tired of tools that don't live up to their marketing hype. Assuming that it's as good as the marketing materials say, the Kapex will be worth every penny to get a saw that actually works as advertised.

I got lots of positive responses on that comment.  And that's a key issuye for many of us.  We want the quality that we paid for.  Festool gives us what we paid for.  Many (but not all) Makita products do also.  Given the price of the new Makita saw, it looks like Makita will focus more on providing this quality. 

Regards,

Dan.