Kapex KS60E review and user comments

[Phil Beckley]

You ~are~ aware of the concept of questions, right? Phil - who ~is~ - has answered that the testpiece was likely crooked.

I'm also certain that matte will appreciate your condescending input.

Yes I am aware and answer them as best I can.....i am also aware of the sarcasm above.
I answered this morning while sitting at Gatwick airport and answered as best I could. The beam I used was also used when I trained the UK team on the 85. It is also possible that in a demo straight to camera and not edited I didn't push it firmly up against the fence......but I assure you the fence is flat and square. When I return I will do the same set up with the same beam and see if the beam is not square.
  Those who have met me know I do not do condescending - I try and help as and when I can
Phil

 

[Phil Beckley]

Uhm, what am I seeing here?

Probably the same I see when I put a test piece against the 100% square fence of my Kapex.

I just do not know why you bother Phil. Just waiting for a thread on the polo top you are wearing with the Festool logo not quite parallel to you trouser belt.

The KS 60 i have used over a period of time and it is a solid product from Festool. As it hits the dealers and the exhibitions try it out firsthand and then decide.....
and that is me done on this thread.
Rg
Phil

 

[Jimdude]

Those who have met me know I do not do condescending

You most certainly are not. It was obviously not directed at you. I'll add a quote to my previous post to make this more clear (if I can still edit it, of course).

 

[pingvinlakrits]

Hey, I am sorry for the direction in which this thread is going.

As an update I do think it is a pretty good saw. Well built with some minor things I think could have been done better.
I still don't think it rises above the competition in any way that I see important so I decided to not keep the KS60E.
It does not fill a void for me and I think it is overpriced for what you get - and I do factor in where it is made and most importantly: portability, cut quality and dust extraction is not on par with saws I have used in the past (dust extraction with CTL26E and 27mm hose - I have used CT22 in the past with same hose to greater effect than I get with the KS60 and CTL26E.)

I am not sure I can recommend it based on my own - albeit short - experience.  For a stationary saw the KS120 seems a better choice to me. For portability and agility I do think there are "better" saws out there.

I am quite sure a lot of users will find the KS60E a superb mitre saw, I am just not one of them.  [smile]

 

[Stone Message]

Hey, I am sorry for the direction in which this thread is going.

.....

I just do not understand why there is so much hot air floating around and I agree with your comment about the way the thread is going. Please do not allow the actions of others stop you from keeping us up to date with the KS60 - warts and all.

For those who have not handled or even touched a KS60 I would ask that you provide the information about the competition and your own experiences with other saws and not be too hasty finding or thinking that you might have found something to bash Festool with.

After all, if you were to buy a KS60 or any other bit of Festool kit, you will have 15 days with that tool in your workshop or on the back of your van and then still be able to get a full refund if it is not for you - far better than speculating or reading speculation.

Peter

 

[Michael Kellough]

I put a very high value on Henrik's posts (as well as Peter's).
No BS, just straight observation with a very useful dose of analysis based on long experience in the trade.

I wish the complainers who turn these threads to mud would just wait and evaluate the product themselves.

 

[pingvinlakrits]

Thank you Michael. 

A fair comparison would be the Metabo equivalent - the one without the SYM feature.
Both saws are forward projection saws and actually look similar. Let's review the specs:

Metabo              KGSV Xact 72        Festool KS60E      KGSV Xact 72 SYM (equal to non SYM except weight)
Blade/size/teeth  216mm 40T          216mm 36T
Cut Capacity        72x305mm              60x305mm
Mitre                      50/50                      60/60            50/50 + SYM Fence
Bevel                    47/47                      47/46
Input power      1800/1500W*)            1200W
Speed range    2200-6300/min      1300-3500/min
LED/Laser            Yes/Yes                    Yes/No
Weight                    16,1 kg                17,8 kg                  18,3 kg
Price              £444/SEK5595          £619/SEK8495        £548/SEK6615

Looking at the specs the KS60E has 60/60 for mitre which is great but for everything else it looks like Metabo has the upper hand: higher cut capacity, more power, a larger and more useful rev range and lower weight by no less than 1,7kg which is significant.  It even comes with a Laser.  [tongue] Just kidding.

There is really no arguing that the Metabo does have better specs on paper - and at a significantly lower cost.
The price difference in Sweden between the two is not marginal, it is HUGE. [eek]

What would the Festool have over the Metabo?
Dust extraction is normally Festools forte but with the 27mm hose it is not that great at all on the KS60E and the Metabo is said to have improved dust extraction with two suction channels. Maybe they are equal in that regard and both would probably fare better with a 36mm hose over the 27mm hose. The Metabo might be great with regards to dust extraction - but I haven't seen it in action.

Blade brake is absent on both the Metabo and the KS60E. The Metabo I think takes a little longer to spin down the blade to a stop after each cut which is a pity. None of them are stellar in this regard but both are surely better than my old Makita. It is normally nothing I worry about but when doing bevel cuts / crown molding or chopping down small pieces I do like saws with blade brake. A blade brake is nice to have and neither one has it.

Accuracy and Cut quality?
I don't know. Some blade wobble on the KS60E and a less than stellar cut with the standard blade was a let down for me.  The Metabo has a higher rev range and a 40T blade as standard. I have not tried the Metabo and it could be more prone to sample variation so could be better than, on par with Festool or inferior. This is just speculation, of course.
I would love the opportunity to compare them.

Made in Germany vs Made in China?
The KS60E is well built and feels solid, as do all levers and knobs. Yet, in action it does not inspire that same confidence the KS120 has. I am assuming the KGSV XACT is made/assembled in China. But I am not sure of it. What I do know is that the XACT SYM feels pretty solid. I did fondle one briefly when I picked up my (made in China) Metabo 18V SCMS. From memory it is well made but not to the level of the KS60E.

I am contemplating the Metabo XACT or XACT SYM but it is a 45min drive to the nearest place that has one of them in store and wrong side of town for me. If I get a half day off I might head out for an assessment. I think they only have the SYM in store but I am on the fence about the added weight, literally.

*) 1800W s1 100% 1500W s6 20% @ speed settings/input?  [unsure]

 

[glass1]

show us the blade wobble  If it has blade wobble why have you not returned it ? I would not accept blade wobble even on a free saw 

 

[mwildt]

Great job Henrik! Thanks!

On the blade wobble I wonder if it could be the blade. One could take it off and put it flat on a table top to check. if not then arbor runout check would be next.

The Metabo sounds nice spec wise and all. Not sure if I read the specs correct in regard to your need for cutting baseboard standing up.

 

[Stone Message]

Uhm, what am I seeing here?

ETA: it would explain matte's problem (from the other KS60 thread):

The fence is looseable. At the top of the fence there are 4 hex bolts. I tried myself to make the kapex cut square. Tried for several ours. One time i thought it was square, but it wasn`t. When i made a cut with a piece of wood at the left side of the fence ( so the wood piece was at the left side of the blade) it was square. Butt when i made the same cut at the right side of the square it wasn`t square. I don`t know what the problem , i cannot solve the problem myself , thats why the saw will go back to festool. I think that a mitre saw at this price point must cut square. i will keep you informed about the kapex ..

....the beam I used had been used previously for a rip cut....the chances are the HK saw was not set to square.....or I hadn't pushed it fully to the fence

The fence on the KS60 is square.
Rg
Phil

I am not sure if anyone has posted the link to the video from which the image above was taken. I will paste the link in below.
{edit - yes, I have just spotted the link to the video above at Post 6}

If you look closely at the video when Phil is setting up for the cut into that glulam you will see that the back edge of the wood is flat against the rear fence all the way except the last 50 mm or so. There is no way that the right hand fence is bent and so it is that last 50 mm of wood that has suffered during some previous demonstration - just as Phil said.

Do not worry, when I get a KS60 in front of me I will put my Veritas straight edge along the fence line.

Here is the link:


Peter

 

[pingvinlakrits]

show us the blade wobble  If it has blade wobble why have you not returned it ? I would not accept blade wobble even on a free saw 

   

True - I no longer have the saw. I might be overly sensitive about it as a lot of mitre saws have a slight wobble when spinning a blade but I was telling it as I saw it.  I will try to upload the video later on. 

Great job Henrik! Thanks!

On the blade wobble I wonder if it could be the blade. One could take it off and put it flat on a table top to check. if not then arbor runout check would be next.

The Metabo sounds nice spec wise and all. Not sure if I read the specs correct in regard to your need for cutting baseboard standing up.

The specs are correct but you can cut larger standing stock than what the spec sheets indicate - but only on thin stock.
I am fine with cutting baseboard on the flat but it I prefer stand up cuts on 70mm baseboard or smaller.
And yes on the blade but I didn't keep the saw so could not check the blade. It seemed to cut square but I did not test it on thicker stock or larger stock for deviations.

 

[ach_78]

Thanks for the honest review, as I was sceptical from day one about that LED shadow thingy. Pretty big bummer. Cheap engineering choice here.

The dust extraction is usually Festool's flagship bulletpoint, if it is sub-par then it is a real problem. I'll wait for more feedbacks with a 36mm hose though.

The slow spindown is only a problem if you wait for complete blade stop before you lift the saw, which I have never done on my Bosch saw and I have never suffered a single kickback on that saw.

I'd be interrested in knowing :
- is there a detent at the vertical 0° position (square cutting) and is this detend adjustable (set screw as a stop or else ?)
- is the LED adjustable sideways in case the light is not perfectly centered with the blade plane
- is this saw throwing offcuts or kickback sensitive like the KS120

 

[pingvinlakrits]

Thanks for the honest review, as I was sceptical from day one about that LED shadow thingy. Pretty big bummer. Cheap engineering choice here.

The dust extraction is usually Festool's flagship bulletpoint, if it is sub-par then it is a real problem. I'll wait for more feedbacks with a 36mm hose though.

The slow spindown is only a problem if you wait for complete blade stop before you lift the saw, which I have never done on my Bosch saw and I have never suffered a single kickback on that saw.

I'd be interrested in knowing :
- is there a detent at the vertical 0° position (square cutting) and is this detend adjustable (set screw as a stop or else ?)
- is the LED adjustable sideways in case the light is not perfectly centered with the blade plane
- is this saw throwing offcuts or kickback sensitive like the KS120

Slow spindown can be  a problem when cutting bevels/standing miters and the stock rests on the blade after the cut or flings back if there is some tension in the wood. Same with cutting off small keepers - it is not the kickback, it is having small pieces flying off in very direction.

I have almost never had kick back on my Makita (except for cutting scraps in a heap which is stupid anyway) but small parts have a tendency to fly off at times if I raise the blade prematurely. My Makita has a higher rpm and very long spiiiiiiiiiiiiindooooooooown though so more sensitive than the Kapex KS60E.

A 36mm hose will probably help out. I only run 27mm hoses on my on site equipment for compatibility with other tools but in a shop environment or semi stationary set up a 36mm hose would make sense.

Yes there is a zero stop. It can be adjusted.

LED was not as useful to _me_ as I would have hoped.
It cannot be adjusted - but it isn't supposed to be adjusted. At point of contact you can always trust the shadow produced in this configuration.

I like adjustable Lasers better. I always check first cut with blade tooth so I am not worried about laser being off after that. In too bright sunlight I check with the tooth/blade anyway and/or make a length stop for repeat cuts.

I don't know if the Kapex KS60 is as kick back sensitive as the KS120. 

 

[drible79]

I too have had a bitter sweet experience with my first Kapex.  Having seen the reviews on YouTube (thank you Peter and Dave) I eagerly opened my new toy when it arrived and fitted it to its new UG cart.  Having owned a heavy Dewalt which was sold to fund this purchase I was delighted with the weight and size. 

The machine felt well build and the slide mechanism is sublime.  I then went about checking it for true and square.  The fence was not and is not square to the bed.  Its out by maybe 0.5mm which for my DIY needs is sufficient, however, not what I was expecting.  I was also surprised when I discovered that it wasn't cutting square either, out by 1mm over its full cut length.  I went to adjust it and the hex head bolts on the fence were so tight from the factory that I rounded two of them trying to remove it.  Fortunately I managed to loosen them sufficiently that I could remove them and replace them once square.  I had the light on my previous saw and I have to say I quite like it.  I tend to simply align my blade with my cut line but its useful if you are using it with a less experienced friend/family member.  I haven't used it in anger sufficiently yet to talk about its dust extraction qualities but I suspect it is better than any mitre saw I have used to date. 

The UG cart is a god send.  I have a standard one car UK garage and to be able to fold it up and move it about with ease actually makes me more inclined to use it for jobs I would previously have not bothered with.  The extensions are a good design and I am glad I have them but the tapes on them are infuriatingly inaccurate.  Not only are they out against all of my other tapes but they are not consistent along their own length as if they have been stretched in places whilst being installed.  That rather defeats the purpose of having them for me as I had hoped to use them in conjunction with a tape for bang on cuts.

 

[slimm]

I found the ks60 to be an utterly pointless saw for anything other than cutting flooring. I returned mine within a day and ironically I was the second person that week to have returned one.

 

[demographic]

In the 20 or so years I've been a carpenter I dont think Ive seen anyone cut skirting (or baseboard if your American) stood up on the saw.
Its always been layed flat.
I stopped cutting it stood up when the Nobex was retired.

 

[Harry1561]

In the 20 or so years I've been a carpenter I dont think Ive seen anyone cut skirting (or baseboard if your American) stood up on the saw.
Its always been layed flat.
I stopped cutting it stood up when the Nobex was retired.

I've been a carpenter for almost 40 years and always cut skirting board stood up when possible.

 

[pingvinlakrits]

In the 20 or so years I've been a carpenter I dont think Ive seen anyone cut skirting (or baseboard if your American) stood up on the saw.
Its always been layed flat.
I stopped cutting it stood up when the Nobex was retired.

Funny how people work the same type of cut in completely different manners - but hopefully with the same results.
I prefer baseboard standing up as blade splintering will occur on the backside or underside and not on visible parts of the baseboard, at least in my experience and with the blades I use. I also find it easier to trim angles this way.

But I sometimes cut baseboard on the flat. I am not rigid in my workflow and my preference to standing the baseboard up is simply because the most common size over here lend themselves well to be cut this way. Less bow in longer lengths too.  I have no tally on how other carpenters go about it but from memory I have rarely seen cuts on the flat except for larger moldings.

Larger moldings I cut on the flat. For obvious reasons.

 

[Scoox]

To anyone reading this now, I actually bought the Metabo KGSV Xact 72 and ended up returning it. It had some annoying issues, as follows (sorry if the terms are wrong as I'm new to mitre saws and I'm not sure what the various bits are called):

• Lock knob arm has a spring loaded support foot underneath. The height of the foot is adjusted by turning it. The problem is the two ends of the spring are like sharp barbs that catch onto the metal chassis and the foot plastic, respectively, resulting in the support foot being able to turn only one way. In other words, it will go in but won't come back out unless you use other tools to pull the spring back so it doesn't catch. A washer can be used to prevent this so the fix is simple.
• Bevel stops have too much play, rendering them useless.
• Bevel mechanism doesn't properly support the beveling assembly, which is rather heavy, so you have to try your best to support it and keep it from moving with one hand while you tighten the locking nut on the back with the other. This wouldn't be a big problem if the bevel stops didn't have any play, but they have play.
• The left fence failed to slide all the way in and it appeared Metabo factory operators had tried to correct this by making the corresponding slot a bit longer... using a handheld drill. The idea was good but the execution was poor. The results were not pretty and the slot ended up being longer than it should, causing the fence to slide too far in instead, essentially trading one problem for another.
• Blade not centered relative to the insert slot (in my saw the blade sat almost 2 mm closer to the the left
• This one is hard to explain without showing you a picture, but basically the plastic trigger has a big hole at the bottom with a very sharp edge around its perimeter. This may seem trivial and, admittedly, YMMV depending on hand size but I operate the trigger with my index and middle fingers, while the ring and pinky rest below the trigger. What happens is the sharp edge catches the side of my ring finger as I pull the trigger, pinching my skin almost every time. This proved insanely annoying, because you can't just pull the trigger, first you have to check your finger is out of the way, so eventually you get into the habit of deliberately moving your ring finger down in a way that doesn't feel very ergonomic. Had I kept it I would have taken out the triggered and filled it with epoxy putty to cover the hole.

Credit where it's due though:

• Laser guide is good
• Overal build quaility feels solid
• Sliding bearings are smooth
• Feature-wise it really ticks all the boxes

After reading this thread I'm beginning to think the perfect miter saw maybe doesn't exist.