Kapex ??

[Lou Miller]

Just curious, but why don't you just go get the Hitachi back from the guy who worked for you?

I never bought any tools for my employees. It was clearly understood that they were there for them to use, but not take with them at the end of the day. Then I decided to get rid of them all... the employees, not the tools.

 

[jimg]

Well, he brought in a job so I gave it to him as a bonus. So it was his, I just assumed that he was going to stick around. What's the old saying...when you assume you make an ass out of u and me....

 

[Lou Miller]

Found this posted on another site.
http://www.festool.ch/artikel/artikel_weiterleiten.cfm?id=4296

Some nice pictures of the Kapex you may not have seen. What's cool about these pics is that you can zoom in very close and see whatever details you want. For example, I was able to answer my question on the size of the blade. I was able to zoom in enough to read the writing on the blade. 260mm x 2.5mm. Basically 10.25" x 3/332" for the non-metric using Americans

 

[Mirko]

Drool Oh man, Full screen pictures!

Mirko

 

[bill-e]

Lou, thanks...that is nice.  Imagine a SCMS with working dust collection.  My Bosch spits it back at me.

 

[fcraven]

Found this posted on another site.
http://www.festool.ch/artikel/artikel_weiterleiten.cfm?id=4296

...you can zoom in very close and see whatever details you want. For example, I was able to answer my question on the size of the blade....

FIRST POST

Finally a chance to see what it looks like "up close". Very nice. I'm on the verge of buying my first Festool products--greatly delayed. Years ago I almost bought some "Festo" tools, but opted for an Inca Table saw instead (it made sense at the time, and it is a nice table saw). But now I have a need for portable quality. I'm going to buy an MFT 1080, and one of the circular saws. I was thinking of getting the TS75 just for those times when one needs to cut a 2x (at an angle); however, most of the time it would be overkill.

With the photos, I realized that once I get the Kapex, that need will be covered. The old CMS should hold out until then.

I still need an excuse for a domino...

As far as I can tell the biggest problem with the product is it's name, "Kapex"--it just sounds and looks a little bit too much like some items which are available in the supermarket.

 

[Per Swenson]

Heck Festool can call their tools anything they want.

We give 'em their own names and identities on the job site.

Greatly enhances communication.

It also helps them acclimate and all for use by the crazy Americans.

Per

 

[Paul Franklin]

Not to get everyone excited, but the Kapex will be available in Europe as of April, so I bet we are looking at about April 2008 if the time schedule is the same as the Domino.

Here is a link to the PDf file, but its still in German.
http://www.festool.de/images/bilder/news/news_4_07/kapex/Download_Brochure_Kapex.pdf

Paul

 

[Dan Clark]

Paul,

Thanks for posting this.  My German is virtually non-existant, but enough to make out some of the key metrics (pardon the pun).  Since I have a decent miter saw (Bosch 4410L), it would very difficult to remotely rationalize buying a new one, but...  Some things I noticed are:

- It's small and light.  Since I store my saw on a shelf when not in use, this is a biggie.  At 67 pounds (with stand attachment) the Bosch is a bit of a handful to setup and store.    21.5 kilos should be about 47 lbs if my math is correct.  That's a less weight to lug around.

- It has dual lasers.  I was skeptical of the usefulness of lasers until I got my Bosch.  After I got used to it, I found that cutting boards using a story stick and lining it up it up with the laser gave me fast accurate cuts.  That is, with one exception - my Bosch only has 1 laser.  You need to adjust for that.  Lose a bit of concentration?  Well, you toss the wood on the offcut pile and cut a new one.    With 2 lasers, that should be less of an issue.

- Dust control - I assume that dust control will be much better.  On my Bosch, dust control is fair at best, even when hooked to the CT22 with the 36mm hose.

One potential downside is the vertical handle.  When I compared the Bosch to the Makita LS1013, which also has a vertical handle, I found I much preferred the Bosch's handle in it's horizontal position.   

I'll probably never get one, but it looks like it will score at least 9.7 (out of 10) on my drool meter.  ;D

Regards,

Dan.

 

[jimg]

I just saw a price listed on a British site - 669GBP, or just under $1300 for the basic setup. The release date in England is April 16.

 

[Lou Miller]

$1,300??? That's a little too steep for me. I'm sure its going to be a really top notch performer, but I'll never be able to justify that kind of expense for a SCMS.

 

[Forrest Anderson]

I just saw a price listed on a British site - 669GBP, or just under $1300 for the basic setup. The release date in England is April 16.

I don't know if it's the same company that Jim saw, but the slightly oddly-named Bunny's Bolts in Woking, Surrey, UK, at http://www.bunnysbolts.com has the following announcement:

IMPORTANT NOTICE - We do not have any stock yet but are taking orders for those who want to be first in line when we get our shipment. All orders taken will be put in strict order on a first come first served basis. 240v machines will start to arrive mid to late April and 110v machines are planned for Autumn 2007. So if you have been waiting as long as we have for this machine then maybe, just maybe you want to place your order now and  be first in the queue. Remember the DOMINO sold out almost immediately when launched and we thought that was a niche product. The KAPEX is a mainstream machine with a far wider appeal and we expect demand to far outstrip supply in the initial launch period. So place your order now and be one of the first. Be reassured in the knowledge that we are taking all orders with the clear option for cancellation at any time and receive a full refund.

MORE NEWS - For a preview of the KAPEX come and visit us NEXT FRIDAY AFTERNOON, that's the 9th March for a look at the new mitre saw from FESTOOL. We are really looking forward to trying this machine out and welcome your visit too.

FESTOOL  KAPEX 120 EB GB includes HW universal saw blade Z 60, bevel, work piece clamp, operating tool.
£669.00 + VAT

Since standard UK/US currency conversions sometimes don't work too well for tools, here are some other prices from Bunny's Bolts so you can see where the Kapex might fit in to the scheme of things:

Item.	Price in Pounds Sterling before tax.	Price after 17.5% tax.
Kapex	669	786.08
Domino	436	512.30
C12-MH45-Set: Drill with standard, right-angle and offset chucks	349	410.08
PS 300 EQ-Plus GB jigsaw in SYSTAINER	199	233.83
EHL 65 one handed planer	179	210.33

Another UK dealer - Power Tool World athttp://www.power-tool-world.co.uk/festool/ks120eb.htm - is also offering the Kapex at 669 GBP + Tax, and says the list price is 836.00 GBP.

Forrest

 

[Bob Marino]

$1,300??? That's a little too steep for me. I'm sure its going to be a really top notch performer, but I'll never be able to justify that kind of expense for a SCMS.

Hey Lou,

I haven't a clue what the USA price will be, but I am sure it won't be $1300.00

Bob

 

[Dan Clark]

Forrest and Jim,

Good posts.  I took a look at the numbers, made a few assumptions, crunched the digits for a while and came up with an intro price of about US $1050.

Here's my rational.  Assume that the Domino is currently available in GB for the NON-intro price of 436 Pounds Sterling.  Since the US Intro Price of the Domino is $660, this is about 94.3% of the normal US list price.  Assuming that the intro discount prices in GB are similar, that means the intro price of the Domino in GB was about 411.09 Pounds Sterling.  Dividing the Kapex by the Domino intro price (669 by 411.09 pounds sterling), we get 162.7%.  I.e., the intro price of the Kapex is approximately 162.7% of the Domino intro price.  So, if we multiply the Domino intro price ($660) by 162.7% we get (kaching) $1,074.08!

Now let's take a look at the markets...

The Domino is UNIQUE.  That's good and bad.  The good is that it can do things that no other tool can do.  The bad is that this new paradigm may be difficult for some people to accept. 

OTOH, the Kapex is NOT unique.  It's an SCMS.  But it's much lighter, presumably better quality, has great features, etc., etc.  So...  Relative to the Domino, should it sell for more or less than the Domino?    Tough call, but I'm betting that it will sell for a somewhat lower price relative to the Domino. 

I think that the Kapex will hit our streets with an intro price of between $1050 and $1075.

Regarding "When"...  Did anyone pick up on the fact that Bunny's Bolts will offer the 110 volt model in August?  I suspect that it will hit our shores sometime between Jan 1 and April 1, 2008 (primarily constrained by manufacturing capacity).

Don't you just love idle speculation?

Regards,

Dan.

 

[Lou Miller]

$1,300??? That's a little too steep for me. I'm sure its going to be a really top notch performer, but I'll never be able to justify that kind of expense for a SCMS.

Hey Lou,

I haven't a clue what the USA price will be, but I am sure it won't be $1300.00

Bob

Bob, I hope you're right. I think you know me well enough by now to know that I'm a huge fan of Festool. However, paying that much money for a SCMS just doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Instead of defending Festool like I normally do on the forums, I'd probably be chiming in with the critics if that were the price of it. There are some very well made SCMSs on the market today. Around $500 gets you an excellent machine. The way I see it, there's not a whole that can be upgraded on current SCMSs other than dust collection. I'm sure the Kapex will be best in class in that area though. Its just a question of how much is that worth to an end user? Who knows, I could be totally wrong and the Kapex could be a ground breaker in some area that I'm not considering though. I have a hard time envisioning what that area would be other than dust collection.

I'm intrigued by the Kapex very much so. I'll keep an open mind about it until we see an actual price and more importantly I can actually check one out in person. Being that I've spent thousands of hours using SCMSs during my life, I think Festool should ship one to me and let me elvaluate it for everyone

 

[Forrest Anderson]

Dan

Here are my calculations, using a different method, and they give a similar result to yours:

The Kapex is being advertised for 669 GBP + 17.5% tax in the UK, so the price the public would pay would be 786.08 GBP

The UK C12 set with chucks and NiMH battery is 349 + 17.5% = 410.08 GBP.

The UK Kapex is therefore being sold at 1.92 times the price of the UK C12.

I think that Bob Marino is offering the same C12 set (his item #PC1230S) at $510

Assuming the US Kapex will be sold at 1.92 times the price of the US C12, this would give 1.92 x $510 = $977.62 for the US Kapex.

We can do the same for the jigsaw...

The UK PS-300 EQ Plus is 199 + 17.5% = 233.83 GBP.

The UK Kapex (at 786.08 GBP) is therefore being sold at 3.36 times the price of the UK Jigsaw

Bob's price of the PS-300 EQ (his item #561097) is $280

Assuming the US Kapex will be sold at 3.36 times the price of the US Jigsaw, this would give 3.36 x $280 = $941.29 for the US Kapex.

Lastly, we can try a planer. In my last post I gave details of the EHL65 65mm planer being sold by Bunny's, but Bob only seems to sell the 82mm HL-850 model. I'll therefore use the Bunny's price of the 82mm HL 850 planer to use as a comparison.

The UK HL-850 is 285 + 17.5% = 334.88 GBP.

The UK Kapex (at 786.08 GBP) is therefore being sold at 2.35 times the price of the UK Planer

Bob's price of the HL-850 (his item #574539) is $430

Assuming the US Kapex will be sold at 2.35 times the price of the US Planer. this would give 2.35 x $430 = $1009.37 for the US Kapex.

If we average the above three speculative Kapex prices based on the drill, jigsaw and planer, we get $976.10, so my guess would be in the $980-$1000 area

Assumptions regarding the above calculations which may or may not be correct

I am assuming that the items sold by Bunny's and by Bob are the same, and that both sets of prices are representative of dealers on both sides of the Atlantic
I have applied the UK sales tax to the UK prices, but have not taken into account any additional taxes which might be added to US prices. I am assuming that the prices on Bobs website are what the US public would pay.

Lastly, and unrelated to the Kapex - many thanks to Dan for your recent reviews, which I found very interesting!  ;D

Forrest

 

[jimg]

Here is the site where I found the price.
http://www.power-tool-world.co.uk/festool/ks120eb.htm

 

[mantonuc]

Hey Lou,

  One thing that I was thinking that the Kapex could bring to the table that no other SCMS currently does (or none that I am familiar with) is "micro-adjustments"...  With the manner in which houses are slapped together these days, it is very common to find corners of walls that are not "exactly" 90 degrees...  I have seen some as bad as 3-4 degrees off...

  I purchased a instructional DVD from Gary Catz a few months back that is called "Mastering Crown Molding".  In it, he mentions that any corner that is off by my than 1/2 of a degree should be compensated by adjusting the SCMS.  I currently have the Dewalt 12" SCMS and it has detents to lock it into position.  That is great, but that also makes it very tough to get close to the angle without the tool "pulling" itself towards the detent.  So, small increments off of 45 degrees are very difficult to achieve.

  I have tried doing the compound angles to cut crown but found that even harder to get accurate.  If the Kapex gives the ability to adjust angles ever so slightly in both miter and bevel, that would make it more easy to compensate for less that perfect angles in walls...  I have yet to do any crown molding that is stain grade but and getting ready to in the near future.  I could see the Kapex as being the right tool for that job...

Matt

 

[Lou Miller]

Matt,

Most better miter saws today have some type of an override for the spring mechanism that causes the detents to engage. I have a Makita and a Bosch. Both have similar setups. My old Dewalt didn't have anything like this and it could be a PITA to use at times. When it comes to any kind of molding work, I'm as meticulous as can be, so this is something that is pretty important to me when buying a saw.

Now when it comes to the bevel angle, none of the saws that I'm aware of have much in terms of locking in a precise bevel angle other than 0, 33.9 and 45 degrees. If the Kapex has something different along these lines, that would sure be nice.

 

[mantonuc]

Nice work there Lou.  I especially liked some of the curved cabinets you did.  That is one area of wood working that I have yet to accomplish...  Eventually, that is something I want to get into...  As far as the Kapex, I hope bevel detents are something that Festool works into the design...

At some point, I need to post/link pictures of some of the projects I have done.  A lot are paint grade, but some are pretty intricate...  I am getting ready to start doing a lot of stain-grade work in a movie theatre soon.  If only the Kapex could be available soon...

By the way, I am originally from a city just outside of Philly.  Is North Wales anywhere close?  Recently, I purchased a bunch of Cherry from Hearne Hardwoods and had it shipped down south.  Nice wood...

Matt