Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions

[solyxius1]

[member=11196]Peter Parfitt[/member] et al

FWIW, having just taken delivery of my Mark II today from Carbatec in Australia, I just wanted to provide a positive report for others ... (Carbatec, concerned after reading this thread, wrote to Axminster who confirmed that the batch they received, was manufactured post improvements to the manufacturing process).

I have found that both of my Parf sticks appear to be identical, with what appears to be machined rather than punched holes, and with the threaded pin in hole zero I can drop the longer drill guide into any hole with absolute ease, the scales on each rule also align perfectly. Fingerprints along both rules, fractionally raised painted lettering on both.

Bottom line, no issues detected whatsoever, to this point - yet to use to complete a 2400 x 1200 top  [thumbs up]

 

[Stone Message]

[member=70294]Solly1[/member]

Many thanks for providing your understanding of the situation.

Good luck with that large top. Remember to start in the centre of the long side and extend equally left and right in order to reduce the chance of an error.

Peter

 

[Mike Goetzke]

I received my replacement stick set today.

First, took almost two week to get them and the box looks like the one posted earlier that looked like a car rolled over it. I noticed they used a different carrier than they did for my original order.

Yes, the sticks are bent. I tried to straighten them as best I can but they are a bit wavy now.

Good news is they are drilled holes and not punched like the originals, buy, seems like the holes are a bit smaller in size.

There is more bad news. Neither the pin nor long drill guide will go through the holes without a lot of force (then it is very difficult to remove). I found I can't even get these to drop through a single rule. The pins and short drill guide do drop in easily.

Don't want to sound like a whiner - just at a loss what to do. Can't understand how a few of us can be so unlucky. To have a nice set of square holes all these parts need to compliment each other with tight tolerances. Do I now have pins and drill guide that are out of tolerance? It seems impossible or very unlikely these parts are being checked 100% (or maybe not accurately). Sorry - just frustrated.

Mike

 

[Jiggy Joiner]

I received my replacement stick set today.

First, took almost two week to get them and the box looks like the one posted earlier that looked like a car rolled over it. I noticed they used a different carrier than they did for my original order.

Yes, the sticks are bent. I tried to straighten them as best I can but they are a bit wavy now.

Good news is they are drilled holes and not punched like the originals, buy, seems like the holes are a bit smaller in size.

There is more bad news. Neither the pin nor long drill guide will go through the holes without a lot of force (then it is very difficult to remove). I found I can't even get these to drop through a single rule. The pins and short drill guide do drop in easily.

Don't want to sound like a whiner - just at a loss what to do. Can't understand how a few of us can be so unlucky. To have a nice set of square holes all these parts need to compliment each other with tight tolerances. Do I now have pins and drill guide that are out of tolerance? It seems impossible or very unlikely these parts are being checked 100% (or maybe not accurately). Sorry - just frustrated.

Mike

Not sure what to say Mike, that is trully bad luck on a few counts.
The packaging looked similar to international packages I’ve been sent without issues.
The holes being too tight, as you say is a concern simply because you don’t know if the holes are too small, or the pins too big?

I think the best solution now, is to contact Axminster, and suggest a complete exchange for the whole system?
Also possibly put a length of timber into the tube to help protect the rules, in the event they take a hit again. Or a thicker tube?
You must be very frustrated but, rest assured they will sort this out asap.

 

[rmwarren]

Totally agree with Jiggy, seems like you've drawn the short straw multiple times. My replacement stick arrived via TNT/FedEx in the same packaging and not damaged.

I mated the 2 sticks up & tested all holes and they were a precise slip fit with a little pop/click. Given you've had the same tight fit on multiple sets of sticks I'd suspect the OD of the pin/guide is the issue.

I have zero doubt that [member=63423]AxminsterTools[/member] will make it right.

RMW

 

[Mike Goetzke]

Totally agree with Jiggy, seems like you've drawn the short straw multiple times. My replacement stick arrived via TNT/FedEx in the same packaging and not damaged.

I mated the 2 sticks up & tested all holes and they were a precise slip fit with a little pop/click. Given you've had the same tight fit on multiple sets of sticks I'd suspect the OD of the pin/guide is the issue.

I have zero doubt that [member=63423]AxminsterTools[/member] will make it right.

RMW

This last package came TNT/FedEx but my original Parf Guide System and another order I place cam DHL. The DHL packages were pristine and the items were packaged much better. New order and after sales shipping must be different?

 

[Mike Goetzke]

New order and after sales shipping must be different?

That’s my experience as well - the two latest new orders were shipped DHL, the two Parf Stick replacement packages I received were shipped TNT/FedEx.

If Axminister is watching here just a packaging suggestion. I don't think tubes ship well even domestically. I recently received a long extrusion that use to to be shipped in a tube but it came in a long square box. I also ordered some side moldings for my car and they were in a tube but it had a stiff cardboard angle taped to the outside. Thinking this is for stiffness and to prevent it from rolling under something like a tire [wink]. 

 

[rmwarren]

New order and after sales shipping must be different?

That’s my experience as well - the two latest new orders were shipped DHL, the two Parf Stick replacement packages I received were shipped TNT/FedEx.

Now that you mention it I had the same experience, all stock orders are DHL. Could have something to do with how they ship standard orders from their primary logistics/fulfillment center versus shipping replacements.

FWIW the DHL shipments have gotten to me in 2-3 days (US east coast) which absolutely blows my mind given the very reasonable shipping charges and sometimes awkward (long/skinny) packaging.

RMW

 

[Klemm]

[member=4518]Mike Goetzke[/member] - [member=67413]box185[/member] – Richard/RMW
Your packaging comments back up our decision to ship the Parf Guide System in rectangular boxes from Day One. We will take this topic up when we next meet with AXMINSTER. Your comments provided additional ammunition to make improvements.
Shipping and packaging are a never ending opportunity for improving customer experience.

Thanks guys for posting
Hans and Eric

 

[Mike Goetzke]

[member=59331]TSO Products[/member]

Just to be clear, the original purchased part delivered by DHL was in a rectangular box. The replacement was shipped by TNT in a round tube.

 

[rmwarren]

The original orders are basically double packaged, 1st in their retail display tubes and second inside the shipping box.

Even so, I suspect a careless handler somewhere in the shipping chain could still mangle them without too much effort.

RMW

 

[TSO_Products]

[member=59331]TSO Products[/member]

Axminster shipped this package to me using DHL. It was a new order for three additional Parf Sticks. The package has clearly been stepped on - that may be why it was split open.

The sticks inside were not bent, but the condition of the package may help you insist on changes at Axminster.

[member=67413]box185[/member] - thank you for the picture which I will share with AXMINSTER Tools now and also use it when I discuss packaging among other topics during my upcoming AXMINSTER Tools management level meeting in Axminster, Devon, UK . I have to tell you that as a company, their top management is most receptive to feedback aimed at improving the customer experience. We all agree that prevention is more cost effective than "making good afterwards".

Hans

 

[solyxius1]

Your packaging comments back up our decision to ship the Parf Guide System in rectangular boxes from Day One. We will take this topic up when we next meet with AXMINSTER. Your comments provided additional ammunition to make improvements.
Shipping and packaging are a never ending opportunity for improving customer experience.

Thanks guys for posting
Hans and Eric

[member=59331]TSO Products[/member] - seems like the perfect opportunity to discuss instigating, what seems to be on the surface, obvious improvements to the execution ...
a) a quality check at the end of manufacture that emulates the tests we are all doing in this thread to identify discrepancies before they reach customers (e.g.a highly accurate machined rack with 17 x 6mm posts that each ruler is stacked upon, or discarded if not able to be)
b) the same checks retrospectively performed on all in stock units before they go out to customers
c) a packing and shipping protocol that maintains the integrity of the system, rules in particular, in transit

[member=4518]Mike Goetzke[/member] - can't but help feel for your bad luck - one thought, is it possible the bending of your rules has "stretched" them thereby misaligning / distorting the diameter of the holes just enough to cause the issues? Pin diameter tolerances aside of course.

 

[Mike Goetzke]

Since most of the holes were undersized, I was not able to look at hole alignment between different sticks.

[member=67413]box185[/member]

I was holding back to comment until I received my third set of rules, but, looks like you have the same issue I had with the CNC'd rules.

Axminister is trying to take care of me as many have said. Once I found they were sending me out a third set I couldn't stop myself from looking at the second set of rules I received that were bent that I tried to straighten. The appearance of the holes on the CNC'd rules is shinny from afar compared to the punched original rules. I looked at the holes closer with my visor-magnifiers and saw some fine crud in the holes. So I took out my HF needle file with a convex profile and very lightly scrubbed around the holes. I could now get the shoulder bolt and long drill guide to fit in the stacked rules  [big grin]. It doesn't drop right in but it fits like a glove!

This begs the question though why the short drill guide and pins seem looser. At least you would think the drill guides would be similar in size.

Bottom line, barring poor packaging and/or poor handling, If I get a straight set of rules, I may need to deburr the holes, but, should be ready to make my tables.

Mike

 

[Mike Goetzke]

The appearance of the holes on the CNC'd rules is shinny from afar compared to the punched original rules. I looked at the holes closer with my visor-magnifiers and saw some fine crud in the holes.

I also saw those crud flakes on the bench when I tried pressing the drill guide into the 6mm holes - a powder substance that may be related to anodizing, but I'm not certain.

So I took out my HF needle file with a convex profile and very lightly scrubbed around the holes. I could now get the shoulder bolt and long drill guide to fit in the stacked rules [big grin]. It doesn't drop right in but it fits like a glove!

I thought about doing this too - thanks for confirming that it works. I guess I should be happy that I received straight sticks.

[member=67413]box185[/member]

OMG yet another issue  [scared] - after reading your post I tried out my drill guides in the holes again. Like you said they do not sit flat on the rule - they actually rock quite a bit. Again I pulled my magnifying-visors out and there is material that has been rolled proud of the surface of the rule (most likely during the chamfering process). I have a chamfering tool and corrected it on one hole but these rules are thin and don't want to loose the main bored hole. Probably safer to sand them down but then you scratch the printed surface. Better yet Axminister should have used a back-deburring tool.

I think they need to consult with an engineer for a few hours to fix this design up. Just a few relatively simple corrections needed to make their customers happy and their pocketbooks fatter.

Mike 

 

[Klemm]

TSO has received notice that the latest shipment of Parf Guide Systems Mark 1 and Mark 2 from AXMINSTER has cleared customs and we expect to start shipping this coming week to fulfill all open orders  [smile]

Tracking numbers will be generated automatically and emailed to all our customers as the shipping labels are generated.

Thank you all for your patience and support!
Hans and Eric

 

[gnlman]

Rec'd my third set of rules and same issue....threaded pin very hard to push in hole one of both rules so I could check for alignment. I did ask before the rules where shipped to me to have someone inspect them. There were finger/smudge marks on the rules unlike my second complete set I was shipped...so I was hopeful. I had to spin the longer shouldered drill guide in most of the holes as they are very tight most have loosened up... still a few stubborn ones... and there are ridges, mostly on the bottom of the rules, but upon checking again some on the top also.Now my longer shouldered drill guide has some ridges on the shoulder from spinning it to get it to set in the holes.. it still fits fairly snug though but can rock a bit in some of the holes....the holes do line up much better visually than my last set of rules, but when putting pin in 32 and 48 holes it does pull the rules out of alignment a bit...not sure if that is a big deal, nor am I sure if the slight ridges on a few of the holes on the top will cause any issues....there are more ridges on the bottom of the rules..thinking I'll take a chance and try another top...hopefully not wasting another 60 bucks turning a sheet of melamine into swiss cheese....If the folks checking the rules were just checking for alignment I can see where they would have thought these were fine...I'm starting to feel like I'm a "problem customer", but I ordered these mid November last year and the issues keeps going on. I know they will look after me, but it's getting hard to be excited about this product as time goes by and my project keeps getting delayed....but it's certainly not the end of the world...I'm just a hobby guy.
I am wondering if there are any other folks that have used this system, and have tighter holes perhaps with ridges on the rules that made a new top with good results..hence my reason for posting this before contacting axeminster again....
Greg

 

[solyxius1]

I have found that both of my Parf sticks appear to be identical, with what appears to be machined rather than punched holes, and with the threaded pin in hole zero I can drop the longer drill guide into any hole with absolute ease, the scales on each rule also align perfectly. Fingerprints along both rules, fractionally raised painted lettering on both.

[member=4518]Mike Goetzke[/member], [member=67413]box185[/member], [member=8389]gnlman[/member]

So it seems whist my previous observations holds true, I haven't avoided issues that prevent using the system ... I'll try my best to explain. Let me know if you see a better test method.

1) The rudimentary test of threaded pin in one end, double depth drill guide in any of the other holes, only seems to alerts you to any longitudinal discrepancy. With threaded pin in 0, and double depth drill guide in 10, clamped down - awl in 10 then drill guide tested in holes 5-9 reveal some lateral discrepancy on my pair of sticks. With some coaxing I can register the guide, but this results in some lateral deflection of the ruler. Your rules could marry, but this only proves they match, not that they are true.

2) There seems to be maybe 1 to 1.5mm flex possible in the middle of the rules with hole 0 and 10 pinned. Perhaps working inwards from the ends and registering pins (although only 3 provided) either side of the hole to be drilled would minimise the chance that you flex the rule while applying downward but perhaps slightly lateral pressure on the drill guide whilst drilling.

3) With a test set of a single row of 10 holes, and UJK dogs in holes 0 and 10, a third dog in any of the holes 2-9, results in a Veritas straight edge rocking to varying degrees around the middle dog pivot point, worsening at 0 as you move the central dog closer to 10. With a dog in 9 and 10 anchored, and the straight edge pulled tight to these dogs, the discrepancy at hole 0 is approx 2mm (8=1.75mm, 7=1.25mm, 6=1.1mm, 5=0.75mm, 4=0.6mm, 3=0.25mm, 2=0.1mm). At 1 and 10 it's negligible at 0. It therefore appears I have a "bow" in rule #1 from holes 2 to 10.

Same process with ruler #2, the discrepancies are in the same direction, but inaccuracy approx halved. See Point 1.

4) I understand that the edges of the rules are not to be used for any form of reference, but the "bow" explained above is also mirrored with the top or bottom edges of the rule up against the straight edge, and magnified if the rule is flipped over. It can also be exhibited by applying the straight edge to the pins inserted in the rule. Both my pins (within 0.04mm) and rules (within 0.1mm) appear to be relatively consistent widths according to my mediocre calipers for this test to hold some merit - the rule edges may bear no reference to the holes, but I would presume they are intended to be machined somewhat straight and parallel.

5) It's possible these discrepancies could be compounded, depending on which way you position your rules to do rows and columns, and magnified further over longer runs than 1000mm highlights (in my case more than doubled over 2400mm).

About to contact the local supplier in Oz (Carbatec, hopefully as helpful as Axminster) and pick up some more MDF stock to test the triangular impact of the discrepancies noted ...

Cheers
Solly

 

[gnlman]

Interesting..sounds like my second set of rules..they deflected as well with threaded pin in hole one and drill guide in hole ten.
I should have added to my last comment, that the rules I just rec'd I checked with veritas straight edge are completely straight...no rocking at all when straight edge held against both sides of both rules.
Greg

 

[Mike Goetzke]

"Calling all machinists" - what methods/tools could be used to cleanup the burr on the chamfer that is proud of the ruler surface?