Recessed LED Light Discussion

[Mini Me]

I need to look for those promos .got a quote for puck lights... Ouch

I have always been curious about why puck lights are so popular in the US when down lights straight into the ceiling are way cheaper and appear to do the same job. Sorry for the off topic question but my curiosity has gotten the better of me. 

 

[Cheese]

I have always been curious about why puck lights are so popular in the US when down lights straight into the ceiling are way cheaper and appear to do the same job. Sorry for the off topic question but my curiosity has gotten the better of me.

That's because until 2-3 years ago the large commercial US manufacturers, think Halo, Juno, Feit or Commercial, were not offering simple all-in-one LED solutions. Their solution was a traditional can recessed light but with a tethered LED, they called them retrofit kits. So you still had the installation issues and the height issues associated with cans.

Here's a Halo retrofit kit used with a traditional can versus a newer Juno all-in-one light. The newer Juno is also capable of varying the color temperature with a slide switch.

[attachimg=1]

[attachimg=2]

About 10 years ago I wanted to install exterior soffit lighting in the house. Traditional recessed cans would not fit because of the restricted height/space and my ONLY solution was to install puck lights.  [sad]  Hopefully, I will find the time this year to replace them with the small/thin all-in-one style Juno/Halo LED's that I'm installing in the garage soffit.

 

[rvieceli]

[member=44099]Cheese[/member] those lights are nice but still kind of old school down lights.

Might want to take a look at these flush mount led panels. Flush mount to a standard box fully lit panel, different color trim rings if desired. Selectable color temp on the unit and decent CRI.

They come in a few sizes 5 inch diameter, 7 inch, 14 inch.
https://www.superbrightleds.com/catalog/product/view/id/226418/s/lprcct-sw5a-10w5-x/category/3941/+housingcolor-White

Ron

 

[rmwarren]

[member=3192]rvieceli[/member] [member=44099]Cheese[/member] you might be able to answer an LED light question for me. When we built, I used Leviton Vizia VP106 dimmers, which are rated for incandescent lights only. We have 5" cans with 65w flood light bulbs (& lots of them...).

I've swapped out a couple rooms to LED's and was forced to change the switches also, no surprise. I think this is due to the LED drawing so little voltage that the electronics in the switch doesn't recognize that lights are connected and it never fires up.

My question is whether any of the newer LEDs get around this issue? I'd like to swap out more lights as time passes but needing to replace the switches also is a PITA & additional cost.

Thanks.

RMW

 

[Cheese]

[member=44099]Cheese[/member] those lights are nice but still kind of old school down lights.

Might want to take a look at these flush mount led panels. Flush mount to a standard box fully lit panel, different color trim rings if desired. Selectable color temp on the unit and decent CRI.

They come in a few sizes 5 inch diameter, 7 inch, 14 inch.
https://www.superbrightleds.com/catalog/product/view/id/226418/s/lprcct-sw5a-10w5-x/category/3941/+housingcolor-White

Ron

I prefer the looks of a true flush mount LED Ron...but the selectable CCT and the integrated driver is pretty slick. I don't know why it's taken so long for manufacturers to include the selectable CCT?  Offering the exact same light in 3 different trim colors and 4 different light temperatures means they have to maintain a minimum stock of 12 different LED's to make sure they have at least ONE to sell.  [eek]

I'm thinking that local electrical codes would still mandate those LED's with integrated driver be installed in ceiling boxes because of the 120V connections. Seems like they could make a flush mount LED with an integrated driver/metal connection box that could just be installed through ceiling cutouts. No extraneous cords or connection boxes to deal with, that's basically what you had with older can lights.

 

[Cheese]

[member=3192]rvieceli[/member] [member=44099]Cheese[/member] you might be able to answer an LED light question for me. When we built, I used Leviton Vizia VP106 dimmers, which are rated for incandescent lights only. We have 5" cans with 65w flood light bulbs (& lots of them...).

I've swapped out a couple rooms to LED's and was forced to change the switches also, no surprise. I think this is due to the LED drawing so little voltage that the electronics in the switch doesn't recognize that lights are connected and it never fires up.

My question is whether any of the newer LEDs get around this issue? I'd like to swap out more lights as time passes but needing to replace the switches also is a PITA & additional cost.

Thanks.

RMW

I can't think of a quick combo that jumps to the forefront.  [blink]  Maybe within the next couple of years? Things keep getting better and there appears to be more symbioses between products.  I've noticed that in the past the LED manufacturer would say something like "to dim the LED use a suitable dimmer". Now more and more of them are producing a recommended list of dimmer manufacturers and dimmer part numbers to use.

I kind of went all in with Insteon smart switches, dimmers & outlets so I'm kind of stuck with those results.  [sad] 

 

[live4ever]

[member=44099]Cheese[/member] those lights are nice but still kind of old school down lights.

Might want to take a look at these flush mount led panels. Flush mount to a standard box fully lit panel, different color trim rings if desired. Selectable color temp on the unit and decent CRI.

They come in a few sizes 5 inch diameter, 7 inch, 14 inch.
https://www.superbrightleds.com/catalog/product/view/id/226418/s/lprcct-sw5a-10w5-x/category/3941/+housingcolor-White

Ron

I prefer the looks of a true flush mount LED Ron...but the selectable CCT and the integrated driver is pretty slick. I don't know why it's taken so long for manufacturers to include the selectable CCT?  Offering the exact same light in 3 different trim colors and 4 different light temperatures means they have to maintain a minimum stock of 12 different LED's to make sure they have at least ONE to sell.  [eek]

I'm thinking that local electrical codes would still mandate those LED's with integrated driver be installed in ceiling boxes because of the 120V connections. Seems like they could make a flush mount LED with an integrated driver/metal connection box that could just be installed through ceiling cutouts. No extraneous cords or connection boxes to deal with, that's basically what you had with older can lights.

They do…I’ve been using these Halo HLB series lights exclusively on remodels for a few years now.  Approx $20/unit in multipacks.  Can mount the driver boxes to the framing, or can get frames and mount the box to the frame.  Frames help making the drywall cutouts, though personally I locate the lights on the floor with a laser and then do the cutouts with a hole saw. 

Inspectors in my area want the boxes mounted to the framing or to the frames. 

Halo has another line of the same lights that are CCT and lumen selectable.  I used 7” versions of those when replacing porch recessed lighting.  It was so much easier to match the rest of the exterior lighting temp-wise and also not end up with something too bright. 

 

[Packard]

I have always been curious about why puck lights are so popular in the US when down lights straight into the ceiling are way cheaper and appear to do the same job. Sorry for the off topic question but my curiosity has gotten the better of me.

That's because until 2-3 years ago the large commercial US manufacturers, think Halo, Juno, Feit or Commercial, were not offering simple all-in-one LED solutions. Their solution was a traditional can recessed light but with a tethered LED, they called them retrofit kits. So you still had the installation issues and the height issues associated with cans.

Here's a Halo retrofit kit used with a traditional can versus a newer Juno all-in-one light. The newer Juno is also capable of varying the color temperature with a slide switch.

[attachimg=1]

[attachimg=2]

About 10 years ago I wanted to install exterior soffit lighting in the house. Traditional recessed cans would not fit because of the restricted height/space and my ONLY solution was to install puck lights.  [sad]  Hopefully, I will find the time this year to replace them with the small/thin all-in-one style Juno/Halo LED's that I'm installing in the garage soffit.

I used the Halo units, but it was not the best choice.  The Halo piece is molded out of resin and the profile is solid resin.

In my case, the new bezel rests atop the old chrome bezel leaving a gap of about 3/16”. 

If I want a tidier installation, I will have to grind off the old bezel with a right angle grinder working overhead.  Not fun.

There are versions that are made from stamped metals.  The old bezel should fit under the metal bezel as it is not a solid profile.

I will post an image later.

 

[rvieceli]

[member=13462]live4ever[/member] those Haloes are pretty slick as well. Although I like the drivers integrated into the panel rather than a separate box. The ones I linked to have a mount frame that can attach to a normal octagonal box.

For those following along  [big grin] here's a link to the Halo offerings

https://www.homedepot.com/p/HALO-HL...cessed-Light-Kit-HLBSL6099FS351EMWR/311575585

Ron

 

[rvieceli]

Richard no clue on the dimmer situation. As an old guy I'm usually needing more light not less.  [eek]

Ron

 

[live4ever]

[member=3192]rvieceli[/member] [member=44099]Cheese[/member] you might be able to answer an LED light question for me. When we built, I used Leviton Vizia VP106 dimmers, which are rated for incandescent lights only. We have 5" cans with 65w flood light bulbs (& lots of them...).

I've swapped out a couple rooms to LED's and was forced to change the switches also, no surprise. I think this is due to the LED drawing so little voltage that the electronics in the switch doesn't recognize that lights are connected and it never fires up.

My question is whether any of the newer LEDs get around this issue? I'd like to swap out more lights as time passes but needing to replace the switches also is a PITA & additional cost.

Thanks.

RMW

Richard, the way LEDs are dimmed is completely different.  With incandescents, less bright just means you send less power to the light.  With LEDs, if you send less power, they won’t light at all.  So the LED dimmers use pulse-width modulation - basically the power to the LED is going on and off really really fast.  Adjustment to the dimmer means changing how long the pulses are.  If this is not done ideally (newer incandescent dimmers are PWM but still not ideal), the LEDs will flicker.  So sadly, you’ll need to replace those switches, even with the newest LEDs.

 

[rmwarren]

Thanks [member=13462]live4ever[/member] I, that makes total sense.

[member=3192]rvieceli[/member] one of the conversions I did used those HALO lights or a lookalike. I had access to the attic above to run romex (the gym, only room in the house that didn't get at least 6 cans during construction) and just cutting out the drywall worked pretty slick. The attic has spray foam on top of the drywall ceiling, all I had to do was cut the circle and then poke a hole up thru the foam to feed the LV cable to the box on top of the joist.

Used Wagos to connect, I wish all this stuff had been available when we did the original job.

They look a lot cleaner than the floodlights we have everywhere else too.

RMW

 

[Packard]

Richard no clue on the dimmer situation. As an old guy I'm usually needing more light not less.  [eek]

Ron

I run dimmers on my Halo replacement lights.  There is a selector for calibrating the dimmer.  It does not get so dim as to be a replacement for a night light, but it does allow for a very bright (offensively bright) maximum and an comfortable light for most purposes.  But I cannot get it to a warm glow—it is brighter than that.  Probably equal to a 25 or 30 watt bulb.

 

[squall_line]

At the risk of derailing this thread even further with LED lighting stuff, this video doesn't fully encapsulate my feelings on the topic, but it's pretty close:


My ideal would be to somehow move toward low voltage lighting circuits in the future and avoid a lot of the losses associated with ballasts/drivers/etc.  Probably not in my lifetime, though.

 

[Cheese]

At the risk of derailing this thread even further with LED lighting stuff, this video doesn't fully encapsulate my feelings on the topic, but it's pretty close:


My ideal would be to somehow move toward low voltage lighting circuits in the future and avoid a lot of the losses associated with ballasts/drivers/etc.  Probably not in my lifetime, though.

Hey [member=75217]squall_line[/member] you post some really interesting answers and I figured I'd view this video and gain some knowledge. Unfortunately, this is the drivel I expect from the "media content" folks or whatever they call themselves today. It's the reason I don't subscribe to you tube, tik tok, facebook, linkdin, or any of the other "information venues".

Why do all of these folks need 30 minutes to present only 2 minutes of valid information? If I droned on for 30 minutes adding nothing to the conversation, people would call for the producers of the show to "cut off my oxygen".

Maybe I'm just an old guy but I really can't see where folks like this have any value added...this isn't against you, it's just that these folks need to be called out as they really add nothing to the discussion.

Or maybe they just want to become an influencer...dear God...that's another discussion.

 

[Packard]

I have always been curious about why puck lights are so popular in the US when down lights straight into the ceiling are way cheaper and appear to do the same job. Sorry for the off topic question but my curiosity has gotten the better of me.

That's because until 2-3 years ago the large commercial US manufacturers, think Halo, Juno, Feit or Commercial, were not offering simple all-in-one LED solutions. Their solution was a traditional can recessed light but with a tethered LED, they called them retrofit kits. So you still had the installation issues and the height issues associated with cans.

Here's a Halo retrofit kit used with a traditional can versus a newer Juno all-in-one light. The newer Juno is also capable of varying the color temperature with a slide switch.

[attachimg=1]

[attachimg=2]

About 10 years ago I wanted to install exterior soffit lighting in the house. Traditional recessed cans would not fit because of the restricted height/space and my ONLY solution was to install puck lights.  [sad]  Hopefully, I will find the time this year to replace them with the small/thin all-in-one style Juno/Halo LED's that I'm installing in the garage soffit.

As promised here are photos of my Halo retrofit.  It is ready to be pressed into place.  Installation is a picture of simplicity.  And it works fine.  The problem is that the bezel of the Halo unit will stack on top of the bezel of the original installation.

And here it is installed, bezels stacked, pressed into final position.  To avoid that stacked bezel appearance, I would have to use a right angle grinder inside the cylinder and make a cut around the entire perimeter. This would have to be done overhead, so goggles and a cap would be needed, and it would likely take 5 plus minutes per light to do. 

Even from a distance it makes for an unfortunate look.  I know that there are stamped steel versions out there.  The stamping would probably completely cover the old bezel.

I’m disappointed in the look.  The function is fine.  At some point I will get the energy and initiative to fix this problem.

 

[Cheese]

As promised here are photos of my Halo retrofit.  It is ready to be pressed into place.  Installation is a picture of simplicity.  And it works fine.  The problem is that the bezel of the Halo unit will stack on top of the bezel of the original installation.

And here it is installed, bezels stacked, pressed into final position.  To avoid that stacked bezel appearance, I would have to use a right angle grinder inside the cylinder and make a cut around the entire perimeter. This would have to be done overhead, so goggles and a cap would be needed, and it would likely take 5 plus minutes per light to do. 

Even from a distance it makes for an unfortunate look.  I know that there are stamped steel versions out there.  The stamping would probably completely cover the old bezel.

I’m disappointed in the look.  The function is fine.  At some point I will get the energy and initiative to fix this problem.

Can you pull the original can down at all?  Even if you can only pull it down 1/2", you could slip a .040" cut-off wheel between the existing flange and the ceiling and use the flange as a cutting guide/rest. That would certainly ease the task and minimize the modification time.

Thinking about it further, those "flanges" must be removable or the can must be removable from the ceiling side, otherwise, how would they be installed originally?

 

[Packard]

As promised here are photos of my Halo retrofit.  It is ready to be pressed into place.  Installation is a picture of simplicity.  And it works fine.  The problem is that the bezel of the Halo unit will stack on top of the bezel of the original installation.

And here it is installed, bezels stacked, pressed into final position.  To avoid that stacked bezel appearance, I would have to use a right angle grinder inside the cylinder and make a cut around the entire perimeter. This would have to be done overhead, so goggles and a cap would be needed, and it would likely take 5 plus minutes per light to do. 

Even from a distance it makes for an unfortunate look.  I know that there are stamped steel versions out there.  The stamping would probably completely cover the old bezel.

I’m disappointed in the look.  The function is fine.  At some point I will get the energy and initiative to fix this problem.

Can you pull the original can down at all?  Even if you can only pull it down 1/2", you could slip a .040" cut-off wheel between the existing flange and the ceiling and use the flange as a cutting guide/rest. That would certainly ease the task and minimize the modification time.

Thinking about it further, those "flanges" must be removable or the can must be removable from the ceiling side, otherwise, how would they be installed originally?

I don’t recall what the obstacle was, but the old bezel cannot be removed from the can.  I will look again later. 

I can pull it down about 1” and working from the outside sounds easier.  But if I can find a stamped version that covers the old bezel, I would probably just replace these. 

I will take another look when I get home.  But if you are thinking of doing the same thing as I did, look at the old bezel.  The way I have it now, it looks sloppy and every time I walk in the room I see it. 

At any rate, before buying these look at the old bezel and how you will deal with it. If you are like me, you will be disappointed with the stacked bezel look.

 

[squall_line]

I'm honestly a bit surprised that they don't make a spacer ring that fits just inside the lip of the bezel on the insert to accommodate for this.  Those are the types of "accessories" that they love to make in different colors so that people can match or accent the look and hide the old can at the same time.

 

[Packard]

If they made the plastic bezel a little larger in diameter with a lip that covered the old bezel, it would be perfect.  I suspect that at some time in the future they will modify the mold (or add the aforementioned spacer) to resolve this issue. 

I think it is an issue.  It is for me.  Perhaps it does not bother most of their customers.