Retailer visit...

[marrt]

I'm considering a new jigsaw.  I know this tool has long been seen as lacking sufficient precision for "near finish" work.  And I agree.  However, I've seen good reviews of the Bosch 1590 and Festool Trion. 

I went to the local Woodcraft store about 8:00pm last night.  The salesman was very friendly and had worked at the store since it opened, about three years. 

Negatives: 

• He knew NOTHING about the product.  When I would ask a question, he would literally open the Festool product guide and read from the guide.
  He agreed with my assertion that the products were very (even too) expensive for hobbyists.  But, he offered nothing in their defense, such as the better safety features, quicker site clean up, systems integration etc...  He even recommended the Fein vacuum over the CT33 and wasn't aware of the advantages of variable speed when sanding (whether variable speed is an issue or not...it's a good "story" for a Festool salesman).
• No mention of Festool's excellent warranty.
• No mention of the 30 day trial to "push me over the top."

Positives:

• No pressure to make a purchase.
• Salesman offered twice to allow me to try the tools in the store.  This was nice.

Observations about the products:
I can definitely see that the Trion "looks" like a better product than the Bosch.  The arms that protect the blade from deflection appear to be more robust and extend lower (closer to the wood) than the Bosch.  I was able to deflect the Bosch arms with my finger without much resistance.  Also, I didn't like the mechanism to adjust the foot angle on the Bosch. There seemed to be no indent to come back to zero.  Not sure about the Festool.

I wasn't looking to review the tools and I was in a hurry, so I just have the observations above.  I was actually intending to purchase the Bosch, but wanted to see the Festool first to get a comparison to the best.  Given that people here have both tools and have commented on their use, I didn't really care to try the Festool and I wasn't dressed for it away.  If money were no object, I would have bought the Festool for sure.  However, I was also originally intending to buy the Bosch and did not after looking at it.  I may try to find a used Trion first.  If not, then I will probably get the Bosch, given the price differences. 

 

 

[mwhafner]

I have both and like them both.  There are a couple of recent threads where this was discussed.

I know some people who also really like the Makita.

I think the Festool has two advantages - the dust collection is a little better, and it handles thick stock (6/4 or greater) better.  It has less of a tendency towards blade deflection.

If you are using the saw above the material, the dust shroud on the Trion makes visibility very difficult.  Statically charged dust tend to "fog" the shroud.  I use the barrel grip model, and cut from underneath the material most of the time, so it is not a significant issue for me.  When I do have to cut from above, I use a fabric softener sheet to wipe the shroud.  That temporarily eliminates the static electricity. 

 

[JJ Wavra]

Martt-

I have to say that I work at woodcraft part time.  While you think that festool may be an area where the salesman should know something, just take into consideration that he may have been a turner or carver and that is why they hired him.  I personally know almost nothing about turning or even table saws.  The woodcraft store that I work at tries to hire people that have different areas of knowledge.  With literally hundreds of products in the store it is impossible to know everything.  That is why a site like this is so important or maybe to the detriment of retailors(the knowledge base here is tremendous and takes time to keep up with).  There is not enough time in the day to keep up with everything on this site and then every other site that pertains to products in the store.

Also, take into account most of the people that I work with are part time and either have careers outside of woodworking (do it as a hobby) or woodwork for a living rarely with someone who woodworks in all areas( trim carpentry, cabinet making turning, furniture making, carving to name a few and there is the sub catagories in each of those).  So while it would be ideal to have a broad knowledge base on every product in the store it is not really reasonable to be an expert on everything.  

That is why a site like this is so great.  you can search the data base and get answers quick or ask a question.  

One last note is to ask the sales rep. next time if there is a time when you can come in and talk to someone that knows more about festool.  I was hired because of my use and interest in festool and often times fellow imployees will have me answer questions for people they are working with.

JJ

 

[nickao]

I have both jigs and the Bosch is better.

The  Feins do have variable suction so that is not an issue between the vacs.

The 30 day trial is not near as good as the the Porter Cable, DeWalt and others have a 90 day no questions asked return policy. Why would he say anything about it when other tools he sells have a better plan clearly written on their packaging.

It sounds like a typical trip to Woodcraft to me.

 

[robtonya]

I've used a Makita at work a few weeks ago. I must sy it cut really good with hardly any vibration. I also own a Festool. It too has little vibration, and cuts good too. I would say if I was strapped for cash, I'd take a good look at the Bosch and Makita.

 

[Brice Burrell]

........The  Feins do have variable suction so that is not an issue between the vacs..................

Sorry, I don't mean to get too far off track here, Nick tell me about the variable suction Fein vacs, I didn't know any of them had this feature.

 

[JJ Wavra]

........The  Feins do have variable suction so that is not an issue between the vacs..................

Sorry, I don't mean to get too far off track here, Nick tell me about the variable suction Fein vacs, I didn't know any of them had this feature.

I'm not nick but the new model fein vacs have that feature.  They are just starting to appear in stores, I saw a couple at a wood show myabe a month or two ago.

JJ

 

[marrt]

While you think that festool may be an area where the salesman should know something, just take into consideration that he may have been a turner or carver...

I hear you.  But THREE YEARS he's worked at the store.  You'd think he would have picked up something just from boredom and natural curiosity.  Anyway, he said he was a carpenter before working there.

The  Feins do have variable suction so that is not an issue between the vacs.

I was not aware of this.  They only have 3 models, right?  HEPA is not standard I take it.  I will investigate.

The 30 day trial is not near as good as the the Porter Cable, DeWalt and others have a 90 day no questions asked return policy.

True, but this wasn't my main reason for mentioning the trial.  When someone is considering a product, then, as a sales guy, you have to remove any remaining hesitation to close the sale.  Just about every tool has a 30 day policy anyway if you buy at a big box...that's pretty much their return policy. 

However, he could have said:  "Look, I know that Festool is expensive.  However, if you will use it a few times, you will see that its much better than the competition.  That's what everyone says about Festool...try it and you'll like it.  So, I'd suggest you just buy it, take it home and use it for 30 days then bring it back if you don't agree.  Not much risk in that and then you'll know if Festool is as good as they say."

Anyway...
My number one issue is blade deflection.  I have a PC that's nice...but only if you are cutting in a straight line...which pretty much defeats the point of a jigsaw.  A lot of people give props to the Trion on blade deflection.  I have a band saw for most curve work.  However, a good jigsaw would definitely be handy.

 

[nickao]

Yes Hepa is now standard on the Feins and they have variable. They now have 6 wheels and are only 57.8 db to 63 db which is much quieter than the sanders themselves and the most quiet vac on the market.

McFeelys has them and they are about the same price with the Hepa as the CT's, you have an option with no Hepa which make them cheaper. At least you have a choice, on the Ct's I am not sure if you even have a choice, many do not need Hepa.

In my shop some tools do release dust so to me the Hepa may be a little overkill. If you get your slider putting out 10% of dust what is the benefit to Hepa? Again the price is comparable with the Hepa option on the Fein.

Fein with or without Hepa

http://www.mcfeelys.com/search/fein+vac

Fein with No Hepa and explains the variable speed suction clearly:

http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/show_product.do?pid=51672&familyName=Fein+Turbo+II+Variable+Speed+Vacuum

I am surprised you have not seen them Brice McFeelys sent me a brochure more than a month ago.

It's a good time to get the older Feins for a steal I have been seeing some go for as low as 200.00 for the Turbo II now and again, which is a great price if you need another vac or just a back up.

Like I have said before I believe the initial suction on the CT's is a little more than the Fein. The Fein's seems to keep a more effective and powerful suction for a noticeably longer period of time. I do like the newer Fein better than the older Fein and they are about the same as the CT so I would purchase the Festool CT if you want to keep in the Festool system. If you do not care the Fein is a great choice too.

 

[Notorious T.O.D.]

I hear you.  But THREE YEARS he's worked at the store.  You'd think he would have picked up something just from boredom and natural curiosity.  Anyway, he said he was a carpenter before working there.

I think you have answered your own question....he is a carpenter, not a salesman.  I don't think these guys really get any training in selling so they either can sell coming in the door or they can't.  Perhaps he was not a good carpenter so he decided to try to sell tools instead....who knows...

Best,
Todd

 

[mastercabman]

I have worked with the Bosch for a long time,and I've been working with the trion for about 3 years.
Both are good saws.
I do miss the dust blower on the trion,clears the dust in front of the cutting line.
On the other,i have to say that the trion cuts straighter.I had some issues with the Bosch about cutting straight.
I also like the smaller size of the trion,but still powerfull enough to do the work.

 

[nickao]

Yep, especially in wood like 4 inches thick the Festool cuts straighter(more square to the wood face), with 1" or 2" wood I never really noticed any difference.

While using the Trion it is just really tough to see the cut line.

 

[EJB]

I have the Trion in the barrel config.  It is a nice tool.  I also have an AEG jigsaw (BSPE 100X) that I bought in the '94.  It was the first jig saw I noted that had modern features(ie: tool less blade change, vac support, provisions for splitter and blade support)....BTW Milwaukee has/had an exact version(same company owner..w/o the blase support..current version #6268 look similar to mine).  I was alerted to this by a Popular Mechanics Comparison article  that year...think I paid 149 buck for mine via the ACE hardware with the big purple catalog.  My version has the handle grip.  Very nice saw...I think it is better than the Trion.  Very smooth.  Perhaps the new AEG's are just as good... don't know if they are available in the US any longer..just the Milwaukee brand.

The biggest improvement to me is using the new Bosch blades..T308..woa!! they work well.  I was using the T234 progressor blades..an thought they were great..the 308 blows them away in terms of a smooth finish..really nice.  Any one else use these?

Ed

 

[nickao]

Ed I wish I could try that saw becasue it is hard to believe a saw made in 1994 is better than the advanced Trion and Bosch.

Because I am unfamiliar with the saw I will give you the benefit of the doubt, but I have used a lot of Jig saws and the two I mentioned are by far the best I have ever tried.

 

[EJB]

Ed I wish I could try that saw becasue it is hard to believe a saw made in 1994 is better than the advanced Trion and Bosch.

Because I am unfamiliar with the saw I will give you the benefit of the doubt, but I have used a lot of Jig saws and the two I mentioned are by far the best I have ever tried.

To ALL on this FORUM:  NEVER  I repeat..NEVER... DOUBT me..  ......  **

Me Too  I was surprised as well!  I never used the tools side by side until last summer when I got into doing trim work in my basement..  I bought the Festool because I wanted a smaller tool with the barrel config..  Only have used the Trion for the past few years...got it right when it came out..When Festool had intro pricing and the 10% off your first Festool order...The good old days..    Back when I felt I was getting incredible tools and a bargain...  heh..  Still get incredible tools..just less of a bargain....

** As a Longtime reader/Lurker...and Newbie Poster .....Does this get me into the "Per" humor club?.............

Seriously..folks. I enjoy this forum and have gained a lot of knowledge and useful opinions...

Ed

 

[nickao]

Well the new AEG look pretty nice I have never used or even heard of one, at least I do not remeber ever seeing one anywhere:

AEG saws

I do not see that you can get them in the US.

 

[Notorious T.O.D.]

I think the AEG tools were sold here around the same timeframe as the Elu routers.  I have the fixed base and larger plunge Elu routers and they are still among my favorites.  The plunge has varaible speed and soft start and a nice collet that will securely hold any bit...

Best,
Todd

 

[nickao]

Looks like they sell them almost everywhere in the world except here. Heck they sell them in Afghanistan and not here.

 

[EJB]

The Step 1200 looks almost exactly like mine.  Mine has a Black plastic body and the tool change lever is black vs. red.  It also doesn't appear to have the blade stabilizers ...I downloaded the manual out of interest...  Can't tell if the Milwaukee has them either.

Elu!  That was my first router...the 3338....it turned into the Dewalt 625.  I really like the Festool 1400 and 1000 that I have because they are little lighter...but the Elu is awesome.  I have had it rebuilt with a new armature recently..been in good use since 91!  One other think  most people probably don't know...it had a great vacuum attachment...and shroud.  I will take photos and post them....  it works great..and I just bought replacement parts from Dewalt...For the life of me..I do not understand why they wouldn't market this kit.  Back when I didn't have shop space it allowed me to rout things in the house without making a huge mess....

Ed

 

[EJB]

By the way...My Elu was made in Switzerland...From what I understand from my engineering Buddies in Europe..if you make crap in Switzerland..you go to jail..some national rule...    Maybe someone can verify this for me..you know a second opinion.

First photo shows the shroud..Held in with Thumb screws.  There is a simple snap in bracket that mounts to the top of the router to help support the vac hose and keep it managed..

Works great with my CT33.  It's very nice that parts are availbe since there is a model out there now that is alost identical..but probably not made in Switzerland!!