Squaring up the MFT rig, and a good square

[sancho57]

Pinnacle isn't sold anymore.

get the square cheaper here

http://www.woodcraft.com/product/2084579/37664/woodpeckers-precision-woodworking-square-12in-x-8in.aspx

they also sell the same square under the brand name pinnacle

well that certainly sucks

 

[peter halle]

I have set my MFT/3 fence parallel to the holes using Qwas dogs.

Do you still use the angle stop and clamp to attach the fence once it is squared with the Qwas dogs? And do you square directly to the dogs, or do you use some sort of spacer between the dogs and the fence?

I still use all the Festool parts.  I place the dogs in the rear most row of holes and once the fence is touching both of those I put the angle stop on the side profile and clamp.  Honestly I very often just leave the dogs in place behind the fence.

Just by moving the rail to the left and adjusting the feather keys to a new location by a small amount I can always drop the front rail so that the rail just touches the table and throw in a dog to double check.  If the rail kisses the side then I am as square as the cnc top will let me get.  Pull the dog out and adjust the height and it's good.  I'll gladly give up a tiny bit of table space to the left of the rail for this ease of setting up.

I hope that this makes sense.

Peter

Peter

 

[GarryMartin]

I hope that this makes sense.

It does. Perfectly.

Thanks Peter.

 

[rrmccabe]

How reliable is the squareness of the appropriately oriented rows of holes in the MFT to the extrusions ? Is variability likely too much to be able to use Qwas dogs for this purpose?

If I understand your question I would say NOT very accurate.  The top might be perfect holes with them perfect to the edge of the top. But depending on how the top is dropped into the table and attached with 4 screws will determine the rest.  I just replaced the top on my 1080 and there was slop where the top drops in.  I just pushed it one direction and screwed it down.

So point is, the holes are only going to be as parallel to the extrusions as the installer sets it. 

I square my fence to the holes in the table and then the guide.    I really dont use the rails for anything where it requires square.

 

[NuggyBuggy]

How reliable is the squareness of the appropriately oriented rows of holes in the MFT to the extrusions ? Is variability likely too much to be able to use Qwas dogs for this purpose?

If I understand your question I would say NOT very accurate.  The top might be perfect holes with them perfect to the edge of the top. But depending on how the top is dropped into the table and attached with 4 screws will determine the rest.  I just replaced the top on my 1080 and there was slop where the top drops in.  I just pushed it one direction and screwed it down.

So point is, the holes are only going to be as parallel to the extrusions as the installer sets it.   

rrmcabe - that's what I was asking about.  I know the MDF top itself is very accurate, but was wondering about accuracy and variability in construction/installation of the frame that the top usually sits in.  It seems to me that the thickness of the extrusions should be pretty constant across its length, so the real question (for me, anyways) is how much variance in play between side extrusions and MDF exists, and whether that mitigates against using MDF-hole-mounted dogs to square extrusion mounted rails.. You did note that you see significant slop before screwing the top down, which I'd expect - otherwise it'd be nigh impossible to get the top in, in the first place.  But was the slop constant along one side ?

It sounds like Peter Halle is doing what I am wondering about...

 

[NuggyBuggy]

How reliable is the squareness of the appropriately oriented rows of holes in the MFT to the extrusions ? Is variability likely too much to be able to use Qwas dogs for this purpose?

After the test by the staff at Lee Valley   the rows of holes in the MFT are precise and you can use them with Qwas dogs with high degree of accuracy.
Tim

I have to confess I have not read the paper carefully - even though I DID buy the table top they sacrificed - but I sort of understood that they likely were testing usage against the table TOP, and not the conjunction of the top's dogholes with the separate, side extrusions.

 

[GarryMartin]

I'm not sure I understand why you think the aluminium profile to MDF top alignment matters. Could you explain?

If the fence is square to the holes, and the rail is square to the holes, then it doesn't matter whether the top is square to the profile does it? You're not registering any component off the profiles, only off the MFT top...  [unsure]

 

[peter halle]

The intermixing of using the holes for some things and the extrusions for others was part of the issue that people had with the previous models.

With the MFT/3, as designed, the holes were only for clamping and all squaring was done with the extrusions.

With what I do all the squaring is done with the holes.  The extrusions just clamp or hold things parallel to the holes, they don't determine WHERE they are positioned.

In other words, Garry and I are thinking alike.

Peter

 

[rrmccabe]

The whole precision dog thing needs to get everyone the rethink the process. I use my table 100x more after watching Paul Marcel's video.

 

[NuggyBuggy]

I'm not sure I understand why you think the aluminium profile to MDF top alignment matters. Could you explain?

If the fence is square to the holes, and the rail is square to the holes, then it doesn't matter whether the top is square to the profile does it? You're not registering any component off the profiles, only off the MFT top...  [unsure]

I'm thinking of the fence and pivoting cross-cut rail-holding thing that comes with the MFT/3 set. Depending on how you use that thing and the fence, there's the assumption of perpendicularity and/or parallelism - not to the holes in this case, but to the extrusions.  I find setting/adjusting the cross-cut thing so as to cut square to be tedious, especially if I want to move it to a different spot along the profile.  If there was a way to use the precision located holes on the MFT to do this quickly, it'd be far less tedious.

So that's why I'm wondering whether the extrusions could be counted on to be parallel (or perpendicular to) the rows of holes in the MFT.

Truth is, since I got some Qwas dogs I never use the fence nor the cross-cut thing.

 

[skids]

I'm not sure I understand why you think the aluminium profile to MDF top alignment matters. Could you explain?

If the fence is square to the holes, and the rail is square to the holes, then it doesn't matter whether the top is square to the profile does it? You're not registering any component off the profiles, only off the MFT top...  [unsure]

I was thinking the same exact thing..I am confused.

The angle unit fixes to the frame, the angle unit is adjustable and adjusts the fences' squareness, again it is adjustable. Case closed.

 

[rrmccabe]

I only make 90 degree cuts and 45 degree cuts.

Only use dogs ! No fence

I need to order more dogs too

 

[skids]

I have a set of 4 Quas Dogs and I can't say enough good things about them. So many uses and superb fit.

I was gluing (2p10) outside corners on some crown and setting up a quick 90 corner jig took seconds using the fence and Quasdogs..Possiblities are endless when you pair them with this table.

 

[Qwas]

Do you still use the angle stop and clamp to attach the fence once it is squared with the Qwas dogs? And do you square directly to the dogs, or do you use some sort of spacer between the dogs and the fence?

I know your question is about a spacer with the fence but I would like to remind customers that I recommend a spacer between the dogs and the guide rail when aligning. Without a spacer, the cutting edge of the guide rail sits over a column of holes. If you add a spacer that is anything from 1/2" to 3" it will move the guide rail past the column of holes. The most common spacer is simply a scrap piece of wood about 1" wide and 20-24" long. For the best accuracy,  just be sure it's width is consistent. For those that like having the fence under the rail, the spacer can be tall enough to reach the guide rail with the fence under it.

The intermixing of using the holes for some things and the extrusions for others was part of the issue that people had with the previous models.

With the MFT/3, as designed, the holes were only for clamping and all squaring was done with the extrusions.

With what I do all the squaring is done with the holes.  The extrusions just clamp or hold things parallel to the holes, they don't determine WHERE they are positioned.

In other words, Garry and I are thinking alike.

Peter

That's kind of funny. 5 short years ago, everyone was saying the holes were clamping and the profiles were for squaring.  [big grin]

 

[rrmccabe]

That's kind of funny. 5 short years ago, everyone was saying the holes were clamping and the profiles were for squaring.   [big grin]

LOL

 

[Kodi Crescent]

I had trouble squaring my MFT rail with the perpendicular rail at the back when the cutting rail overlaid the other rail.  The Woodpecker's Clamping Squares are thick enough to allow me to square the rails while in the cutting position.

http://www.woodpeck.com/clampingsquare6.html

 

[skids]

The intermixing of using the holes for some things and the extrusions for others was part of the issue that people had with the previous models.

With the MFT/3, as designed, the holes were only for clamping and all squaring was done with the extrusions.

With what I do all the squaring is done with the holes. The extrusions just clamp or hold things parallel to the holes, they don't determine WHERE they are positioned.

In other words, Garry and I are thinking alike.

Peter

Peter is this what you are describing you do to square it up?

 

[peter halle]

Yes, except you really only need 2 dogs.  I will dash to the shop and pick up stuff to bring home and do a video (mainly because others have asked me to) that shows my approach. I am sure I am not the only one (nor the original one) who thought or posted this.

Peter

 

[sancho57]

Tick Tock,Peter we are waiting  [big grin]

 

[peter halle]

Tick Tock,Peter we are waiting   [big grin]

You are on CA time.  You get to wait longer [poke].

Peter