TSO Anodizing is very inconsistent, why?

[Crazyraceguy]

Let me add on to where Coen just ended, whether it's anodization or paint, accurately matching different batches of colored products is nigh on to impossible. Simply read the label on SW paint where hey exhort you to

This is why Pros use a technique called "boxing". Simply put, this is the mixing of multiple smaller containers into a larger one, thus blending away any variation. Then it can be returned to the smaller containers, for use as needed.

We often do this with stain too.

 

[Packard]

Specifically in the medical field where different color screws refer to different lengths. That way during surgery, instead of asking for a particular length the physician simply asks for a particular color. Easier and fewer mistakes are made.

Interesting.

In the early 1970s I was an independent manufacturers’ representative. One of my principals was a machine shop. At that time, I subscribed to a U.S. government publication called “Commerce Business Daily” [CBD] and it arrived my US Mail 5 days a week. It listed various government contracts being offered. One seemed to suit the capabilities of the machine shop I represented, so I requested a bidding package.

My principal bid the job and we were the low bidder. It called for machining 10 supplied castings, including milling and line boring. It seemed simple enough. And the contractor sent out a survey company to confirm that we were capable of doing the work. It was bid at $200.00 each for 10 pieces. What my principal did not notice was that he was responsible for any castings he damaged, which were made from titanium.

Luckily none were damaged. Each one was valued at $700.00. I referred to the material as “unobtainium”, which was my word-coinage at that time. The job went well, a the titanium caused no issues in the machine shop. However, when my principal learned the risk he had taken, it soured him on future government work.

CBD no longer exists. It has been replaced by an on-line version, which was always available for free. I am not sure what the Trump admin has done in that regard.

 

[luvmytoolz]

Let me add on to where Coen just ended, whether it's anodization or paint, accurately matching different batches of colored products is nigh on to impossible. Simply read the label on SW paint where hey exhort you to

Titanium can be anodized.

So long as it's not red! ;-)

 

[MMCO]

Interestingly enough, here's a photo directly from the TSO website.

My primary issue is with the two Parallel guides scales not matching or even being close. As mentioned in my initial post, it isn't as obvious in the picture due to lighting.

 

[Packard]

My primary issue is with the two Parallel guides scales not matching or even being close. As mentioned in my initial post, it isn't as obvious in the picture due to lighting.

I thought you were comparing the two different scales for color. If you are comparing the scales to the squaring plates, it is possible that the alloys are different, and the process for forming is different, and those differences will yield different colors.

The scales are extrusions.

The rail squares have machine marks over much of the surface. It is not clear to me if it was machined from billet, or started life as an extrusion. It would require an extremely large extrusion line to make that profile, and it would still need to be machined on a CNC machine. My guess is that it is made from billet, and quite possibly from a different alloy for improved machine ability and hardness.

Aluminum alloy 6061 is “plain vanilla” aluminum, and enjoys high availability and relatively low cost. It machines well, but is not particularly hard or tough. TSO might have selected a different alloy to improve the performance of the part or to facilitate manufacture.

Below is a link that lists several alloys of aluminum along with their properties. TSO almost certainly selects the alloy according to the physical properties required for the part and its ability to be machined and/or formed. Color matching is probably further down the list for consideration.

I agree that there is a huge color difference between the squaring arm and the scales. I have that same system, and the color matching o lack thereof, does not seem to affect functionality.

Do note that the colors will fade when exposed to UV rays. Of note is that blue and red dyes tend to fade the most; gold is nearly fade-proof, and black offers excellent UV resistance.

More on that here: https://www.anoplate.com/news-and-events/why-does-anodize-fade/

Excerpt here:

Anodized aluminum is for the most part a robust, quality finish that is readily obtained through any number of chemical processing houses, however, a persistent issue that arises is fading of colored anodize. The fact is that there are a number of causes for this, not always related to the processing houses cutting corners, so we thought we‘d review some of them.

[…] To begin with, anodic coatings are porous by nature and freshly anodized surfaces act as great receptors for dyestuffs, typically organic compounds available in a myriad of colors. The organic dyes used to impart color to freshly formed anodic coatings are the same as those used to dye textiles.[…]

 

[TSO_Products]

I thought you were comparing the two different scales for color. If you are comparing the scales to the squaring plates, it is possible that the alloys are different, and the process for forming is different, and those differences will yield different colors.

The scales are extrusions.

The rail squares have machine marks over much of the surface. It is not clear to me if it was machined from billet, or started life as an extrusion. It would require an extremely large extrusion line to make that profile, and it would still need to be machined on a CNC machine. My guess is that it is made from billet, and quite possibly from a different alloy for improved machine ability and hardness.

Aluminum alloy 6061 is “plain vanilla” aluminum, and enjoys high availability and relatively low cost. It machines well, but is not particularly hard or tough. TSO might have selected a different alloy to improve the performance of the part or to facilitate manufacture.

Below is a link that lists several alloys of aluminum along with their properties. TSO almost certainly selects the alloy according to the physical properties required for the part and its ability to be machined and/or formed. Color matching is probably further down the list for consideration.

I agree that there is a huge color difference between the squaring arm and the scales. I have that same system, and the color matching o lack thereof, does not seem to affect functionality.

Do note that the colors will fade when exposed to UV rays. Of note is that blue and red dyes tend to fade the most; gold is nearly fade-proof, and black offers excellent UV resistance.

More on that here: https://www.anoplate.com/news-and-events/why-does-anodize-fade/

Excerpt here:

Anodized aluminum is for the most part a robust, quality finish that is readily obtained through any number of chemical processing houses, however, a persistent issue that arises is fading of colored anodize. The fact is that there are a number of causes for this, not always related to the processing houses cutting corners, so we thought we‘d review some of them.

[…] To begin with, anodic coatings are porous by nature and freshly anodized surfaces act as great receptors for dyestuffs, typically organic compounds available in a myriad of colors. The organic dyes used to impart color to freshly formed anodic coatings are the same as those used to dye textiles.[…]

My primary issue is with the two Parallel guides scales not matching or even being close. As mentioned in my initial post, it isn't as obvious in the picture due to lighting.

I thought you were comparing the two different scales for color. If you are comparing the scales to the squaring plates, it is possible that the alloys are different, and the process for forming is different, and those differences will yield different colors.

The scales are extrusions.

The rail squares have machine marks over much of the surface. It is not clear to me if it was machined from billet, or started life as an extrusion. It would require an extremely large extrusion line to make that profile, and it would still need to be machined on a CNC machine. My guess is that it is made from billet, and quite possibly from a different alloy for improved machine ability and hardness.

Aluminum alloy 6061 is “plain vanilla” aluminum, and enjoys high availability and relatively low cost. It machines well, but is not particularly hard or tough. TSO might have selected a different alloy to improve the performance of the part or to facilitate manufacture.

Below is a link that lists several alloys of aluminum along with their properties. TSO almost certainly selects the alloy according to the physical properties required for the part and its ability to be machined and/or formed. Color matching is probably further down the list for consideration.

I agree that there is a huge color difference between the squaring arm and the scales. I have that same system, and the color matching o lack thereof, does not seem to affect functionality.

Do note that the colors will fade when exposed to UV rays. Of note is that blue and red dyes tend to fade the most; gold is nearly fade-proof, and black offers excellent UV resistance.

More on that here: https://www.anoplate.com/news-and-events/why-does-anodize-fade/

Excerpt here:

Anodized aluminum is for the most part a robust, quality finish that is readily obtained through any number of chemical processing houses, however, a persistent issue that arises is fading of colored anodize. The fact is that there are a number of causes for this, not always related to the processing houses cutting corners, so we thought we‘d review some of them.

[…] To begin with, anodic coatings are porous by nature and freshly anodized surfaces act as great receptors for dyestuffs, typically organic compounds available in a myriad of colors. The organic dyes used to impart color to freshly formed anodic coatings are the same as those used to dye textiles.[…]

I thought you were comparing the two different scales for color. If you are comparing the scales to the squaring plates, it is possible that the alloys are different, and the process for forming is different, and those differences will yield different colors.

The scales are extrusions.

The rail squares have machine marks over much of the surface. It is not clear to me if it was machined from billet, or started life as an extrusion. It would require an extremely large extrusion line to make that profile, and it would still need to be machined on a CNC machine. My guess is that it is made from billet, and quite possibly from a different alloy for improved machine ability and hardness.

Aluminum alloy 6061 is “plain vanilla” aluminum, and enjoys high availability and relatively low cost. It machines well, but is not particularly hard or tough. TSO might have selected a different alloy to improve the performance of the part or to facilitate manufacture.

Below is a link that lists several alloys of aluminum along with their properties. TSO almost certainly selects the alloy according to the physical properties required for the part and its ability to be machined and/or formed. Color matching is probably further down the list for consideration.

I agree that there is a huge color difference between the squaring arm and the scales. I have that same system, and the color matching o lack thereof, does not seem to affect functionality.

Do note that the colors will fade when exposed to UV rays. Of note is that blue and red dyes tend to fade the most; gold is nearly fade-proof, and black offers excellent UV resistance.

More on that here: https://www.anoplate.com/news-and-events/why-does-anodize-fade/

Excerpt here:

Anodized aluminum is for the most part a robust, quality finish that is readily obtained through any number of chemical processing houses, however, a persistent issue that arises is fading of colored anodize. The fact is that there are a number of causes for this, not always related to the processing houses cutting corners, so we thought we‘d review some of them.

[…] To begin with, anodic coatings are porous by nature and freshly anodized surfaces act as great receptors for dyestuffs, typically organic compounds available in a myriad of colors. The organic dyes used to impart color to freshly formed anodic coatings are the same as those used to dye textiles.[…]

My primary issue is with the two Parallel guides scales not matching or even being close. As mentioned in my initial post, it isn't as obvious in the picture due to lighting.

@MMCO - we understand your feeling of disappointment regarding the color shade variation between individual blue anodized parts. Similar customer comments have appeared in years past. The reasons behind the issue, once understood, have become widely accepted.

TSO says:
aluminum products we provide with an anodized finish are intended to provide the following:
- Protect the tool against corrosion in normal use.
- Protect the workpiece against discoloration from unprotected raw aluminum when that constitutes a risk.
- Provide a contrasting background which can be laser engraved to reveal the lighter natural aluminum background.
- Color density matching from part-to-part adds no value to the intended function of the tool nor does it reduce functionality.

We agree it would be nicer to have matched colors if available anodizing finishers could provide it.

thank you for understanding.
Hans at TSO

 

[WillettBarrel]

@MMCO - we understand your feeling of disappointment regarding the color shade variation between individual blue anodized parts. Similar customer comments have appeared in years past. The reasons behind the issue, once understood, have become widely accepted.

TSO says:
aluminum products we provide with an anodized finish are intended to provide the following:
- Protect the tool against corrosion in normal use.
- Protect the workpiece against discoloration from unprotected raw aluminum when that constitutes a risk.
- Provide a contrasting background which can be laser engraved to reveal the lighter natural aluminum background.
- Color density matching from part-to-part adds no value to the intended function of the tool nor does it reduce functionality.

We agree it would be nicer to have matched colors if available anodizing finishers could provide it.

thank you for understanding.
Hans at TSO

Hans @TSO_Products,

I think the feedback your customers just gave you, is that many of them feel they're paying a premium for both form and function.

You've very well articulated the functional intent of your product. You also explicitly acknowledged room for improvement in your product's form. ("We agree it would be nicer to have matched colors...")
- Do you have any steps planned to seek those improvements?
- If not, what would you like the percentage of market share who are paying premium for both form and function to think about your brand? (I can infer your thoughts from your post above, but I'm certain you'd prefer putting it in your own words.)

Full disclosure: I'm a very active customer of one (and previously two) of your direct competitors. I've researched TSO products many many times and always decide to go elsewhere. Though I do pay a premium for both form and function, my main interest is seeing how TSO responds to customer feedback.

 

[Hipplewm]

I am a customer of TSO, Woodpeckers and Benchdogs fwiw

Anodizing prevents corrosion and allows for the easier reading of the scale. Would it be nice to have them all the same hex code of blue and same brilliance - sure
Does it affect anything - no
Do I care personally - No - I have other things to be OCD about, this isn't even in my top 1000 of tools/woodworking things to care about

I have no idea if I am in the majority or minority - but I buy tools to perform a function, so long as they do - I am happy

Also - i am one to buy seconds or manufacture defects, just to save $$ and most of them are comestic blemishes, I just think it gives the tools "Character"

 

[Packard]

Specifically in the medical field where different color screws refer to different lengths. That way during surgery, instead of asking for a particular length the physician simply asks for a particular color. Easier and fewer mistakes are made.

And if they use organic dyes, the color shift may be significant. Sunlight affects anodizing too. Anodizing serves a few purposes:

1. Reduces or eliminates the formation of aluminum oxide (white rust).
2. Penetrates and hardens the surface of the metal.
3. Provides increased contrast with engraved markings.
4. Looks pretty.

My opinion is, if it takes care of items #1, #2, and #3, then #4 is by and large irrelevant in shop tools.

Note: Black anodizing is reputed to be fairly UV resistant and does not fade (much). Not so pretty though.

 

[Cheese]

Here's some interesting information from SAF: Metal Fabrication, Finishing & Distribution company in California. They produce architectural panels & extrusions for the commercial construction industry...think multi-million $$$ buildings
They were one of the first two industrial anodizing lines to open in the USA back in 1946 so they've been anodizing stuff for a while.

"It may not be possible to represent the amount of variation between sheet and extrusion. The difference in appearance between sheet and extrusion can be enormous. Fortunately sheet and extrusion are not normally expected to be identical, and are not used adjacent to one another in construction everyday. Members of the construction team should reasonably expect the sheet to match itself, and for the extrusion to match itself. If the anodized aluminum sheet perfectly matches the anodized extrusion on a building, then everyone just got lucky, tolerant or both."

And here's a best practices article from Reata Engineering & Machine Works.

Best Practices for Achieving Color Consistency | Reata Engineering

It’s important to set the right expectations about color consistency for anodized parts. At Reata, we also have some tips for ensuring better, brighter colors.

reataeng.com

 

[peter halle]

"Note: Black anodizing is reputed to be fairly UV resistant and does not fade (much). Not so pretty though."

And certainly not pleasant to use outside in the blaring sun due to heat.

Peter

 

[usernumber1]

The brand image is in question here not technicals of anodizing. They have chosen a color to represent their brand and they don't seem to care about it.

Most brands are extremely particular about their brand image especially their brand colors.

Nobody is going to tour their facilities and inspect their manufacturing process, so fit and finish, packaging and branding is what a customer goes off of. This is basic marketing, it's a direct communication to the customer what type of folks run the ship.
They could easily go function over form and forgo any blue specifics, just sell whatever anodizing they apply, and you know what - that would be a brand image on its own that's better than this.

What I see is a great attempt at function - We stopped getting grades after school, maybe it's time - I'd give them a b/b+. Their form and branding image seem to match. This is a great product but in reality there's not much of a competition

 

[Vondawg]

I am a customer of TSO, Woodpeckers and Benchdogs fwiw

Anodizing prevents corrosion and allows for the easier reading of the scale. Would it be nice to have them all the same hex code of blue and same brilliance - sure
Does it affect anything - no
Do I care personally - No - I have other things to be OCD about, this isn't even in my top 1000 of tools/woodworking things to care about

I have no idea if I am in the majority or minority - but I buy tools to perform a function, so long as they do - I am happy

Also - i am one to buy seconds or manufacture defects, just to save $$ and most of them are comestic blemishes, I just think it gives the tools "Character"

Im with you..I have no time to write long complaints…or quote goggle searches,
…. to busy using tools (that work really well) that , as advertised…perform a function I need or want…not looking for every tool to match in color

 

[Neil Lickfold]

The biggest problem, is not the annodising chemicals, but the chemical composition of the alloy itself. Variances in the material will produce what is seen, especially if any recycled material is used in that batch of extrusion or billet. For annodised window frames for example, they are made from virgin extruded material. The powder coated ones, the extrusions are made using the recycled material in the billet before it is extruded. Some companies only use virgin material for all extrusions. The virgin material is more expensive.

 

[Coen]

Hans @TSO_Products,

I think the feedback your customers just gave you, is that many of them feel they're paying a premium for both form and function.

You've very well articulated the functional intent of your product. You also explicitly acknowledged room for improvement in your product's form. ("We agree it would be nicer to have matched colors...")
- Do you have any steps planned to seek those improvements?
- If not, what would you like the percentage of market share who are paying premium for both form and function to think about your brand? (I can infer your thoughts from your post above, but I'm certain you'd prefer putting it in your own words.)

Full disclosure: I'm a very active customer of one (and previously two) of your direct competitors. I've researched TSO products many many times and always decide to go elsewhere. Though I do pay a premium for both form and function, my main interest is seeing how TSO responds to customer feedback.

Did you ever calibrate your computer screen? Did you realize it's not uncommon to have 20% (!!!!) brightness differences in the same screen?

Did you ever stand in a bright environment and close one eye for one minute and then open it again? The red color perception is... muted. In fact... my two eyes usually each have a different color balance.

Did you ever notice that if you buy the same harddrive again a year later it has one less platter, is faster and lighter?

Did you ever notice that if you buy the same laptop twice, at the same time, they might each have a display from a different manufacturer that will never match each other's performance?

I have the TPG system and if it was colored as a chameleon while being cheaper I would have bought it sooner! But I still like blue

Hans said it would be nice... if it could be prevented. That sentence already includes the additional answer you are seeking;
-Color matching was sought, but was not offered.
-Venturing in the hypothetical is a waste of time.

I am sure that if you are that obsessed with the slight color differences that TSO is perfectly willing to, for a premium, ship you some blank ones for you to take to an anodizer of your choosing... so you can be equally annoyed at anodization but at a larger monetary loss.

Anyway, what colorimeter you use for your displays? I have the X-Rite i1Display Pro but that one is discontinued I just found out.

 

[WillettBarrel]

Did you ever calibrate your computer screen? Did you realize it's not uncommon to have 20% (!!!!) brightness differences in the same screen?

Did you ever stand in a bright environment and close one eye for one minute and then open it again? The red color perception is... muted. In fact... my two eyes usually each have a different color balance.

Did you ever notice that if you buy the same harddrive again a year later it has one less platter, is faster and lighter?

Did you ever notice that if you buy the same laptop twice, at the same time, they might each have a display from a different manufacturer that will never match each other's performance?

I have the TPG system and if it was colored as a chameleon while being cheaper I would have bought it sooner! But I still like blue

Hans said it would be nice... if it could be prevented. That sentence already includes the additional answer you are seeking;
-Color matching was sought, but was not offered.
-Venturing in the hypothetical is a waste of time.

I am sure that if you are that obsessed with the slight color differences that TSO is perfectly willing to, for a premium, ship you some blank ones for you to take to an anodizer of your choosing... so you can be equally annoyed at anodization but at a larger monetary loss.

Anyway, what colorimeter you use for your displays? I have the X-Rite i1Display Pro but that one is discontinued I just found out.

Thank you for sharing your opinion. You've made some assumptions which I either know to be false or choose not to make myself out of fairness to others. Nonetheless, I encourage you to spend your money based on any facts, assumptions, or opinions you'd like.

 

[Cheese]

Note: Black anodizing is reputed to be fairly UV resistant and does not fade (much). Not so pretty though.

There are only 3 "colors" that anodize to the same consistent color, clear, silver & black. So if you choose any other color to use for anodization, you will run into color issues.

 

[Chainring]

There are only 3 "colors" that anodize to the same consistent color, clear, silver & black. So if you choose any other color to use for anodization, you will run into color issues.

Anecdotal evidence, but I've seen inconsistency in sheen on the same piece which was anodized in black. Not a tool, but a Element III amp/dac from JDS Labs. They sent me two replacements and side by side in diffused sunlight there were differences in sheen on all of them. The newest iteration, the Element IV, they've solved that.

Anodizing must be a royal pain in the rear.

 

[TSO_Products]

To all you fellow woodworkers, customers and friends:
I do thank you quite sincerely for your interest in our products and engaging in dialog on matters of shared interest.
At our end we are limited in effectively communicating in response.

As engineers and manufacturers, we are continually challenged to balance our customer-facing priorities. We need to - and we do make judgment calls and decisions that aim at the customer base we can identify and work to reasonably satisfy consistently in what matters most to "our customer".

As an individual woodworker and industry supplier I continue to be enormously appreciative of FESTOOL's hands-off approach to financially support this forum - AND the incredible support of TWO (2) unpaid! volunteer Moderators serving effectively for not just years, but DECADES!

That said: You forum participants need to recognize that you do not fully represent the spectrum of customers needed to support companies like Woodpeckers, Lee Valley, or even FESTOOL and much smaller companies, like TSO Products LLC.
But you do constitute an important (to us!) segment of our customer base.

With your engagement on these topics, all of you help to keep us grounded and vigilant for opportunities to continue to improve.

Please stay tuned for periodic updates of interest on this topic!

Hans - on behalf of the growing team of dedicated men and women who make our products happen - every week!

 

[hdv]

I really don't see why all this is worth a thread of almost 40 posts by now. I mentioned the very significant colour differences in the various pieces of my TPG kit about a year ago (I think) and why I thought it wasn't worth my time to "complain" about it to TSO. Nothing has changed meanwhile. My TPG works perfectly, colour differences or not. It does what I bought it for and to me that's most important. Would I have liked it better if the colours were exactly the same? Yeah. Do I really care? Nah. Do I consider this a marketing "failure"? Eh, what? How so? It is just a fact of life. This process is hard. What would tuning it to perfection gain? Apart from a very significant price increase, nothing I gather. Anyhow, the discrepancies are not larger than what I have seen from the red stuff made by our friends in Ohio. So, why bother?

P.S. I do find the background information on the anodising of aluminium provided by more knowledgeable members than me very interesting though.