What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty

[peter halle]

Yes, I could believe a company would budget 5% pay raise every year. I think that would be very reasonable. High performers get more and poor performers get less.

Those days are in the past as well as $.25 per gallon gas. Most US companies are settling for 1-2% and even this for “higher performers”. Also, for higher salary you are expected to perform more efficiently. So some of this expense is covered.

I think prices going up 5% every year is unreasonable. Also, selling for the same price with reduced complectation is another dirty trick not suitable for a company positioning itself this high.

On “buy Maffel” idea - nice idea that will bring the prices even higher, so not sure.

I just started to use Festool about a year ago. Started with sanders and so far very happy. Consumables are very expensive though.

Just few days ago got TS55 and the strips ON BOTH new rails are failing straight from the box! Not what I expected from $136 piece of aluminum...

BG

Sorry to hear about your strips peeling on new rails.  Perhaps you should contact your dealer.  [member=101]Festool USA[/member]

 

[ajshobby]

I don't post much but here is my take.  Blind loyalty to one manufacturer would be crazy.  I have worked for 3 different tool manufacturers and the one thing that I've learned is that there are always problems and issues somewhere in a product line.  All manufacturers at some point ignore or gloss over the problems unless:.
1. Safety, think TS55 recall
2. Sales fall so significantly that they can't justify producing more.  This usually ends up in removal of the product from the shelves.  TI15 impact I think that was.
I buy my Festool and take advantage of the 30 day return if / when I need.  I have only returned the carvex and a vac so far.  They didn't meet my expectations for value so off they went.
I use DeWalt 20v for my cordless platform except I do like the csx for doing assembly work.  Right tools for what I do while keeping with the systems and interchangeability that I like. 
The cord frustrates the heck out of me and it makes 0 sense from a manufacturing point of view but it's what they do ( this needs to change as it would fit better with the system / interchangeability process they promote). I also now use Makita tracks because they are a better value for me.  I hate the fact they clash but time is money and I only have a finite amount of both.
Festool has a good gimik, a premium price and fairly decent quality / customer service.  Industry standard price increases has fallen in the past 10 years closer to 1% unless it's a true niche product.  More and more manufacturers are even changing product pricing now to align with a more comodidy type market strategy.  You will actually see some prices go up and others go down year over year to align more with manufacturing costs.  Festool does their own thing and props to them as they are still very successful.   

 

[BGeva]

...
On “buy Maffel” idea - nice idea that will bring the prices even higher, so not sure.
...
Just few days ago got TS55 and the strips ON BOTH new rails are failing straight from the box! Not what I expected from $136 piece of aluminum...
...

Did your decision for purchasing this track saw have a component of brand loyalty?

Do/did you understand other track saws and their rail systems, and all the pros and cons of different manufacturers gear?

What are you expecting from Festool to satisfy or improve your opinion of their saw?

I did check the various track saws and closely checked FT vs. Makita vs. DeWalt vs. Triton. Mafell is just out of my league price wise. After some thinking went with FT, even though it is the most expensive one. Part of the reasons were “system”, believe in brand overall quality and design etc. I am not completely disappointed, but had few nasty surprises (see my separate post in this section). Would expect a bit more in depth thinking from FT. Was not aware of Kapex issues until checked this post, but it is alarming.

BG

 

[Holmz]

...
On “buy Maffel” idea - nice idea that will bring the prices even higher, so not sure.
...
Just few days ago got TS55 and the strips ON BOTH new rails are failing straight from the box! Not what I expected from $136 piece of aluminum...
...

Did your decision for purchasing this track saw have a component of brand loyalty?

Do/did you understand other track saws and their rail systems, and all the pros and cons of different manufacturers gear?

What are you expecting from Festool to satisfy or improve your opinion of their saw?

I did check the various track saws and closely checked FT vs. Makita vs. DeWalt vs. Triton. Mafell is just out of my league price wise. After some thinking went with FT, even though it is the most expensive one. Part of the reasons were “system”, believe in brand overall quality and design etc. I am not completely disappointed, but had few nasty surprises (see my separate post in this section). Would expect a bit more in depth thinking from FT. Was not aware of Kapex issues until checked this post, but it is alarming.

BG

"Not completely disappointed" does not sound too positive positive.

The TS55 is touted as the best, and then when there is disappointment and the MT55 is pointed out, the FT apologists always say it is not worth the extra coins.

It basically requires some significant brand loyalty to justify the need and expense for magically long rails and magical connectors or other accessories (which pretty much negates much of the price differential).

 

[Steven Owen]

...
On “buy Maffel” idea - nice idea that will bring the prices even higher, so not sure.
...
Just few days ago got TS55 and the strips ON BOTH new rails are failing straight from the box! Not what I expected from $136 piece of aluminum...
...

Did your decision for purchasing this track saw have a component of brand loyalty?

Do/did you understand other track saws and their rail systems, and all the pros and cons of different manufacturers gear?

What are you expecting from Festool to satisfy or improve your opinion of their saw?

I did check the various track saws and closely checked FT vs. Makita vs. DeWalt vs. Triton. Mafell is just out of my league price wise. After some thinking went with FT, even though it is the most expensive one. Part of the reasons were “system”, believe in brand overall quality and design etc. I am not completely disappointed, but had few nasty surprises (see my separate post in this section). Would expect a bit more in depth thinking from FT. Was not aware of Kapex issues until checked this post, but it is alarming.

BG

"Not completely disappointed" does not sound too positive positive.

The TS55 is touted as the best, and then when there is disappointment and the MT55 is pointed out, the FT apologists always say it is not worth the extra coins.

It basically requires some significant brand loyalty to justify the need and expense for magically long rails and magical connectors or other accessories (which pretty much negates much of the price differential).

Sometimes the price of many add-on’s are just insane.  LongLife bags costing $300 dollars.  Having to pay $40 for Router connection rods to the Router to the track adapters, the $700 price tag for the LR 32.  Then you still have to buy the LR 32 track. 

I appreciate the add-on.  A lot of the add-on’s are priced in a way that keeps a lot of users from buying them. 

As nice as the LR 32 is, there’s a lot of alternative add-on’s from Kreg, Mafell, Woodpeckers, Rockler, ect that allow you to do the shelf pins and Euro hinges for less with similar accuracy.

 

[antss]

With all the I am done and up in smoke posts I think a lot of people, me included have lost some trust with the Festool brand. So what could they do to get it back. I'll start with a few of my pet peeves.

1. the clear splinter guards hanging off of all my tracks. Go back to the black ones.

2. own up to the Kapex disaster and give people a 10 year warranty after all they bought the best shouldn't it be expected to last as long as a saw that costs half as much.

3. The TS 55 has less power than a saw that costs half as much? There is no reason for this saw to be so wimpy.

4. on cord for all the tools. That makes no sense to have 2 you can't tell apart unless you look at the plug.

What about everyone else what would you like to see improved.

FWIW this is meant to be a positive post not bashing but suggesting.

The OP is making it appear that all of the above are clear facts....

  - I like my splinter splinter guards as they are and mine have been firmly attached for years.

  - the problems that some people have experienced with their Kapex saws has not been quantified and so it is a bit of an exaggeration to state that it is a disaster - mine gets used every day and is still going strong after 6 + years. There was a poll inviting people to state if they had a problem with theirs (rather than helping to bash Festool when either their own Kapex was fine or they did not own one at all).

  - My TS55 is used mainly for sheets good but sometimes for cross cutting and ripping oak slabs. It does not lack power if the right blade is used for the task.

  - the One Cord issue could be solved by Festool by making one type a different colour, or maybe the user could do this very easily.

All of the above is opinion - the stuff in quotes is the OP's opinion and the stuff below that is mine. We are all entitled to our opinions.

Peter

dunno Peter.  Olwood says right off the bat that these are his "peeves".  Which I don't think many people would confuse with fact.

Splinter guards fall off in some locations.  They seem to do better in the cool damp N. European climates like you have.  In the hot Southeastern USA they tend to fall off.  Doesn't matter if they are legacy black ones or the new clear ones.  Even the makita ones fall off here.  There's some fact in there.

I won't belabor the Kapex point too much.  If the actual numbers were so insignificant then FT should publish them and shut everyone up. 

His statement about Ts55's power is factual.  There are similar saws costing less that have more power.  Watts are watts and money is money.  Easy to verify.

I think the power cord situation has some merit.  From a users' perspective it doesn't make much sense to have two.  But you're correct , this isn't a fact.  I've speculated that the increased cost of the thicker cord is probably about the same as the logistical & cost savings accrued by dropping the SKU of the older one.  But again not fact.   

If there was only one , and no precedent , how many would complain about the cord begin too thick ?    A few I'm sure just to keep the actuarials on their toes.

 

[Sanderxpander]

I really don't understand the concept of "brand loyalty" at all. Why would I be loyal? There's a clear exchange of money for product (and service) with every purchase. Everytime I lay my hard earned money on the table I better make sure this is a good deal for me. I'm not going to buy a Festool (substitute Bosch, Mafell, Makita, whatever here) drill just because their track saw was good. Festool has tried to lock people into their product line by creating a "system" (if you buy A it and all its accessories will also work with B) but between many products there really isn't any logical overlap and the really obvious and useful stuff like systainers and vacs are pretty much universally available. Right now with a big transition to cordless power tools the manufacturers are again trying to lock people in via the battery platform. I try not to get caught, I don't need most of my tools to be cordless anyway. If Festool wants me to buy Festool, they have to create high end quality at a competitive price point. That's all, I'm not loyal to any other brand either.

 

[grbmds]

With all the I am done and up in smoke posts I think a lot of people, me included have lost some trust with the Festool brand. So what could they do to get it back. I'll start with a few of my pet peeves.

1. the clear splinter guards hanging off of all my tracks. Go back to the black ones.

2. own up to the Kapex disaster and give people a 10 year warranty after all they bought the best shouldn't it be expected to last as long as a saw that costs half as much.

3. The TS 55 has less power than a saw that costs half as much? There is no reason for this saw to be so wimpy.

4. on cord for all the tools. That makes no sense to have 2 you can't tell apart unless you look at the plug.

What about everyone else what would you like to see improved.

FWIW this is meant to be a positive post not bashing but suggesting.

The OP is making it appear that all of the above are clear facts....

  - I like my splinter splinter guards as they are and mine have been firmly attached for years.

  - the problems that some people have experienced with their Kapex saws has not been quantified and so it is a bit of an exaggeration to state that it is a disaster - mine gets used every day and is still going strong after 6 + years. There was a poll inviting people to state if they had a problem with theirs (rather than helping to bash Festool when either their own Kapex was fine or they did not own one at all).

  - My TS55 is used mainly for sheets good but sometimes for cross cutting and ripping oak slabs. It does not lack power if the right blade is used for the task.

  - the One Cord issue could be solved by Festool by making one type a different colour, or maybe the user could do this very easily.

All of the above is opinion - the stuff in quotes is the OP's opinion and the stuff below that is mine. We are all entitled to our opinions.

Peter

I won't belabor the Kapex point too much.  If the actual numbers were so insignificant then FT should publish them and shut everyone up.

I sincerely doubt that anything would "shut everyone up".

 

[ChuckM]

That's all, I'm not loyal to any other brand either.

Neither am I. In my shop, I have many different brands of machines from different companies/retailers/manufacturers/origins. Same with cars. My loyalty is only with my money in the sense that I try to get the best out of each buck I use.

For example, I don't think there are better alternatives out there than the DJ and so I got a DF500, but at the same time, I don't think I need a CT dust extractor to use with it and so I hook it up to a dust deputy with a regular shop vac.

Cordless tools? Except for drills, I am not a fan of other cordless tools and so I won't get sucked into any battery platforms.

I can sum up my tools in two words: United Nations.

 

[Steven Owen]

That's all, I'm not loyal to any other brand either.

Neither am I. In my shop, I have many different brands of machines from different companies/retailers/manufacturers/origins. Same with cars. My loyalty is only with my money in the sense that I try to get the best out of each buck I use.

For example, I don't think there are better alternatives out there than the DJ and so I got a DF500, but at the same time, I don't think I need a CT dust extractor to use with it and so I hook it up to a dust deputy with a regular shop vac.

Cordless tools? Except for drills, I am not a fan of other cordless tools and so I won't get sucked into any battery platforms.

I can sum up my tools in two words: United Nations.

People over think brands.  LG parts are used to make LG Fridges.  Sony and Panasonic use LG OLED displays.  Bosch uses parts from Mafell for some products.  A lot of companies use Sanos for their Systainers, L-Box’s, ect. 

Some people have this one dimensional view of their brands.  They’ll bash other brands based on perceived difference even when the brands are using the same parts. 

 

[Oldwood]

With all the I am done and up in smoke posts I think a lot of people, me included have lost some trust with the Festool brand. So what could they do to get it back. I'll start with a few of my pet peeves.

1. the clear splinter guards hanging off of all my tracks. Go back to the black ones.

2. own up to the Kapex disaster and give people a 10 year warranty after all they bought the best shouldn't it be expected to last as long as a saw that costs half as much.

3. The TS 55 has less power than a saw that costs half as much? There is no reason for this saw to be so wimpy.

4. on cord for all the tools. That makes no sense to have 2 you can't tell apart unless you look at the plug.

What about everyone else what would you like to see improved.

FWIW this is meant to be a positive post not bashing but suggesting.

The OP is making it appear that all of the above are clear facts....

  - I like my splinter splinter guards as they are and mine have been firmly attached for years.

  - the problems that some people have experienced with their Kapex saws has not been quantified and so it is a bit of an exaggeration to state that it is a disaster - mine gets used every day and is still going strong after 6 + years. There was a poll inviting people to state if they had a problem with theirs (rather than helping to bash Festool when either their own Kapex was fine or they did not own one at all).

  - My TS55 is used mainly for sheets good but sometimes for cross cutting and ripping oak slabs. It does not lack power if the right blade is used for the task.

  - the One Cord issue could be solved by Festool by making one type a different colour, or maybe the user could do this very easily.

All of the above is opinion - the stuff in quotes is the OP's opinion and the stuff below that is mine. We are all entitled to our opinions.

Peter

Hi Peter,

I did say the clear splinter guards hanging off of "MY" tracks. That is a fact for me I live in dry southern Alberta , don't know if that is a factor but the black ones never had this problem. I have noticed the clear guards seem to shrink. I put them on left a little long and they are short in 2 or 3 weeks and falling off on the ends.

I believe the Kapex is a disaster for the brand name. I hear it a lot on job-sites. I bought a Makita miter saw. I have been using miter saws since the first power chop saw came out and I have never heard of one needing a new armature and winding until the Kapex. Bearings and brushes and switches but never the melt down the Kapex seems to be prone to. I can't be without a miter saw so I would not risk the Kapex. I am sure it is better than my Makita but I know this one will be there when I need it.

I would never choose the saw with less power if I had a choice. You may cut only sheet stock I cut everything you will find in the wood shop or job site. I bought the TS75 for the power and depth of cut but when I was looking for a extra saw I bought the Makita.

I am not trying to sell any of this as fact it is just my opinion.

YMMV

 

[Steven Owen]

With all the I am done and up in smoke posts I think a lot of people, me included have lost some trust with the Festool brand. So what could they do to get it back. I'll start with a few of my pet peeves.

1. the clear splinter guards hanging off of all my tracks. Go back to the black ones.

2. own up to the Kapex disaster and give people a 10 year warranty after all they bought the best shouldn't it be expected to last as long as a saw that costs half as much.

3. The TS 55 has less power than a saw that costs half as much? There is no reason for this saw to be so wimpy.

4. on cord for all the tools. That makes no sense to have 2 you can't tell apart unless you look at the plug.

What about everyone else what would you like to see improved.

FWIW this is meant to be a positive post not bashing but suggesting.

The OP is making it appear that all of the above are clear facts....

  - I like my splinter splinter guards as they are and mine have been firmly attached for years.

  - the problems that some people have experienced with their Kapex saws has not been quantified and so it is a bit of an exaggeration to state that it is a disaster - mine gets used every day and is still going strong after 6 + years. There was a poll inviting people to state if they had a problem with theirs (rather than helping to bash Festool when either their own Kapex was fine or they did not own one at all).

  - My TS55 is used mainly for sheets good but sometimes for cross cutting and ripping oak slabs. It does not lack power if the right blade is used for the task.

  - the One Cord issue could be solved by Festool by making one type a different colour, or maybe the user could do this very easily.

All of the above is opinion - the stuff in quotes is the OP's opinion and the stuff below that is mine. We are all entitled to our opinions.

Peter

Hi Peter,

I did say the clear splinter guards hanging off of "MY" tracks. That is a fact for me I live in dry southern Alberta , don't know if that is a factor but the black ones never had this problem. I have noticed the clear guards seem to shrink. I put them on left a little long and they are short in 2 or 3 weeks and falling off on the ends.

I believe the Kapex is a disaster for the brand name. I hear it a lot on job-sites. I bought a Makita miter saw. I have been using miter saws since the first power chop saw came out and I have never heard of one needing a new armature and winding until the Kapex. Bearings and brushes and switches but never the melt down the Kapex seems to be prone to. I can't be without a miter saw so I would not risk the Kapex. I am sure it is better than my Makita but I know this one will be there when I need it.

I would never choose the saw with less power if I had a choice. You may cut only sheet stock I cut everything you will find in the wood shop or job site. I bought the TS75 for the power and depth of cut but when I was looking for a extra saw I bought the Makita.

I am not trying to sell any of this as fact it is just my opinion.

YMMV

Kapex was supposed to be the platinum standard in Miter Saws but it’s been anything but.  A $500 Bosch and Dewalt run circles around a $2000 dollar Festool miter saw. 

Festool worried too much about being one of the lightest miters saws on the market.  The priority should have been the most reliable miter saw around. 

 

[Gregor]

Splinter guards fall off in some locations.  They seem to do better in the cool damp N. European climates like you have.  In the hot Southeastern USA they tend to fall off.  Doesn't matter if they are legacy black ones or the new clear ones.  Even the makita ones fall off here.  There's some fact in there.

I have made an excursion into the adhesive field (from a producers standpoint) some years back, it's hard (to impossible) to make one that works evenly well in all climate zones that can be found on this planet.

Adhesives are designed to work well inside certain ambient conditions, hot melt type adhesives (as one example) can be peeled off easily above their designed temperature window and completely fail to attach to the target surface below it (as the adhesive will have lost its flexibility when to cold).

The problem gets worse as adhesive films need a release coat (so the adhesive will stick to only one side of the film, else you would have problems unwinding it or removing the protective strip), but in case the release coat isn't correctly formulated for the target climate it can unbind from the protective surface and migrate on-/into the adhesive, lowering (up to the point of completely disabling) the ability to bind with a target surface.

Failure can also be be caused by microbiology (as you could have a local species that simply likes to eat this type of glue).

Another failure source can be be the target surface not being cleaned thoroughly enough (so it's still contaminated with oil, silicone, dust, whatever).

TL;DR: Adhesives that works well in Canada can fail when used in Florida (and the other way around), making slight mistakes in the application process can also be fatal.

So... to solve the problem with splinter guards falling off the rails (in case it's related to an unfit adhesive, not application problems in the initial production) festool would need to map failures to the climate zone they're happening in and have their supplier formulate an adhesive that will work relieably in that environment - then make a batch of spliter guards that will exclusively be delivered (ideally: also stockpiled, as continued storage of adhesive film in the wrong climate conditions can make it fail) to that area.

 

[Sanderxpander]

Simply said, brand loyalty implies that I would buy a tool from Festool even though I know there is a better tool or a similar tool at a better price available from another manufacturer. I would rather be loyal to myself, my family and my friends and vote with my wallet.

 

[jeh]

Brand Loyalty Blindness

 

[antss]

Oh great , thanks for telling me I might have critters living in my splinter guards.  [big grin] [big grin]

I'd have preferred to remain ignorant on that subject.

 

[Gregor]

Oh great , thanks for telling me I might have critters living in my splinter guards.  [big grin] [big grin]

I'd have preferred to remain ignorant on that subject.

You can calm down, they're so little that you won't be able see them at all
Additionally that scenario is quite unlikely.

 

[Holmz]

...
Kapex was supposed to be the platinum standard in Miter Saws but it’s been anything but.  A $500 Bosch and Dewalt run circles around a $2000 dollar Festool miter saw. 
...

Ignoring smoking motors...
In what other ways do the Bosch and deWalt run circles around the Kapex?

 

[Steven Owen]

...
Kapex was supposed to be the platinum standard in Miter Saws but it’s been anything but.  A $500 Bosch and Dewalt run circles around a $2000 dollar Festool miter saw. 
...

Ignoring smoking motors...
In what other ways do the Bosch and deWalt run circles around the Kapex?

Their reliable.  You know they’re going to work when you need them too.  Kapex has a better design.  That’s completely irrelevant if the saws have such a poor reliability and can’t be trusted. 

 

[peter halle]

Steven,  have you used a Kapex?

Peter