What is happening to Bosch

[GregBradley]

In EU, the DIY Bosch tools are green and the Pro tools are blue. They are all blue in the US, including many DIY tools that are green in the EU. Skil tend to be lower end than Bosch but there is certainly some overlap on the DIY-to-Pro quality/performance scale.

If you look at jigsaws the US $75 blue Bosch is junk but probably the same as the $75 SKil. Skil does make some for half that price and I assume those are even worse. I consider my Bosch 1590 to be every bit the equal of my Trion 300. Of course, those aren't very different in price. The new JS572 is around $300 and knowledgeable people who bought them say they are excellent.

I would definitely say Bosch is making mostly cheaper tools and selling based upon their reputation. ALMOST EVERYONE is doing the same because that is what the customer wants. You can't base your choices on the brand name because almost every brand makes good tools and bad tools. Festool & Mafel are mostly the rare exceptions where they mostly don't make anything except the good tools. It is also the rare exception where the person buying the tools knows how to use them and is even able to tell the difference between good ones and junk.

Let's also not forget the rare really talented artists that can produce fabulous work with lousy tools. I just wish I could do that!

 

[RC]

The green Bosch tools are kinda ok for the one-off weekend DIY'er, but in my eyes a load of junk. They are better quality than Skil or other no-name brands like the Bauhaus brands or the Makita knock-offs that are sold under the Maktec by Makita branding. The common theme with all these tools @ the sub 99€ price point is that they move and lack anything more than rudimentary adjustments.

Here I see usually Ryobi and Makita as the more advanced DIYers tools. Bosch blue is mainly considered professional stuff and Festool as the expensive pro stuff that no private person has even heard of.

 

[fdengel]

I have a number of Ryobi tools and am very happy with them for what they are - they hardly stack up against Festool, and I wouldn't really consider any of them to be "precision" tools the way the Festools are, but for basic construction-type tasks they can certainly get the job done.

Nearly all of my cordless tools (other than my C12) are Ryobi.  That leaves me with fewer types of batteries to keep track of and maintain.

 

[Jamie_MA]

Bosch Tool is a wholly owned subsidiary of Bosch Group. See below for details on Bosch Group and you will realize this is a huge conglomerate, not a mom & pop.  [eek]

About the Bosch Group

The Bosch Group is a leading global supplier of technology and services. In the areas of automotive and industrial technology, consumer goods, and building technology, some 285,000 associates generated sales of 47.3 billion euros ($62.7 billion) in fiscal 2010. The Bosch Group comprises Robert Bosch GmbH and its more than 350 subsidiaries and regional companies in over 60 countries. If its sales and service partners are included, then Bosch is represented in roughly 150 countries. This worldwide development, manufacturing, and sales network is the foundation for further growth. Bosch spent 3.8 billion euros (approximately $5 billion) for research and development in 2010, and applied for over 3,800 patents worldwide. With all its products and services, Bosch enhances the quality of life by providing solutions which are both innovative and beneficial. Bosch is celebrating its 125th anniversary in 2011. Additional information can be accessed at www.bosch.com, www.bosch-press.com, and www.125.bosch.com.

 

[pingvinlakrits]

There is a whole lot happening with Bosch. Not all bad. Mostly it is good.

In Europe we have the Bosch Green line which is their consumer DIY line and IMHO everything from "ok" to borderline bad but at least not useless, though some of the tools are useless even for DIY use even though it is not meant for Professional use. The Blue Bosch line has much higher standards for wear and abuse and in the blue line I must say Bosch has yet again started to develop rugged and reliable tools with high precision. To such a degree that I have migrated some of my tools to Bosch for both price and performance. Over the years I have accumulated quite a few Bosch blue and nearly all of them are made in Germany.

The confusing part is that some Blue line items are made in China and it does show. The chinese made jigsaws handle like a metal meatloaf where as my old Swiss made Scintilla jigsaw works flawlessly. I have bought three of the GST 85PE before the production ceased. I have Bosch grinders, Bosch hammer drills,  a job site saw, a Turbo sander, an edge router, the GMF1400 multi router and they all work flawlessly and have never given me any sort of trouble. Bosch recent screwdriver/drills and batteries seem to be excellent and they fit my hands nicely. The best handling drill I have held is a recent Bosch where as I have zero fond memories of my older Bosch 12V drill, huge, unwieldy and heavy.

The recent offerings look the part for sure! If they ever made a quick change chuck system (like other Festool copy cats) I would be tempted to switch over time. I love my CXS but Festool drills have caused me more grief than any other brand in all aspects and I look forward  to phasing them out. Exception is the C12 "classic" which is still with me.

My Bosch GKT55CE has replaced my TS55 and I do think that the saw is better, as is the track system. The saw is quiet, has an excellent blade and cuts as good as Festool tracksaws and the FSN rails are compatible with (and much cheaper than) Mafell rails, they are the same.

Bosch has a lot going for them but they also churn out some very bland "professional grade" stuff. I handled a new router that is more or less the same size as the OF1010 but the Bosch variety lacks all the finesse that the OF1010 has...

One cannot dismiss or condone the Bosch Blue line in general - it has to be reviewed on a "tool-by-tool" basis. Some of the Blue line tools are as good as they get and moderately priced and in my eyes very good value. Some of the Blue line products neither brings anything new to the market nor does it stand out against the competition - some of them are even awkward (one of the new routers and the GST 90 jigsaw for example) but most of them are good to great.  Bosch tool service rep is truly excellent in Sweden. Even better than Festool I have to say.

For some of the "rough" work I do the Bosch Blue line has phased out my Festools and today I have a healthy mix of Red (Mafell) Green (Festool) and Blue (Bosch) in the kit. I didn't think I had that many Bosch blue tools, but they last and over time I have accumulated quite a few because they do their job well and last - no need to replace them.

 

[Lbob131]

The only way you could beat  an OF1010  is  do an exact copy  and gold plate  the metal parts.  ;D

 

[amt]

I could be mistaken, but it seems like a lot of the bosch professional tools simply aren't available in the USA.  For example, I cannot find their plunge saw or tracks here.

 

[Loren Woirhaye]

Bosch still makes good stuff but they do have promotional items they make that look very similar to the better stuff but hit much lower price points.

Point of fact, the 18v drill kits.  I don't own the drill, though I do have an 18v Bosch impact driver of the latest generation and it's a fine tool.  In the 18v drills they have one which is like $200 and another where the kit looks basically the same but sells for about $100 during the holiday shopping season.  They have different model numbers.    They are both blue.

Similarly Makita has or used to have a green range.  I have a green Makita angle grinder I thought I was getting a bargain on at a yard sale because it was Makita, but I got it home and used it and discovered  it's pretty lame.

In Europe Bosch sells an unterflurzugkreissaege saw which operates similar to the Maffel Erika and Festool's version.  It's a lot less money though and comments indicate it's not a satisfactory tool for those expecting high end performance at a moderate price.

Bosch also badges Maffel stuff, track saws I think.  Are they cheaper or made differently from the Maffel versions?  I have no idea. They aren't available in N. America as far as I know.

I have one of the Bosch 12v drill mentioned above.  Fabulous tool for the money, imo.  I got it in a holiday promo for about $100 with 2 batteries and 2 L-Boxxes.  I never noticed any troublesome runout with the chuck others have complained about.  Maybe I'm not as particular or maybe I just got lucky.

 

[jaguar36]

The majority of Bosch is owned by the Bosch charity (technically The Robert Bosch Foundation).  A small portion of the company is still owned by the Bosch family.  The majority of the profits are actually reinvested into the company, with a small percentage being given to the family and the charity.

That doesn't mean that they aren't still trying to maximize profits and gain market share just like any other public company though.  The reality is that most business folks think that a factory is a factory, and a part made with no real quality control (regardless of country) is exactly the same as a part made with a high level of quality control.

 

[Dan1210]

ive had crap tools and excellent tools from the same companies.
ive had a lot of dewalt over the years and only one model of circular saw was crap, my trim cordless nailer is excellent  nearly 10years old on the same nicads never a problem, the framing nailer is amazing and my old dw 707 mitre saw still going strong.
i love my bosch palm router but hate my bosch cordless multitool probably my worst ever buy.
Ive had makita drills that were ok but none of the lithium models.
my panasonic impact and drill is amazing smokes most other impacts i come across.
I have quite a few festools which i love too but my kapex burnt up after 2yrs of light use and my cxs motor burnt out twice in 2yrs light use again.
Currently ive just bought the new small milwaukee mitre saw which i really like and the new fuel 190mm cordless circular saw (which will be used tmrw for the first time)

Festool makes great tools but so do other companies and they also have their lemons.

 

[pingvinlakrits]

I reach for the OF1010 and love working with it - it is a great little router! The new Bosch looked like a plastic vomit in comparison. Having said that I have the Bosch 1400 "multi" router which is awesome, especially equipped with a plug it cord.

Loren:
"Bosch also badges Maffel stuff, track saws I think.  Are they cheaper or made differently from the Maffel versions?  I have no idea. They aren't available in N. America as far as I know."

The info that I got from a Bosch rep is that Bosch actually developed the track system and that Mafell licenses it from Bosch. As far as I know Bosch actually makes them for Mafell. They are equal in every aspect and all accessories look like they came out of the same factory line. I mix Blue and Red seamlessly - but Bosch are MUCH cheaper than Mafell even though they are the same products so the last four-five track accessories and tracks have been Bosch. Saved enough money on that alone to buy an extra Kapex blade!

According to him Festool wanted that track system but were turned down as Festool wanted exclusive rights to it. In my opinion the Bosch track system is better than Festool. I have converted to the Bosch tracksaw and don't miss my TS55 at all. The Bosch GKT55CE is made with "help" from Mafell, I believe it is a version of a Mafell machine minus one feature. The Bosch saw also runs on Festool tracks.

If you cherry pick Bosch Blue tools you can find tools that are accurate and long lasting. They have more duds in the line up than Festool but for the most part I trust them.

 

[Deansocial]

Think that bosch rep spooled some bullshit to you there. The mafell has features the bosch lacks like scoring function, easier blade change and aparent.y the mFell has metal gears and the bosch has plastic gears

 

[Rob Z]

The thing we have noticed about the Bosch tools we've bought is that the ones that are for heavier construction--demolition hammers, rotary hammers, corded drills, etc.--seem to be quite well made and are on par, quality-wise, with Hilti.  I think all of these tools that we have from Bosch were made in Germany or Switzerland. No problems at all.

 

[crsowa]

I have the 18v Bosch drill/driver, 2 routers, and planer, Never any problems with any so far FWIW.  I have a few of the 12v tools also: driver, sawzall, multi angle drill... And have been less impressed with them. 

 

[DavidW]

I have the MRF23EVS Router and I just saw that it was made in Mexico with parts from China.  It works pretty good so far and the fit and finish looks pretty good but, If I had seen where it was made I would not have purchased the Router.  My confidence in products made in China, etc is pretty low considering some of the "junk" I bought several years ago.  Too bad that Bosch decided that the profit margin was more important than the product life cycle.  Then again since banks and finance companies have been taking over companies like Powermatic the bottom line is all that matters.

Jack

Sounds like what is called a "screwdriver industry" I have to wonder if this is due to NAFTA rules which would allow them to import duty free.

 

[jberends]

This looks like a rumors thread; without any substantiation to the statements made.

Bosch is not your typical 'family run business'. Their heirs might have the 92% shares (ref) within a 'foundation' but mostly for rights protection and tax purposes. Don't misunderstand that Bosch is within (almost) every European car and operates like any other multinational: autonomous brands are marketing families of products, which are produced in many factories, either in full ownership or subcontracted. Design is either insourced or outsourced and concepts are shared amongst product lines. In this case shared feature-sets and concepts between Maffell and Bosch Blue. Product lines are available for all sectors of the market with a heavy cost-perspective in mind.

 

[pingvinlakrits]

Think that bosch rep spooled some bullshit to you there. The mafell has features the bosch lacks like scoring function, easier blade change and aparent.y the mFell has metal gears and the bosch has plastic gears

No, I am talking about the rail system - not the machines! The rail system is from Bosch.
The Bosch GKT55CE I have is made by Mafell though, it is a dumbed down version of the Mafell one so in that case the Bosch machine is a licensed Mafell. I don't think the Bosch rep was lying about the rail system.

Mafells recent screwdrivers are made by Metabo. There are a lot of cooperation between ze germans.

 

[elfick]

Speaking of Metabo, I was surprised to see some of their tools on Lowes.com today.

 

[yetihunter]

Bosch was running multi-national factory lines long before the perceived quality drop (specific to power tools).  For whatever reason (and I'm sure there are plenty), they're just not impressive anymore.    The popular products keep getting downgraded.  The new products are uninspired and disappointing when compared to the company's history.    The best tools often don't come to the states, let alone the fact that they also don't distinguish between their consumer and professional tiers over here. 

I love the fact they've embraced sortimo's l-boxx.  But, otherwise...meh.
Honestly, after seeing the routers and drills that are NAINA, it's sad that a company of their size and stature only excites me when they blatantly copy off of smaller German firms. 

All of that said, I'm sure their business is doing great. 
I really doubt they're hurting over my disinterest in what they have to offer.

As mentioned previously, their heavy duty construction machines are as good (if not, better) as ever.  That's it's own marketplace, in my book, however.

 

[Holmz]

Think that bosch rep spooled some bullshit to you there. The mafell has features the bosch lacks like scoring function, easier blade change and aparent.y the mFell has metal gears and the bosch has plastic gears

When one opens up the saw they find Mafell's GMBH stickers on some of the parts, so the BS has some basis in reality.
But yes the features that one probably should want are missing.

For their price point have found Bosch OK. Most quality seems to be heading downwards so it could apply to lots of stuff... not just Bosch.