Feds tackle tablesaw safety - Higher prices are on the way?

[WarnerConstCo.]

I can still manage to almost cut off a finger with anything.

Just ask my Kapex, she had blood spatter on her for weeks, mostly because I wanted it to feel bad. [big grin]

Guards are great, except when you stick your hand behind the spinning blade. [embarassed]

 

[greg mann]

I'm sorry Bob, but this is exactly the arrogance Greg was referring to.  I'm sure the thousands of guys that have lost fingers in table saw accidents felt the same way.

I beg to differ.  The arrogance I see is the "I don't need a guard- they just get in the way" kind of stuff, and that's what leads to lost fingers in most cases.  There's probably no data to support this, but I'd be willing to bet that the percentage of fingers that are lost with the guard and riving knife in place, with a push stick being used, and with the operator not being distracted during the operation is in the single digits (no pun intended) at best.  

I'm not saying that I'll never never lose a finger (though I hope I don't), but by following proper safety practices, by chances are much slimmer than if I didn't follow them, which is the much more common case amongst construction workers- let's face it, our industry is notorious for unsafe practices, especially in the residential sector.  

We all know that wearing a seatbelt dramatically lessens the chance of injury in a crash, just like using a SawStop dramatically reduces the chance of injury when using a tablesaw.  If seatbelts weren't automatically included in every car produced, or if only one car company offered them because they held the patent on them, how many of us would run out to buy that manufacturer's vehicles, vs. being as safe as possible driving our current vehicles???  If a retrofit kit for seatbelts was available for your current car that didn't have them, how many of us would run out to buy the retrofit kit??

In 1963, my father and I put aftermarket seatbelts in a Ford Falcon. Two months later my father was dead, but my mother and I lived because I was wearing a seatbelt. Perhaps my first humbling experience was watching the same scenery go by three times as the car spun around with my head hanging 6 inches from the ice-covered pavement. My mother and I both would have been crushed, without question. A few years later, as seat belts became mandatory and folks tried all manner of things to sabotage the interlocks I heard every excuse known to man why this was a stupid government intrusion into our lives, and how good drivers didn't need them, and on and on and on..... My dad wasn't a bad driver but he made a mistake. Was it cynicism I heard back then? Maybe, but I'll stick with my opinion about arrogance. If each of us really is honest about our emotions on a subject like this, and avoids trying to lump it in with everything else we don't like about government, we just might reach a different conclusion.

 

[JimRay]

Unfortunately it may backfire. Anything the government regulates, generally comes with the threat that they will also do the same to prices.
While I think it's not a bad strategy, the SawStop inventor may wish he never leveraged regulations to increase profit. Even if it wasn't his intention to make more money, this regulation will kill SawStops' business as they will have no unique sales proposition (USP) and they will get be overtaken by more efficient, lower cost producers.
Tim

Good point, but patents don't last forever, and I'd guess that his has about reached its half life. By the time the "Gummint" performs a few high priced studies, and the period for public discussion is finished, and Congress holds a few useless hearings, the patent should have expired, and anyone will be able to duplicate the technology.

I'm still opposed to the regulation of a safety feature like this. I am a firm believer in the Free Market System. Saw Stop is an awesome technology, and a well designed saw apparently (never had the chance to use one). That in and of itself should give it a marketplace advantage.

On the other hand, this could be very good for commercial woodshops. They would have a revenue stream to support the purchase of more expensive, idiot-proof tools, and since most woodworkers could not afford those tools, commercial shops would have a virtual monopoly on woodworking. Gone would be the cheapo job site saws that cost less than $200 new. In fact most woodworkers would be forced to learn to use the less expensive (than power tools) hand tools (you know, Lie Nielsen planes, Rob Crosman dovetail saws, Lee Valley Chisels, etc. [wink]), which could create a (relatively) massive demand and jump start the whole economy! Imagine all the schools that would spring up to teach woodworkers how to hand cut dovetails, flatten a board with a hand plane, or shape mouldings by hand.

You never know what positive effect something as ill-conceived as this regulation could have on our economy.

Jim Ray

 

[tiralie]

You never know what positive effect something as ill-conceived as this regulation could have on our economy.

Jim Ray

Agreed.
I have given governments far too much credit in actually being able to implement a regulation on pricing the safety device before someone or a company finds a solution (innovates) to solve the problem for less cost than SawStop charges.
Tim

 

[peter halle]

I won't speak to the government / economy aspect, but...

The inventor of this product - who did get patents just any sane inventor would - did offer the technology to all sorts of saw manufacturers.  They refused to buy the product or pay the price.  He then reacted to those reactions and produced his own saw.

Frankly, that is just business.  I can't knock him for that.  Nor would I expect him to place his technology out in the public domain just like I won't willingly give my work away for free.

Peter

 

[norwegian wood]

http://www.whirlwindtool.com/

 

[WarnerConstCo.]

http://www.whirlwindtool.com/

Now I can dig that.  No ruined blade and no brake system to replace.

Although, I can see it really bugging me sometimes too.

 

[norwegian wood]

http://www.whirlwindtool.com/

Now I can dig that.  No ruined blade and no brake system to replace.

Although, I can see it really bugging me sometimes too.

i agree. i would be tripping that saw off a couple times a day. and there are cuts that can not be made with it on,, so that means it comes off and probably doesn't get put on for the rest of the day.

 

[John Stevens]

If each of us really is honest about our emotions on a subject like this, and avoids trying to lump it in with everything else we don't like about government, we just might reach a different conclusion.

Hi, Greg.  It seems like you've considered only a couple of the detrimental problems caused by government regulation, or at least you give them surprisingly little weight.  This is a fairly quick read (could be finished in one Saturday or Sunday afternoon) and is well worth the time, IMO.

http://bastiat.org/en/the_law.html

Regards,

John

 

[billg71]

...... and would have saved me 1500.00 at least once in  the last ten years for my own stupidity. .....

Nothing personal but could you please explain to me exactly WHY I should have to pay to protect you from "your own stupidity"?

BTW, I don't need antilock brakes, I learned to pump brakes when I learned to drive and passed the knowledge on to my children. Nonetheless, I have to pay for them on every car I buy(ever had to have an ABS computer or servo replaced? Don't tell me it costs less....) to protect those too ignorant or lazy to learn how to properly stop.

Where I grew up you paid for your effups, now it seems like we all have to pay for somebody else's effups.

If you want to spend the money on a SawStop more power to you, it's a free market and you can do what you want with your money. Just don't put a gun to my head and tell me what I have to do with mine.

Bill

 

[nickao]

You just don't get my point at all(or disagree with it, which is fine too).

It cost you and everyone every single time someone that is non insured goes to the ER. I luckily  have insurance, but if I did not WE pay for it in added premiums and taxes and entitlement programs.. Even for people that are insured, insurance covered visits drive up premium prices. If I did do something stupid you may pay for it in that way anyway, even though it may not be in the saw price now.

I truly believe that the price will be irrelevant to direct consumers soon after this is on all saws and that the cost will be minimal, so you are not paying for MY stupidity in the saw price. I did say it would have saved me anyhow.

My example was about the ER costs costing all of US.

Most carpenters I know are NOT union and have crappy or no insurance. Plus, this usually happens at work which drives up claims, which in turn is passed on to us or indirectly through companies that have to charge us more because their insurance cost more.

I think this tech  will SAVE you and me, not COST you anything, but actually save. I  believe like in my example of  TV's, that after a time the saws are just going to cost the same, while saving society in the big picture by incorporating this safety device. Like anti loc brakes its win, win. We will have the added technology and safety factor as individuals for the same cost . PLUS, the savings in the big picture that cost us, the cost that we don't see directly, again like insurances premiums and paying for non insured ER visits, etc.

A 65" TV cost 25,000 a few years ago, you can get them for 1500.00 now. I have absolutely no reason to believe the same will not happen with this technology. Even more so I believe it will achieve commodity status in 5 years after all saws have this tech.

This is the seat belt dilemma all over. I do not know the figures, but seat belts have saved billions. Sometimes certain Government mandates are not bad. To many yes, but this one I would agree with.

These are just my opinions. I guess time will tell. In 7 years I will check the thread again and see if I am right , if not so be it.

I do get the feeling you think you will never have an accident. I hope not. Accidents happen no matter how perfect or great a carpenter or woodworker one is. We are human and it only takes a split second to be stupid.

I will add one of these devices to my current saw if it ever comes on the market in add on form.

 

[WarnerConstCo.]

...... and would have saved me 1500.00 at least once in  the last ten years for my own stupidity. .....

Nothing personal but could you please explain to me exactly WHY I should have to pay to protect you from "your own stupidity"?

BTW, I don't need antilock brakes, I learned to pump brakes when I learned to drive and passed the knowledge on to my children. Nonetheless, I have to pay for them on every car I buy(ever had to have an ABS computer or servo replaced? Don't tell me it costs less....) to protect those too ignorant or lazy to learn how to properly stop.

Where I grew up you paid for your effups, now it seems like we all have to pay for somebody else's effups.

If you want to spend the money on a SawStop more power to you, it's a free market and you can do what you want with your money. Just don't put a gun to my head and tell me what I have to do with mine.

Bill

Stupid ABS, crumple zones and air bags.  Never mind the technology that wakes a dozing driver.  Silly technology, silly, silly.

 

[b_m_hart]

...... and would have saved me 1500.00 at least once in  the last ten years for my own stupidity. .....

Nothing personal but could you please explain to me exactly WHY I should have to pay to protect you from "your own stupidity"?

BTW, I don't need antilock brakes, I learned to pump brakes when I learned to drive and passed the knowledge on to my children. Nonetheless, I have to pay for them on every car I buy(ever had to have an ABS computer or servo replaced? Don't tell me it costs less....) to protect those too ignorant or lazy to learn how to properly stop.

Where I grew up you paid for your effups, now it seems like we all have to pay for somebody else's effups.

If you want to spend the money on a SawStop more power to you, it's a free market and you can do what you want with your money. Just don't put a gun to my head and tell me what I have to do with mine.

Bill

You can pump those brakes all you like, and you're still nowhere even remotely close to as effective as stopping with ABS brakes (nevermind the fact that you can steer under heavy braking load with ABS as well).  While you may perceive this as a "protecting YOU from your mistakes" sort of a thing, I view it as a "protecting ME from YOUR mistakes" sort of a thing.  That's right, it makes the roads generally safer for everyone.  And let me tell you, as someone who's been driven into a guard rail at 65 MPH, flipped, and ground to a halt upside down in his car, I'm EXTREMELY grateful for those airbags that pushed my arms toward me, and kept them from flying out an open window or the sunroof of my car.  I'm also extremely grateful for the side airbags for the time that guy in the produce panel van decided his vehicle and mine should occupy the same space in the lane that I was driving the speed limit in.  Now, contrast that to the time I had some bozo pull in front of me in my beater car I drove when I was a kid that had no seatbelt, and the windshield I got to eat - again, not because of MY stupidity, let me tell ya - I'm all extra in favor of the protections in place now...

 

[bruegf]

http://www.whirlwindtool.com/

Now I can dig that.  No ruined blade and no brake system to replace.

Although, I can see it really bugging me sometimes too.

80 Teeth spinning at 3600 rpm = 600 teeth that get to chew on your finger in 1/8 second.   Assuming a linear deceleration to stop the blade, that would still give 300 teeth access to your finger.   With the sawstop system, your end up with 12 teeth.   Will be interesting to see how it really works.   In addition the sawstop drops the blade below the table surface at the same time as the blade is being stopped, further reducing the number teeth that contact your finger.   Its very hard for me to imagine that this system will be anywhere near as effective, but we'll see.  Would be great if it is effective since it can be retrofit to existing saws.

With the sawstop, after firing the mechanism because my incra miter gauge fence hit the blade, I could just barely feel where the teeth touch the fence when I scraped my finger nail across the point of contact.  Couldn't feel it at all with my finger tip.  Had it been my finger instead of the fence, I doubt I'd have even needed a bandaid.

While I don't think the government should mandate it, I'm a firm believer in the capacity of the saw to minimize damage to me if I screw up.

Fred

 

[greg mann]

...... and would have saved me 1500.00 at least once in  the last ten years for my own stupidity. .....

Nothing personal but could you please explain to me exactly WHY I should have to pay to protect you from "your own stupidity"?

BTW, I don't need antilock brakes, I learned to pump brakes when I learned to drive and passed the knowledge on to my children. Nonetheless, I have to pay for them on every car I buy(ever had to have an ABS computer or servo replaced? Don't tell me it costs less....) to protect those too ignorant or lazy to learn how to properly stop.

Where I grew up you paid for your effups, now it seems like we all have to pay for somebody else's effups.

If you want to spend the money on a SawStop more power to you, it's a free market and you can do what you want with your money. Just don't put a gun to my head and tell me what I have to do with mine.

Bill

But here's the irony, Bill. The week prior to my father's death he had been teaching me how to drive on snow and ice, how to pump my brakes, how not to lock them up when trying to steer, all of that. Then for some reason I'll never know, on our way home he froze on the brake pedal and we slid into oncoming traffic. He failed to do any of the things he had just been teaching me. He wasn't ignorant or lazy, but he paid for his effup anyway. I drove for 25 more years in Michigan winters before my first anti-lock equipped vehicle, and I made sure I was as good as I could be at it, but I am not as good as the ABS we now have. I just wish it had been around for my Dad.

 

[joraft]

But here's the irony, Bill. The week prior to my father's death he had been teaching me how to drive on snow and ice, how to pump my brakes, how not to lock them up when trying to steer, all of that. Then for some reason I'll never know, on our way home he froze on the brake pedal and we slid into oncoming traffic. He failed to do any of the things he had just been teaching me. He wasn't ignorant or lazy, but he paid for his effup anyway. I drove for 25 more years in Michigan winters before my first anti-lock equipped vehicle, and I made sure I was as good as I could be at it, but I am not as good as the ABS we now have. I just wish it had been around for my Dad.

Greg, another irony is that studies show that since the advent of ABS, a very large percentage of drivers will still pump the brakes instead of applying the steady pressure that they should.

In my years as a service manager in a new car dealership I found that very few people ever read their owner's manuals, and very few knew much about the safety features (or any other features) of the car they drove. It was too much bother.

You can mandate all you want, but people will still talk or text on their cellphones while driving, sit on their unclasped seatbelts, or ride their motorcyle with no helmet. As they say, you can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make him drink.

 

[greg mann]

But here's the irony, Bill. The week prior to my father's death he had been teaching me how to drive on snow and ice, how to pump my brakes, how not to lock them up when trying to steer, all of that. Then for some reason I'll never know, on our way home he froze on the brake pedal and we slid into oncoming traffic. He failed to do any of the things he had just been teaching me. He wasn't ignorant or lazy, but he paid for his effup anyway. I drove for 25 more years in Michigan winters before my first anti-lock equipped vehicle, and I made sure I was as good as I could be at it, but I am not as good as the ABS we now have. I just wish it had been around for my Dad.

Greg, another irony is that studies show that since the advent of ABS, a very large percentage of drivers will still pump the brakes instead of applying the steady pressure that they should.In my years as a service manager in a new car dealership I found that very few people ever read their owner's manuals, and very few knew much about the safety features (or any other features) of the car they drove. It was too much bother.

You can mandate all you want, but people will still talk or text on their cellphones while driving, sit on their unclasped seatbelts, or ride their motorcyle with no helmet. As they say, you can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make him drink.

Probably the old geezers like you and me.  ;D

"Now where did I put that manual for my F150? Oh, here it is, still in the wrapper."  [embarassed]

 

[fdengel]

I agree the tech should be "mandated", but most decidedly not that the government should get involved.

The insurance companies should mandate it by refusing to insure people or companies using saws which lack some minimal level of safety device.

The workers should mandate it because of not wanting to work in an environment that needlessly places their safety (and fingers) at risk.

Companies should mandate it because they don't want to run the risk of losing skilled workers to equipment that has a strong reputation for amputation when there is a safer, superior option available.

 

[GPowers]

80 Teeth spinning at 3600 rpm = 600 teeth that get to chew on your finger in 1/8 second.   Assuming a linear deceleration to stop the blade, that would still give 300 teeth access to your finger.   With the sawstop system, your end up with 12 teeth.   Will be interesting to see how it really works.   In addition the sawstop drops the blade below the table surface at the same time as the blade is being stopped, further reducing the number teeth that contact your finger.   Its very hard for me to imagine that this system will be anywhere near as effective, but we'll see.  Would be great if it is effective since it can be retrofit to existing saws.

With the sawstop, after firing the mechanism because my incra miter gauge fence hit the blade, I could just barely feel where the teeth touch the fence when I scraped my finger nail across the point of contact.  Couldn't feel it at all with my finger tip.  Had it been my finger instead of the fence, I doubt I'd have even needed a bandaid.

While I don't think the government should mandate it, I'm a firm believer in the capacity of the saw to minimize damage to me if I screw up.

Fred

Fred, I was kind of think the same thing. The one difference is, your finger need to touch the saw blade to activate the Saw Stop system. In the Whirlwind system your finger touches the guard.

So the question is, how long will it take your finger to travel from the guard to the blade. In the additional time it takes for your finger to move from the guard to the blade, how much will the blade have slowed down or even stopped. In the videos the guard it pretty big, with some substantial space between the guard and the blade.

 

[Wim]

When an accident happens to a family member or a co-worker, you will revise your attitude to safety equipment.
When a secretary, one of the beauties of the company, went through the windscreen because she did not had a safety belt on, many in the company later admitted they started to wear safety belts in the car as a rule. The secretary survived after a few months in hospital and a lot of surgery, but the accident changed her life permanently. I never needed safety belts but I wear them with no exeption. But my motor helmet saved me at least in four occasions. And I'm still glad I wore heavy gloves even in hot summers.
Some minor accidents in my youth have brought me a sort of instinct for unsafe situations. As a result I'm still very careful with rotating and/or sharp tools and I have had no injuries except a splinter now and then.