Help on Spraying BM Advance/Regal Select

[bnaboatbuilder]

I've read your ordeal over the past months. I can't help specific to spraying Benjamin Moore.

I have had complete success spraying Sherwin Williams and Behr paints. So I stick with them.

Just find another paint, another brand. Colors can be matched across brands. I just would never go to this extent. Scrap BM at this stage in the game. Start fresh with something else.

 

[bnaboatbuilder]

ProClassic Waterborne Interior Acrylic Enamel

I've been very pleased with it since I have been able to spray, roll and brush for projects with consistent quality. Only ever used white with ProClassic.

I have a Fuji Q4, 2 G-series guns gravity and siphon and T75 gun. PPS cups on any of them.

2 oz of distilled water (I keep a gallon in the shop, goes a long way), 2 oz of Floetrol, mix in paint to a total of a quart.

 

[jmbfestool]

[attachimg=3][attachimg=4]You don’t want quick drying paint so it has time to flatten once it’s hit the surface.

You wanna spray everything horizontally so the paint can flatten better.

You wanna spray it thick in one pass so it flattens/self levels.

A HVLP doesn’t atomize many paints very well because it just doesn’t have the pressure behind the tip.  So you need to thin the paint but that’s not really ideal.

I have a Earlex 5500 and I was able to get a dead smooth finish but it was a pain and I had the filter paint a few times  190microns to avoid spitting/blockage.

Solvents, waterbourne, waterbased etc. All spray differently and different brands can vary a lot.

Example I sprayed Zinsser solvent based and Zinsser perma white water based.  I used same setup and same tip size and from looking at the paint in the tin they both look same consistency.

Yet the solvent based one I got slight orange peel and being solvent it never flattened.  Water based will often flatten after a day or two even though when it was first sprayed it looked orange peely.

I upgraded my spray system because I wanted something quicker and easier to spray with and be able to spray any paint with out worrying a HVLP won’t handle it. 

I would recommend you do the same to be honest saves you a lot of stress. 

Here couple pictures of what finish you can get with a better spray setup
I sprayed these yesterday

 

[jmbfestool]

Maybe the word thick isn’t right I mean enough paint for it to flatten.

In his question is asked doing multiple passes. 

I found if your not getting good atomisation and do light multiple passes to build up the paint you just end up with same poor finish.  If you get enough paint on it should flatten.

You can spray vertical but it’s harder and higher chance of sagging or runs if you lay to much on.

The pictures above I posted was one just 10 seconds after I sprayed the panel vertical and then second picture when it’s dry.  The panel was kept vertical. 

Thing is I used a 10/20 tip at 140 bar pressure with 5bar air pressure.    With that I get ultra fine mist spray and it took no more than 3seconds to spray that panel maybe 4seconds.

 

[jmbfestool]

Maybe the word thick isn’t right I mean enough paint for it to flatten.

In his question is asked doing multiple passes. 

I found if your not getting good atomisation and do light multiple passes to build up the paint you just end up with same poor finish.  If you get enough paint on it should flatten.

You can spray vertical but it’s harder and higher chance of sagging or runs if you lay to much on.

The pictures above I posted was one just 10 seconds after I sprayed the panel vertical and then second picture when it’s dry.  The panel was kept vertical. 

Thing is I used a 10/20 tip at 140 bar pressure with 5bar air pressure.    With that I get ultra fine mist spray and it took no more than 3seconds to spray that panel maybe 4seconds.

Agreed, a single pass at the proper mil thickness is best.

The cabinet in my picture is probably 24 hours dry. The doors on the bench may be fresh.

Spraying with pieces in the vertical is a learned skill. It can go really well or bite you in the ***. It is something everyone should learn, they're are times you just can't lay a piece down.

I still contend finishing is one of the hardest parts of woodworking.

Tom

I totally agree!

I’ve spent many hours sorry days no weeks learning.

Also spent many hours researching and researching.

I recon I’ve spent £600 on wasted paint making errors and testing.

Learning your self is really a high risk.  Ideally need some one who knows their stuff and show you all the pit falls of painting.

Hate when something doesn’t go right and you can’t understand why so you end up internet searching .

I’m extremely new to this spraying.

Internal paints, external paints, lacquers etc  What to use!! Drives you mad!

  Paint cost from £8 a litre to £20+ a litre.

I like lacquers and tinted lacquers to any colour. 

It’s thin so sprays really fine even with HVLP.

It’s good for build up to sand back down to get a smooth finish because it sands to dust easily no clogging.   

Nice to use on Birchplywood to get a smooth finish get rid of the grain.

 

[jmbfestool]

[member=5671]jmbfestool[/member] - can you provide the details on your latest sprayer.  Something less stressful would be great!  Thanks!

Yes no problem.

I went from HVLP to airless because I thought if I’m spending the money I want something versatile. 

However!

I was able to get a good finish with airless but like HVLP it was stressful for different reasons.

So being rather deflated I started looking into this AAA and if I could convert my airless.

I ended up buying a spray Gun and I’ve got a compressor but I’ve orderd another one for portability which should be coming next week had to have it imported.

So I have the Wagner gun 4700 Aircoat with twin hose using airless I already had which is a graco 490 piston pump.

With a compressor capable of 10CFM at 5 bar.  Even though you only need 6-7cfm at 5bar minimum.

I upgraded graco 490 with a hopper and twin hose I got was only 7.5meters and smaller diameter to reduce the amount of paint used to prime the machine and cleaning.

Even though Graco 490 seems to be working fine for me. It’s a piston pump and does fluctuate but because it’s a decent size pump it keeps this down to a minimum I wouldn’t go for a smaller pump.
Ideally you want a double diaphram pump which has very small pulsations reducing fluctuations
[attachimg=1]

[attachimg=3]

 

[bnaboatbuilder]

I would change to another paint with the systems you have now than spend $6K on something new. Rabbit hole of money is all I picture. BM Advance isn't that important to go through all this headache. At the point of spending that much money, just farm out the spraying to someone who can do it in their sleep. Being a jack of all trades isn't an ideal scenario.

...
As I am not doing much spraying/testing these days, due to health reasons, I have been looking at changing spray technologies. I have been in contact with Kremlin and they recommend, but there not 100% sure, the 15C25 pump. As it is an investment of approx. $6000.00 CAD, I have asked for a demo on spraying BM Advance and SW Pro Classic. I know it can spray Kem Aqua and other like products, but I want to see these 2 paints sprayed before I hand over my credit card.

Now, I have learned that Advance does not like air and spraying it with HVLP turbine can prove challenging. As per a BM tech, they recommend not thinning more then 10% as sagging could occur on sharp edges of doors or panels. Thus I've been thinning 9% in my test with water only.

I have also reduced the amount of air movement in my spray booth and moved the turntable farther away from the fans. Sprayed a couple of pieces this morning and we'll see what we getting tomorrow morning.

Cheers,
JC

 

[jmbfestool]

[attachimg=3][attachimg=4]You don’t want quick drying paint so it has time to flatten once it’s hit the surface.

You wanna spray everything horizontally so the paint can flatten better.

You wanna spray it thick in one pass so it flattens/self levels.

A HVLP doesn’t atomize many paints very well because it just doesn’t have the pressure behind the tip.  So you need to thin the paint but that’s not really ideal.

I have a Earlex 5500 and I was able to get a dead smooth finish but it was a pain and I had the filter paint a few times  190microns to avoid spitting/blockage.

Solvents, waterbourne, waterbased etc. All spray differently and different brands can vary a lot.

Example I sprayed Zinsser solvent based and Zinsser perma white water based.  I used same setup and same tip size and from looking at the paint in the tin they both look same consistency.

Yet the solvent based one I got slight orange peel and being solvent it never flattened.  Water based will often flatten after a day or two even though when it was first sprayed it looked orange peely.

I upgraded my spray system because I wanted something quicker and easier to spray with and be able to spray any paint with out worrying a HVLP won’t handle it. 

I would recommend you do the same to be honest saves you a lot of stress. 

Here couple pictures of what finish you can get with a better spray setup
I sprayed these yesterday

Very nice finish.
As I am not doing much spraying/testing these days, due to health reasons, I have been looking at changing spray technologies. I have been in contact with Kremlin and they recommend, but there not 100% sure, the 15C25 pump. As it is an investment of approx. $6000.00 CAD, I have asked for a demo on spraying BM Advance and SW Pro Classic. I know it can spray Kem Aqua and other like products, but I want to see these 2 paints sprayed before I hand over my credit card.

Now, I have learned that Advance does not like air and spraying it with HVLP turbine can prove challenging. As per a BM tech, they recommend not thinning more then 10% as sagging could occur on sharp edges of doors or panels. Thus I've been thinning 9% in my test with water only.

I have also reduced the amount of air movement in my spray booth and moved the turntable farther away from the fans. Sprayed a couple of pieces this morning and we'll see what we getting tomorrow morning.

Cheers,
JC

You seem very hooked on this particular paint why is that?

You should try test samples of other paints or work with a rep.

I had morelles come out and talk to me and took some timber samples and MDF and birch ply and they sprayed it with their product and he came back and showed me the results and I was happy so bought the paint.

$6000 seems high price.

You can spend a lot less and get a good system

My setup cost
£1200 pump
£1000 Gun/hose/tips/filters
£600 to 800 compatibile compressor.

£2800

With that system you have a two in one.
Portable Airless  and depending on compressor a portable airless air assisted.

So you can be in workshop spraying and then go onto site for touch ups or full spray.

Airless air assisted is like HVLP and airless combined.

Using a airless pump you have the high pressure for the thick paints.

Only downside really is paint paint to prime machine.  Takes a little but using a hopper and shorter hose it’s very small.  I can spray with as little as 250mm prime

 

[bnaboatbuilder]

I'm just saying this tongue in cheek, but for that $6K, I'd just repaint everything the client already has in a new paint to match the new cabinets.

 

[jmbfestool]

JC,

The Kremlin 15/25 is nice machine  but it’s max fluid pressure is 90bar.  It’s not designed for portablitly either.

The reason I went with my setup

70% time used in worshop but I can also easily take it onto site work.
It’s fluid pressure is 220bar so a lot more powerful then the Kremlin fluid pressures 90bar.   

This makes it a two in one machine I can use it as airless or air asssited why not   I can spray walls and ceilings if I wanted to with airless.

The Kremlin is air asssited only 90 bar is fine and most time when I’m using air asssited I’ll be set at 70-90 bar fluid pressure but with thicker paints I’ve gone way above that pressure.
So I’m not limited to the max 90bar pressure Kremlin offers.

I’m sure Kremlin will be a more refined machine and maybe something I’ve missed but when looking at specs fluid flow is same between my setup and Kremlin but mine has more pressure.    Which really is all you need from a fluid pump no?

Regarding the gun which comes with the Kremlin I don’t know much about it but I know the Wagner fine tips AA guns are top notch!  The tips are used in manufacture spraying. 
£100 a tip does suck though if your spraying different materials you would need 2 or 3 different tips at least.

I’ll post a video I did good few weeks ago when I first got my Wagner gun spraying thick paint no thinning.

This was the one I was looking at one point.  Its a Kremlin just rebranded by Morrels.
[attachimg=1]

 

[jmbfestool]

Not very good video but you can see how easily it sprayed a thicker paint.

That went lovely and flat after a few minutes.

 

[jmbfestool]

[member=24938]JCLP[/member]

Here is just a demo of the spraying in use.

Just a sample door I’m spraying

Sorry poor video quality YouTube wouldn’t let me upload it was doing my head in so reduced quality and it loaded up.

 

[jmbfestool]

Here picture of the door 1 hour later

 

[brewster201]

Not sure I read it that way lol

 

[jmbfestool]

[member=47700]brewster201[/member]  like [member=4105]tjbnwi[/member] said I mentioned that in my comment

If you zoom in you can see it even says on the sprayer it’s by Kremlin

[attachimg=1]

 

[jmbfestool]

I also looked into the Xcite gun which comes with Kremlin....

[attachimg=3]

Looks a nice gun but my first thought was what are the tips like....

 

[jmbfestool]

Here is a picture of Kremlin Xcite gun flat tip. 

[attachimg=1]

I’m not impressed to be honest. Looking at the tip it does not look reversible so if you block the tip which is highly likely at some point.
You will spending some time cleaning the tip or throw it.  £100+ a tip you won’t throw it

The Wagner gun flat tips are reversible you remove the air cap you pop the tip out which is simetrical in shape stick it back into the gun attach air cap two quick sprays and tip is unblocked again then put the tip back in the correct way again and off you go spraying.

 

[jmbfestool]

You would need to buy some of these with the Kremlin Xcite gun tips so you can pick the paint blockage out of the tips.

[attachimg=1]

 

[jmbfestool]

Here is a picture of the Wagner tip

As you can see it’s reversible in shape so you can spin it out and blast 100 bar to blow the blockage out.  No messing with little needles to clean the blockage risk damaging the tip.

[attachimg=1]

 

[jmbfestool]

I go on.

The Kremlin Xcite has no inline filter so I believe you have a higher chance of tip blockage.

I’ve attached my gun and Xcite which has no filter

The black section of my gun houses a large filter largest filter in the air asssited market.

[attachimg=1]

[attachimg=2]