Need to route through brad nails - whats going to happen?

[bobtskutter]

Hello FOG, I've made a stupid mistake when gluing up some sheets!  :-[

I was gluing some 20mm plywood sheets to make 60mm sheets and used 18G 30mm steel brads to stop the sheets sliding when gluing them up.  I'm going to use a template to cut out a repeating pattern, and I've put some brads right in the cut line.  "Proper planning and all that!"

I was thinking I'll use some disposable straight cut router bits and cut through the brads.  I'm likely to hit the full 30mm depth with the router cutter.  What's likely to happen, I'll destroy the router cutter but how badly is the router likely to kick?  Is it likely to damage the collet and/or my wrist?  I'll be using an OF1400, plus proper personal protective equipment.

I could try to drill the brads out using a plug cutter.

Any advice is greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Bob

 

[Packard]

I’ve accidentally cut through brad nails with a router bit.  The carbide did not seem to notice.  When I saw it I said to myself, “Stupid, stupid, stupid.”

Brad nails are made from mild steel. Milling machines, using carbide bits, mill mild steel all the time.  Of course router bits are designed differently from milling bits.

I think you are OK, but don’t make a habit of this.  But note:  I am not guaranteeing that your bits will survive first contact.  I am just relating my own experience. 

I use brads just as you describe.  I drive them about a 1/4” deep and then trim them slightly less than 1/8” proud of the surface.  I use a brad pusher to install and end kippers to trim.  I always put the brads at the corners or near the edges of the boards.  You only need 2 to keep it from sliding around.

You can buy brass escutcheon pins and eliminate that problem in the future. 

Rockler sells brass escutcheon pins.  The 18 gage would be a good fit. 
https://www.rockler.com/solid-brass...MI9r-P4L_e_wIVJO7jBx2mvAN-EAQYAiABEgITXfD_BwE

 

[tjbnwi]

What Packard said, to add don't use dust extraction, make sure the dust is not smoldering before you dispose of it.

Tom

 

[woodbutcherbower]

Set the router to maximum speed. Make multiple passes of no more than 8-10mm at a time and go super-slowly when you're approaching a brad - this will allow the bit to gradually shave tiny slices off the metal rather than taking the whole thing out in one hit. Wear safety goggles and don't be alarmed when you see the inevitable sparks - tjbnwi's advice about not using dust extraction is 100% correct.

You'll be fine. For cheap & cheerful bits, the Erbauer range from Screwfix are very good. I buy these ten at a time for kitchen worktops at just over a tenner each;
https://www.screwfix.com/p/erbauer-1-2-shank-double-flute-straight-router-cutter-12-7-x-50-8mm/26592

Hope it goes well mate.
Kevin

EDIT - just realised that your material is 60mm thick. Here's the 63mm version;
https://www.screwfix.com/p/erbauer-1-2-shank-double-flute-straight-router-cutter-12-7-x-63mm/39994

 

[bobtskutter]

Thank you all for the help and advice.  Hopefully I'll not end up cutting through the brads!

[member=75780]woodbutcherbower[/member] those were the bit's I'd thought about sacrificing. 

Regards
bob

 

[Packard]

I’m wondering if Bobskutter is using the brads the same way I do. 

So I will describe my method. 

I push a small brad into the far corners on the glue side face.  I trim all four brads leaving about 1/8” or less proud of the surface.  Then I apply the glue over the entire surface.

Then I lay the second piece of lumber over the first, allowing it to rest on the four small barbs the remain of the brads. 

I perfect the alignment. And then press down.  For a sheet of plywood, I will lay weights instead of using clamps.  Sand bags work great (until they start to leak). 

This same method is useful when applying moldings. Note that there are no visible fasteners. 

The reason I suspected that we are talking about entirely different methods, is that once the second sheet of wood is in place, I have only the vaguest idea of their locations. 

A brad pusher is the ideal tool for this.  This video is OK, but ignore the idea of creating your own custom brads from a refill of an 18 gage nailer.  Just go out and buy a box of 18 or 20 gage brads.

You can skip the beginning and go right to the 2:00 minute mark.  I have never broken one of these, but I have misplaced several.  My first one cost $1.98.  I think my most recent one cost $12.00.  When I pack up to move from my house I will probably find five or six of these somewhere. 


Note:  I have no data or experience to support this, but my feeling is that a single cut through the brads will show less wear on the carbide than a bunch of nibbles.  That is just a gut feeling.  Hopefully, you will never reach to level of experience slicing through brads that you qualify as an expert on this.  I’d flip a coin and choose one way or the other.  I can see logic for both approaches.

 

[bobtskutter]

Hay [member=74278]Packard[/member],
I've been laminating 20mm thick plywood to make 60mm thick boards.  It's going to form the legs of a train set table for my son which will slot together.  I'm trying to take enough photos to be able to post a build log!

Anyway, Mrs Skutter applied a thin coat of Everbuild 502 to the "shuttering ply" (20mm thick pine plywood) to prime the surface, then I applied a whole heap of glue to make sure the surface was well covered.  I picked up my brad nailer and fired a few brads in to stop the sheets moving.  I clamped a stack of 12boards in a home made vacuum press, which I'll post about later on.  (search for mattress vacuum bag  )

I didn't put much thought into where the brads should go, just "fire and forget".  Then it dawned on me, I wish I hadn't done that, sure enough I'd put the brads right were I needed to trim the boards with the router.

Then I though, I'll ask what the FOG would do.

I like to look back over my screw ups and ask myself how I could have avoided it.
I could have planned where the brads were supposed to go.
I could have made the laminated boards over sized and then trimmed then down.
I should have put an extra 10min thought into where the brads should go.  But no, bang, bang, bang - ah hell!  [mad]

I've spent the last hour or so going over my CAD sketches to adjust the design to avoid the brads.  No real harm done.  It will just cost me some cheap router cutters.  At least there's a ScrewFix about 15mins away from my house.

Thanks for your help
Regards
Bob

 

[Packard]

The method I described assists in alignment and leaves no visible fasteners.  But either way, I would clamp or weight down the laminations to assure a good bond.

I did not invent the method I described, but I don’t recall what publication I got it from.  I’ve been using that method for a lot longer than I’ve been using the Internet.  So probably from one of the woodworking magazines.

I am entirely self-taught.  So some of my techniques might be idiosyncratic to me, and not widely used.  But I don’t think the brad nail method is something I invented.  I must have read it somewhere.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

The advice above is all perfectly sound, but I would add that it may depend on how close the brads are to an edge. The more stable the nail is, the more likely it will cut right through as expected. However, I have seen them pull out when close to an edge, especially it plywood. This can potentially do some damage to the material.
It's not likely to do anything to the bit or the router itself, as mentioned no dust extraction.
Staples on the other hand, don't go as smoothly. I have seen them rip out big chunks.

 

[luvmytoolz]

18ga is pretty thin, when I've hit brads the router and the cutter didn't even notice. If you've ever watched a video of a fly cutter on a milling machine, these things take a horrific beating doing interrupted cuts, but keep on cutting fine whether TCT or HSS.

 

[Packard]

Router bits designed for mainly cutting wood products and milling cutters designed for cutting metal products are similar in that they both generally have cutting edges made from carbide.

The big difference is that the spindle speed for routers is much higher, going as fast as 20,000+ rpm’s, and milling machine spindles hovering in the 150 to 250 rpm range.

The main reason milling machines spin slower is because of heat buildup. The milling machines where I used to work, also had recirculating, water-soluble lubricant.  The oil provided lubricity, and the water providing cooling.

Router bits can get hot, but generally not hot enough to damage the bits.  Back in the late 1960s I tried using a high-speed steel router bit on plywood.  The glue lines generated enough heat to ruin the all steel bit.  You could see where the damage matched up with the glue lines.  If there were carbide bits back then, my local Sears Mega store did not carry them.

Since modern carbide bits can handle the heat buildup from cutting all types of wood products, I still think you can ignore the brads, but I would wear eye protection.

 

[agehall]

Another option would be to get a proper carbide bit for metal CNC use, pop it in the router and plunge down on the brad nails. You don’t need any expensive stuff since we are talking about so little metal. Using this method would ensure your good wood bits are not affected in any way but I doubt they would notice the nails anyway.

 

[Packard]

Another option would be to get a proper carbide bit for metal CNC use, pop it in the router and plunge down on the brad nails. You don’t need any expensive stuff since we are talking about so little metal. Using this method would ensure your good wood bits are not affected in any way but I doubt they would notice the nails anyway.

Or a really cheap Chinese knock off.  Cut a little outside the lines and go back with your good bits and clean things up.

The cheap knock off might survive the encounter and you can keep it as a back up.  But it is likely that you will have little use for the metal cutting carbide bit after this is all done.

I really don’t think the low carbon nails will do any damage.  I can easily cut them in half using diagonal pliers, which are not carbide.  I don’t think your carbide bits will even notice the presence of the wire brads.

 

[Packard]

I’m wondering if Bobskutter is using the brads the same way I do. 

So I will describe my method. 

I push a small brad into the far corners on the glue side face.  I trim all four brads leaving about 1/8” or less proud of the surface.  Then I apply the glue over the entire surface.

Then I lay the second piece of lumber over the first, allowing it to rest on the four small barbs the remain of the brads. 

I perfect the alignment. And then press down.  For a sheet of plywood, I will lay weights instead of using clamps.  Sand bags work great (until they start to leak). 

This same method is useful when applying moldings. Note that there are no visible fasteners. 

The reason I suspected that we are talking about entirely different methods, is that once the second sheet of wood is in place, I have only the vaguest idea of their locations. 

A brad pusher is the ideal tool for this.  This video is OK, but ignore the idea of creating your own custom brads from a refill of an 18 gage nailer.  Just go out and buy a box of 18 or 20 gage brads.

You can skip the beginning and go right to the 2:00 minute mark.  I have never broken one of these, but I have misplaced several.  My first one cost $1.98.  I think my most recent one cost $12.00.  When I pack up to move from my house I will probably find five or six of these somewhere. 


Note:  I have no data or experience to support this, but my feeling is that a single cut through the brads will show less wear on the carbide than a bunch of nibbles.  That is just a gut feeling.  Hopefully, you will never reach to level of experience slicing through brads that you qualify as an expert on this.  I’d flip a coin and choose one way or the other.  I can see logic for both approaches.

I have to re-size the opening in a cabinet to fit a new wall oven.  I will be increasing the width by 1” and reducing the height by 1”. 

I will be using the method described above to attach the 1/4” strip of 3/4” wide stock.  I will post images later today when I do. 

 

[Packard]

The strip has been added. The question that arises is why not just use a brad nailer to nail it in place with glue?

If I have to adjust the size of the opening when the installer arrives, I will use a flap wheel sanding disc on my right angle grinder or perhaps a 60 grit in my random orbital sander. 

Neither of those options would work if the brads were in place.  I can take this down to about 1/2 the thickness before encountering the brads.

These are the tools/materials required:

1.  18 gage brads about 1” long
2.  Brad pusher (or small hammer)
3.  End nippers, but diagonal cutters will work fine
4.  Glue, clamps, etc.

I first pushed the brads into the frame about 1/4” (but maybe less, as the oak was pretty hard).

I then used the nippers to trim the brads to about 1/8”

I then press the strip with glue applied into the trimmed brads and applied the clamps.  The trimmed brads assure that the alignment will not be lost.