Small shop/modular work surfaces (AKA how to cram 10# in a 5# sack...)
- Thread starter rmwarren
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Car? What car?!? [cool]Richard/RMW said:
The better question is: Why is that miniscule space in front of the car posing as a shop!?!
Fortunately the car is now a Honda CRV - smaller and much more useful than my Audi. But the available space is still miniscule. Right now I'm pondering how I can make that miniscule space into a usable shop WITH the cars in the garage. And be able to quickly set up a even more usable shop when one or two cars are moved out of the garage. (And then moved back in.)
This thread is far more that a casual read for me. The garage/shop has been reorganized since that pic was taken. Lots of old unusable stuff has been thrown out or given away. Tools move around to be more accessible. Screws and other fasteners have been stored in plastic containers. Blah, blah, blah... But there is lots more to do.
This thread has given me lots of ideas. The workbench on the back right will be replaced with a heavier, more functional one. My MFT (old series) will be installed in a much heavier, super-MFT workbench with wheels for mobility. In a few days, I'll post a general workshop thread and a workbench-specific thread looking for "inspiration" (I need lots).
Regards,
Dan.
rmwarren
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Dan Clark said:
Dan, the rolling MFT/Cart project is one I am dying to get back to. The (2) 80/20 frames you see in some of my photos are V1.0 & V1.1, and after putting them together, rolling them around a bit and staring at them for endless hours I am still not satisfied with either. V2.0 is in the planning stages, and both of the current ones will be disassembled and the 80/20 reused.
I have been gathering photos and sketches as I went, so I can chime in on your upcoming thread with some ideas on what not to do. [censored]
The positive news is that with the extra space & flexibility I now have it looks like I can add another work surface that folds down (or up), at the same height as the MFT/carts and it may even connect to them. Something modular that I can configure for the project du jour. It also occurs to me that using French cleats, at the correct height, I can add an extension to the MFT/cart connecting to the wall. Something like a rectangular frame of 80/20 with plywood, no legs and brackets on each end for the French cleats & cart.
I'm also trying to incorporate the little DeWalt contractor saw into one of the carts, and now Tinker has me thinking about the Bosch glider saw.
That all comes after completing the insulation and sheathing, which I hope to get done between Xmas & new years. Perhaps by the spring I can stop working ON the shop and start working IN the shop.
RMW
My problem has always been, and especially is now, that with all of your ideas, along with those i keep chiming in with, i end up working in my shop instead of on my shop. The space just keeps getting less and less as the toys, wood and the etc's just keep getting more and more. sometime in the next twenty or hundred years, or so, i will retire and then i will have time to clear the space. As soon as I reach 40
Dan, i will be looking forward to seeing all of what you come up with as well as Richards continuing journey. You guys have given me lots of ideas. Good ideas.
Tinker
Dan, i will be looking forward to seeing all of what you come up with as well as Richards continuing journey. You guys have given me lots of ideas. Good ideas.
Tinker
Another idea I have bouncing around among the rocks in my head is not really one of my own. I have watched several vids where workbenches have been constructed with drop down sides, or ends. The most recent example having been Peter Parfit's (New Brit Workshop)portable workBench project. His bench has bothe ends dropping down. Others have shown drop down sides.
In my shop, the biggest space problem is walk around space front and back of my MFT bench. I find that at least 90% of my cuts could happen with a table no wider that the narrowest dimension of my MFT 600, or narrower. If I need to break down a piece of plywood, I do the preliminary cutting out at the barn and then bring into the shop for final dimensioning. Many of those dimensioning cuts could be done on a narrow table, but occasionally, it would be necessary to have a wider table, in which case, I could raise an extra width in the form of a flip up extension.
I have a couple of more solid benches along one wall of the shop, (where I do planing and chiseling >>> wood chiseling that is) but need to redesign a wall with tool cabinets. I have been putting tool drawers and/or shelves, either in design stage (mostly in my head) or already build with leftover stock from other projects. It would be inconvenient to have drop down top at both sides of my cutting bench (with swiss cheese holes as Festoy designed), but one design I have observed has flip down/up tabs located at drawer or shelf uprights. A piece of MDF or ply wood could be stored out of the way to be brought out to the table when needed.
I am currently working with my MFT/3 and MFT 600 in tandem. It is a long hazardous stroll to get from one side of my main bench (MFT/3) to the other. I could eliminate one or the other, or both by building a narrower bench with flip downs. One of my problems is that I have no overhead space to work on assemblies on either of the two MFT's. I do have a couple of WorkMates (each from a different era and so much difference in heights). Both of those have a full height and a lower with the legs folded. An even lower height can maybe be established by folding the WM completely. I have not dragged them out in several years, so I am not certain about that last option. A frame could be constructed for assembly purposes that could be anchored to the WM at set at the lowest height and still have enough surface area for quite late assemblies in both horizontal area as well as height.
I have found that in using the MFT/3 in tandem with the MFT 600, the older table is just a 2x4 width lower than the MFT/3. When I need a longer surface for cutting long lumber or 8 foot plywood sheet, about 4 or more short lengths of 2x4 give me as close to level surface for cutting as I can get, considering my floor is a tad wavy.
I am working on my Christmas presents for now, with working on a somewhat complicated trestle table for a cousin. I don't really have room to do the top in my shop, so when I am finished with the Chrismas "shopping", I want to make some wall shelves/cabinets so i can get some of my tools into some sort of reasonable order. Richard and Dan, you guys are shaming me into at least getting serious. I'm going to find it necessary to stop visiting your posts from now on, as every now and then, THE BOSS looks over my shoulder. [eek] Her idea is "DO IT NOW" [scared]
Tinker
In my shop, the biggest space problem is walk around space front and back of my MFT bench. I find that at least 90% of my cuts could happen with a table no wider that the narrowest dimension of my MFT 600, or narrower. If I need to break down a piece of plywood, I do the preliminary cutting out at the barn and then bring into the shop for final dimensioning. Many of those dimensioning cuts could be done on a narrow table, but occasionally, it would be necessary to have a wider table, in which case, I could raise an extra width in the form of a flip up extension.
I have a couple of more solid benches along one wall of the shop, (where I do planing and chiseling >>> wood chiseling that is) but need to redesign a wall with tool cabinets. I have been putting tool drawers and/or shelves, either in design stage (mostly in my head) or already build with leftover stock from other projects. It would be inconvenient to have drop down top at both sides of my cutting bench (with swiss cheese holes as Festoy designed), but one design I have observed has flip down/up tabs located at drawer or shelf uprights. A piece of MDF or ply wood could be stored out of the way to be brought out to the table when needed.
I am currently working with my MFT/3 and MFT 600 in tandem. It is a long hazardous stroll to get from one side of my main bench (MFT/3) to the other. I could eliminate one or the other, or both by building a narrower bench with flip downs. One of my problems is that I have no overhead space to work on assemblies on either of the two MFT's. I do have a couple of WorkMates (each from a different era and so much difference in heights). Both of those have a full height and a lower with the legs folded. An even lower height can maybe be established by folding the WM completely. I have not dragged them out in several years, so I am not certain about that last option. A frame could be constructed for assembly purposes that could be anchored to the WM at set at the lowest height and still have enough surface area for quite late assemblies in both horizontal area as well as height.
I have found that in using the MFT/3 in tandem with the MFT 600, the older table is just a 2x4 width lower than the MFT/3. When I need a longer surface for cutting long lumber or 8 foot plywood sheet, about 4 or more short lengths of 2x4 give me as close to level surface for cutting as I can get, considering my floor is a tad wavy.
I am working on my Christmas presents for now, with working on a somewhat complicated trestle table for a cousin. I don't really have room to do the top in my shop, so when I am finished with the Chrismas "shopping", I want to make some wall shelves/cabinets so i can get some of my tools into some sort of reasonable order. Richard and Dan, you guys are shaming me into at least getting serious. I'm going to find it necessary to stop visiting your posts from now on, as every now and then, THE BOSS looks over my shoulder. [eek] Her idea is "DO IT NOW" [scared]
Tinker
rmwarren
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Wayne, my V1.0 MFT cart has the "flip down" extension you are thinking of.
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This cart is still not right, and it is going to be rebuilt, however I expect V2.0 to have similar extensions perhaps on both ends and the rear. As that cart will be around 60" by 30", with the extensions up it would be around 50" deep and 100" long, perhaps slightly bigger.
RMW
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This cart is still not right, and it is going to be rebuilt, however I expect V2.0 to have similar extensions perhaps on both ends and the rear. As that cart will be around 60" by 30", with the extensions up it would be around 50" deep and 100" long, perhaps slightly bigger.
RMW
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I am thinking something about 2ft x 4ft with a backside that flips up 2 make it 3ft x 4ft
With a rolling cart, or one of my WorkMates on casters would give me variable length.
Another thought is something like Ron Paulks bench about 2x 6 with a drop down back side or cleats on both sides that would swing up and a piece of plywood to go over one of the sides. A bench over four feet in width would close up all walking space.
I keep bouncing ideas around and probably, when i get to actually do something, it will depend on my thought for the day. When building stuff for my shop, i never use glue. Always pocket screws so when i change my mind, nothing gets wasted other than time when i pull stuff apart for rebuild. I have several small cabinets that are second, third and even fourth generation.
When i was doing masonry, once a brick or stone was in place, that was IT. Never moved again. This woodwork is tougher for making decisions. Wood, nails and screws are so much easier to make changes than cement and stone.
I did have a job once where I built a stone wall five times. Every time i finished, the owner decided he wanted it done differently. We just tore it down and rearranged the stone to his specs and, of course, to what he could afford. That was nearly 30 years ago. I go past the house occasionally and I don't think I have been past more than four or five times before that wall has been redone. I guess I caught the disease from him when it comes to my shop.
Tinker
With a rolling cart, or one of my WorkMates on casters would give me variable length.
Another thought is something like Ron Paulks bench about 2x 6 with a drop down back side or cleats on both sides that would swing up and a piece of plywood to go over one of the sides. A bench over four feet in width would close up all walking space.
I keep bouncing ideas around and probably, when i get to actually do something, it will depend on my thought for the day. When building stuff for my shop, i never use glue. Always pocket screws so when i change my mind, nothing gets wasted other than time when i pull stuff apart for rebuild. I have several small cabinets that are second, third and even fourth generation.
When i was doing masonry, once a brick or stone was in place, that was IT. Never moved again. This woodwork is tougher for making decisions. Wood, nails and screws are so much easier to make changes than cement and stone.
I did have a job once where I built a stone wall five times. Every time i finished, the owner decided he wanted it done differently. We just tore it down and rearranged the stone to his specs and, of course, to what he could afford. That was nearly 30 years ago. I go past the house occasionally and I don't think I have been past more than four or five times before that wall has been redone. I guess I caught the disease from him when it comes to my shop.
Tinker
rmwarren
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jobsworth said:
Geeze, I see a ton of empty air space there! I could cram 2-3 more MFT's and probably a couple Uni-Saw's in there and still have room to stand... [poke]
Seriously though, the space under the MFT/Kapex, etc. is low hanging fruit, ripe for storing some systainers, which frees up the walls for lumber, etc.
I hope to get the rest of the insulation in this weekend, then I have to make a decision on the sheathing for the walls. I really don't want to use drywall but it may be the path of least resistance.
RMW
How about CD plywood. Much cheaper than wood panelling, but sturdier for small shop than drywall. With that, you can screw anything onto anywhere on any walls without necessarily having to find the studs. Not pretty, but you can paint it white for better light in the shop. with tight space, you sometimes need to swap a board end to end and in swapping ends, a collision with wall is sometimes inevitable. Drywall can end up with permanent damage such as holes in wall. With ply, a surprise bounce is all the damage.
Tinker
Tinker
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I agree with the idea that sheetrock is kind of a last choice. Tinker made some great points:
• you can screw anything anywhere
• no need to find the studs for most non-structural loads
• you can paint it white for better light in the shop
• a 'hit' to the wall usually doesn't result in damage
Plus:
• adds structural rigidity
• may reduce sound transmission
The down side:
• More flammable than sheet rock - by far!
• You can't easily fill and tape the screw holes and seams, but from a few feet back i don't notice mine unless I look for them
• Can't be repaired like sheetrock - like if you cut an outlet hole in the wrong spot [embarassed]
I have 5/8" particle board on my shop walls, painted white. It wasn't so much a planned choice as a lucky happenstance. When they closed the Builders Square stores many years ago, they sold the pallet racking separate from the sheets of particle board that were the 'shelves'. Not a lot of people wanted the sheets of particle board because they had been cut slightly under 4' x 8' to sit between the rails on the pallet racking. I can't remember how many trailers full I bought but I *do* remember that I paid a buck a sheet.
The studs in my shop are 24" on center, so I ended up cutting the length to 6 feet to go center-to-center on the studs. The walls are something like 10' 4-1/2" high, so I used the width (or 'height' on the walls) that they came in - I think it was 45" or something like that. I only cut the final top piece to fit. BTW, I had a Holzer panel saw at the time so cutting the sheets was a cinch. Handling them by myself, however, was a real pain in the back!!! Thinking about it again is causing me retroactive back pain.
If I ever build another shop I would use plywood as my first choice, and OSB as my second. If you should ever decide that you want the taped seams and smooth look of drywall, you could always install drywall over the top of the other materials and get the best of both worlds. Plus, if you did it right, you'd get fantastic sound deadening as a side bonus!
• you can screw anything anywhere
• no need to find the studs for most non-structural loads
• you can paint it white for better light in the shop
• a 'hit' to the wall usually doesn't result in damage
Plus:
• adds structural rigidity
• may reduce sound transmission
The down side:
• More flammable than sheet rock - by far!
• You can't easily fill and tape the screw holes and seams, but from a few feet back i don't notice mine unless I look for them
• Can't be repaired like sheetrock - like if you cut an outlet hole in the wrong spot [embarassed]
I have 5/8" particle board on my shop walls, painted white. It wasn't so much a planned choice as a lucky happenstance. When they closed the Builders Square stores many years ago, they sold the pallet racking separate from the sheets of particle board that were the 'shelves'. Not a lot of people wanted the sheets of particle board because they had been cut slightly under 4' x 8' to sit between the rails on the pallet racking. I can't remember how many trailers full I bought but I *do* remember that I paid a buck a sheet.
The studs in my shop are 24" on center, so I ended up cutting the length to 6 feet to go center-to-center on the studs. The walls are something like 10' 4-1/2" high, so I used the width (or 'height' on the walls) that they came in - I think it was 45" or something like that. I only cut the final top piece to fit. BTW, I had a Holzer panel saw at the time so cutting the sheets was a cinch. Handling them by myself, however, was a real pain in the back!!! Thinking about it again is causing me retroactive back pain.
If I ever build another shop I would use plywood as my first choice, and OSB as my second. If you should ever decide that you want the taped seams and smooth look of drywall, you could always install drywall over the top of the other materials and get the best of both worlds. Plus, if you did it right, you'd get fantastic sound deadening as a side bonus!
you wood repair plyscord basically the same way you patch a hole in sheetrock. Tapered edges to both the error hole and the repair patch, a bit of glue and enuf pressure to hold in place until glue begins to set. Just don't try attaching anything by screwing into the patch later on. The only part of the equation that is missing would be hiding the patch with tape.
Maybe it would not be very pretty, but what the heck, it would always be a reminder to always cut twice and measure once. [eek]
Tinker
Maybe it would not be very pretty, but what the heck, it would always be a reminder to always cut twice and measure once. [eek]
Tinker
rmwarren
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Plywood is my plan B, if I can't locate something nicer at a decent cost. All told it's only around 450 SF of material, but from a cost perspective even AC Plywood is about $30/sheet or $1/PSF.
I really don't want to spend ~$500 for materials so I am hoping to find a creative solution, perhaps recycling/reusing something from a house being renovated here on the island. Unfortunately most of the materials being removed received flood damage and are moldy.
OSB is cheap enough but I really dislike the look, my last shop had it and it always bugged me. Since the shop doubles as the out-of-the-wind/rain hang out while smoking (meats and tobacco) I do want to keep some aesthetics if possible.
I may be forced to go with drywall for cost reasons, if so I will definitely be using French Cleats to reduce the need to screw into it, and I may add another row of plywood blocking behind it if I can decide on an all-around ideal height for it.
Thanks for the suggestions so far, keep them coming.
RMW
I really don't want to spend ~$500 for materials so I am hoping to find a creative solution, perhaps recycling/reusing something from a house being renovated here on the island. Unfortunately most of the materials being removed received flood damage and are moldy.
OSB is cheap enough but I really dislike the look, my last shop had it and it always bugged me. Since the shop doubles as the out-of-the-wind/rain hang out while smoking (meats and tobacco) I do want to keep some aesthetics if possible.
I may be forced to go with drywall for cost reasons, if so I will definitely be using French Cleats to reduce the need to screw into it, and I may add another row of plywood blocking behind it if I can decide on an all-around ideal height for it.
Thanks for the suggestions so far, keep them coming.
RMW
Dane
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I did my last shop walls with Advantech sheathing. It is zero VOC, so it doesn't stink like regular OSB and it is much denser for screw holding and, in my opinion, looks better. I whitewashed it to lighten it up, can patch holes with Durhams water putty.
Think about a hybrid system for the walls. Maybe wood behind the cabinets all the way to the ceiling. Then drywall the ceiling area.
Then a wooden wainscot on the lower half of the remaining walls with drywall above to the top.
Would give you some protection from dings on the base and behind the bench. But cut your cost by using drywall elsewhere.
You could use 1/2 ply and 1/2 inch drywall. Or if you could find some salvaged t&g wood you could use that.
Ron
Then a wooden wainscot on the lower half of the remaining walls with drywall above to the top.
Would give you some protection from dings on the base and behind the bench. But cut your cost by using drywall elsewhere.
You could use 1/2 ply and 1/2 inch drywall. Or if you could find some salvaged t&g wood you could use that.
Ron
sancho57
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Built a cheesey cabinet to go under the Kapex, Im surprized how much stuff I can put in that little cheesey cab. freed up a lot of space. Now tomorrow I go and reorg once more moving things around filling and optimizing space until I build the cab to fit under the MFT and then repeat the reorg.... for example I have a cabinet in the back of the shop thats inconveinent to get to, so Ill move it to a more convient place and fill it with more stuff.
If I keep this up, Ill have to buy mmore tools to fill all that empty space.
If I keep this up, Ill have to buy mmore tools to fill all that empty space.
rmwarren
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Last week gave me some time off and good weather (50+ @ coastal southern NJ!!) so I got another chunk of work done on the shop remodel. After clearing out all the junk stuffed between the studs to do the electrical/insulation I ended up with a pile of material to be stored somewhere. With the nice weather I focused on building a material storage cart that fits into the weatherproof storage "shed" under the deck. Consider this to be an okay idea suffering from poor design/execution...
Among the original principals of this project was not storing bulk materials inside the shop, there is just not enough room. A couple years ago I built a weatherproof shed in the 40-some high inch space under the deck near the shop, and slapped up a material storage rack that proved to be inefficient:
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It turned out to be hard to find materials and the back half of the rack was most empty, I had to crawl in to get short stuff. The new idea was to have a cart on rollers so I can pull it mostly out to get to the sides and to the material in the rear.
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The idea seems to be okay, but I failed to allow for a cart that probably weighs 500-600#s +. There is a slight ramp up from the deck to the runners for the casters and I could not lift the casters onto it.
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As it stands I had to use a lever to lift the end of the cart to get the forward casters onto the runners & I can only pull it out ~20" or so without having the front casters drop onto the deck again.
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I am considering rebuilding it and putting 2 pairs of casters on the runners, inverted, and adding a runner to the underside of the cart. This would leave one set of casters on the cart in the front to roll on the deck, and 2 sets inverted and screwed the the floor of the shed with the runners on the cart resting on them. I think I can space the inverted casters to hold the weight of the total cart until I pull it out < 50%, then it will tip slightly and the front casters will pick up the load and roll on the deck. Kind of like how the lumber carts @ Home Depot pivot on center casters depending on where which end has the most weight, if that makes any sense.
As always, suggestions are welcome.
RMW
Among the original principals of this project was not storing bulk materials inside the shop, there is just not enough room. A couple years ago I built a weatherproof shed in the 40-some high inch space under the deck near the shop, and slapped up a material storage rack that proved to be inefficient:
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It turned out to be hard to find materials and the back half of the rack was most empty, I had to crawl in to get short stuff. The new idea was to have a cart on rollers so I can pull it mostly out to get to the sides and to the material in the rear.
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The idea seems to be okay, but I failed to allow for a cart that probably weighs 500-600#s +. There is a slight ramp up from the deck to the runners for the casters and I could not lift the casters onto it.
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As it stands I had to use a lever to lift the end of the cart to get the forward casters onto the runners & I can only pull it out ~20" or so without having the front casters drop onto the deck again.
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I am considering rebuilding it and putting 2 pairs of casters on the runners, inverted, and adding a runner to the underside of the cart. This would leave one set of casters on the cart in the front to roll on the deck, and 2 sets inverted and screwed the the floor of the shed with the runners on the cart resting on them. I think I can space the inverted casters to hold the weight of the total cart until I pull it out < 50%, then it will tip slightly and the front casters will pick up the load and roll on the deck. Kind of like how the lumber carts @ Home Depot pivot on center casters depending on where which end has the most weight, if that makes any sense.
As always, suggestions are welcome.
RMW
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