Festool Contractors

[Brice Burrell]

Everyone,
I'd appreciate it if we could have a respectful discussion here.  As I said earlier, a lot of people who are new to the community have asked for transparency, and that is a legitimate discussion for this community to have.  I also think it's legitimate for experienced members to explain why they disagree.  In other words, let's work something out.  In the end, we can have something that makes everyone happy and improves the community for both new and experienced members.  Both kinds of members are equally valuable to this community.

There is no reason to insult people's interests in the discussion with crude images.

Thanks,
Matthew

The label "contractor" isn't what I object to, it's what it implies that I don't like. It implies that these members need to be labeled to protect unsuspecting Festool buyers/forum members from their bias, the bias Festool supposedly bought. That is offensive and offending these highly valued members could be destructive to long term success of this forum. You asked for opinions and I think you've gotten them, most people responding seem to think the label is not needed and others think the it could hurt the forum. I don't support this idea and suggest we look for another way to address this issue.

For the sake of full disclosure, I fit into the "Festool Contractor" category, I have done a tutorial for Festool and tool reviews.

 

[nclemmons]

I think you may be going overboard with the labels Matthew -

If you really feel more transparency is necessary, I am far more interested in reputation currency tools than in specific labels.  I'd vote a number of members here with a strong reputation - Brice, John Lucas, Jerry Work, Per, and dozens more - because they contribute great ideas, tips, methods, etc.  I could care less if they wrote a manual for Festool for a fee, or out of the goodness of their heart.  I'll look for the insights, ideas, contributions and ultimately, the reputation they have earned in the community based on helpfulness, not whether Festool paid them anything.  Bob Marino is incredibly helpful.  He makes money on every tool I buy from him - and that margin is made possible by Festool authorizing him.  Matt - you get server and hosting subsidies from Festool to defray the costs of the Forum.  Both of you have high reputation currency in my book - because you are helpful to members and deliver great advice.  You both have labels, but its the reputation that really matters.  Not whether money changed hands.

By your logic, if Per or Brice or any other member worked in a trade show booth or went to Henderson for a new product kickoff, they may have received "compensation" in the form of a flight or a tool or a remuneration of some kind.  Who cares as long as they deliver great advice that the community deems valuable.  They'd have a label.  But what's more important is their reputation.

So rather than assigning labels, go the route of a lot of emerging web platforms and just let people thumbs up or thumbs down a member or post around their helpfulness.  Let the community manage the community.  Let the community vote on those articles, contributors, tips etc that they find valuable.  Reputation management is a powerful concept.  It provides civility and encourages accountability.  Ebay and many other sites are built on it.  And I think you'd find this forum would shine with such a system given the helpful and professional nature that I look for and find in it.  The best transparency is the democracy of the community.  If they see value, then value is delivered.

neil

 

[monte]

The problem of PCness (political correctness) is that,

Once you start, Where/when do you stop?

How to label one brand one and not another?

Does that mean that when Iain from Tenryu sends out blades,

so various FOG members could test them with their TS55's.

Are they then to branded Tenryu Contractors/Consultants?

(Per, your right "branded" does work better & I will refrain from looking for a Festool Branding Iron Image!

ouch, just the thought of branding hurts, you could almost smell the skin sizzle.)

ok, where was I?

yes, we've now gone on to Branding according to different companies.

before you know it, poor Jerry will look like a Nascar driver,

where you can't see him because of all the branding.

Nelic nailed it when he said......

"If you really feel more transparency is necessary, I am far more interested in reputation currency tools than in specific labels.

I'd vote a number of members here with a strong reputation - Brice, John Lucas, Jerry Work, Per, and dozens more -

because they contribute great ideas, tips, methods, etc. "

All of this started because of new members wanting transparency.

Well, so what.... they might have to read a little to get a sense of the lay of the land.

Do we now have to run sound bites to present accredited information?

Does everything have to be so spoon fed and saran wrapped in "correctiveness"?

All the roads here lead to a ridiculous scenario.

R.

 

[Matthew Schenker]

Everyone,
Please understand that I am listening to two very different sides.  On one hand, I have new members who say they would just like to know which people are paid by Festool for various projects.  On the other hand, there are those who say it's not necessary to indicate who the contractors are.  The new members want me to just add a label (just do it) and the other members want me to just ignore the issue (just do it).  The problem is, managing an issue like this is never so straightforward.  That is especially true for a forum that has, at it's cultural center, a spirit of openness and member involvement.  We all love that openness, but once in a while it presents us with a challenge.

Somehow, I need to resolve this.  As I said, members have quit the forum because of it, and I receive a steady flow of messages and complaints about it.  At the same time, I'm seeing people dislike the idea of indicating who the contractors are.  As the administrator, I have to deal with the brunt from both sides.

I'd much rather find a compromise so the forum can move forward.

Like I've said, I can understand both viewpoints.  To use myself as an example, as the forum administrator, I believed it was important right from the first day to make it clear what my relationship with Festool is.  I think that's analogous to the contractor issue.  I do see how a reasonable indication of who is paid by Festool can be good just for general forum honesty.  At the same time, I don't want to do anything that important members are really opposed to.

Again, it comes down to finding a way to improve the community.  I'm asking people on both sides of this debate to help me figure out a way to solve this.  Let's see if there's something we can do besides a label, but also not ignoring the issue.  And let's do it without disparaging the other point of view.

We're creative, smart people here, so I'm confident we can come up with something.

What do you think?

Stay in touch,
Matthew

 

[Per Swenson]

Matthew,

Two pages and three days of negative feed back on this issue and still you ask what we think?

I think this is a non issue. Period.

Except for Plywoods well written advocacy, and please note that "Plywood " is a anonymous

moniker, (kinda funny in the spirit of transparency dontcha think?), I don't see these new members

posting their pro-branding argument. Ya know what? The way I see it, if they don't post them.

I get the impression that it really isn't so earth shaking important.

You know that old line, "If twelve people tell you that you are a horse, its time to buy a saddle"

You don't need to listen to me Matthew, go back and reread Brice and Rogers last post's.

Couldn't be clearer then that.

Per

PS

Neilc's post also, sorry Neil.

P

 

[Bob Swenson]

Matthew,
Lets not drag this out.
Put a category in the members profile
that they can fill out.

"I review tools for Festool from time to time.

I clean the Bathrooms at Festool.

I am a paid lurker for Festool.

Bob Marino gave me a Festool cup.

This is all so ridiculous, Hang it up 

Bob

 

[Matthew Schenker]

Two pages and three days of negative feed back on this issue and still you ask what we think?

If you look at my post, you'll see I was trying to move away from labeling, and I was asking if there's another idea we could come up with.  Just to make it clear, I know how people feel about the labeling.  But I'm wondering what you think about some other solution.  I was asking people if they think we can compromise on this.

I think this is a non issue. Period.

I get it -- YOU think it's a non-issue.  Unfortunately, for me, it is an issue, since I have received tons of messages about it.  Some people leave the forum because of it.  Many people feel they can't trust the forum because of it.  That means it is an issue, for me and for all of us.  But I know there's a way to make both sides happy here.  I'm trying to listen to both sides of this and find what that way is!

Except for Plywoods well written advocacy, and please note that "Plywood " is a anonymous

moniker, (kinda funny in the spirit of transparency dontcha think?), I don't see these new members

posting their pro-branding argument. Ya know what? The way I see it,if they don't post them.I get the impression that it really isn't so earth shaking important.

I see what you're saying, but there's a little more to it.  There are a huge number of members in this forum who are potential Festool customers, and they read everything that gets posted.  But they don't post.  However, they do write to me regularly offline.  On the surface, what most people see here are all the posts.  But underneath that, I am in touch with almost an entirely different crowd.  As the administrator, my job is to consider the wishes of both groups.

Just because people don't post does not mean they are unimportant.  Consider this: those members who are silent on the forum boards, they speak with their wallets.  Just ask any dealer how important these members are.  I have to think of that with every issue.

You don't need to listen to me Matthew, go back and reread Brice and Rogers last post's.

Couldn't be clearer then that.

It's not clear yet, because I still need to make a decision, and I'd like to make sure that decision includes both viewpoints as much as possible.  Again, I'm wondering if we can use our impressive intelligence to come up with a solution that makes both sides happy, or at least feel neutral!  Let's move away from the label idea and see if there's another solution we can achieve.

But again, let's stop disparaging the other viewpoint.

Everyone: before you respond, please consider all the points I have made here.

Thanks,
Matthew

 

[Frank Pellow]

...
We're creative, smart people here, so I'm confident we can come up with something.

What do you think?

Stay in touch,
Matthew

I think that creative smart people should trust a member who is reviewing or otherwise commenting on a tool that they have received free and/or for which they have received compensation from Festool to divulge that fact.

And, you can tell all these folks who want to hide from the regular mebership and communicate only with you that this is commonly what is done at this site.

By the way, over the years, Festool USA, has given me a Toolie, a coffee flask, and two systainer latches.  And, their dealers have given me some other stuff.  I have given Festool and thier dealers LOTS of money.

 

[waynew]

Matthew,

What I'd like to see is some type of identification within the body/signature of each post of that Festool associated member indicating they have a financial association with Festool the company, its that simple. I don't want to have to go looking for that info in some hidden thread because that would mean I'd have to check it everytime I log on to see whats changed. Bob Marino (and the other dealers) are a terrific example of the positive aspect of all this, he is a salesman directly associated to the Festool company that many of us can't get enough of, as far as I'm concerned I'd like to see more posts from him and the other dealers. I read everything he posts because I know it going to be quality information. I wouldn't have this same opinion if he was not identified as a Festool dealer.

Thanks,
Wayne

 

[peter halle]

Well as I started writing this post, Per took some of the wind out of my sail.  He is totally correct that talking about transperancy on the internet is a contridiction of terms when the use of monikers is customary.  Transperancy is a buzz word. Mathew, you have gone out of your way to make this forum as open to everyone in regards to finances, operations, sponsership - and lack thereof, etc.  You will not be able to please everyone.

Where will these requests for transperancy stop?  Will the next one be that you are asked to post how much someone was compensated?  When will the "compensated" ones feel that the opportunity costs of giving of themselves in an effort to educate others versus being looked at in another lite be just not worth it any more?

When I travelled extensively as a construction project manager for a large retailer, contractors would always offer dinners, etc.  Were they trying to influence me?  Maybe.  Or maybe they wanted to also get a dinner as a business expense.  Whether or not I was influenced was my issue - not the systems.  

As a reader of this forum for a little over a year I have come to respect the information passed on by most contributors to this forum.  I have no doubt that their comments are not influenced by whether or not they were rewarded for work that they performed.  These individuals have integrity that frankly is being questioned and that is wrong.  

Its no secret that the instructions that come with the Festool products are less than desired.  So Festool USA retains the services of others to augment them - at a cost to both parties - compensation on one side and time, effort, skill, knowledge, etc on the other side.  I think that is pretty transperant in itself and for most of the world it would be expected.  It is the readers responsibility to read and form their own thoughts and opinions based on what is written.

My wife and I also own a company that manages community associations - notoriously know for their disagreements.  What is going on here is going on in parallel universes everywhere.  One person comes up with an issue, a thought, a want, a wish, a demand, and through the powers of the internet soon a "large" contingent comes on board.  Rarely is the contigent as large as they purport.  More often then not they have not been informed but rather coaxed into getting involved.  And usually it is about the smallest, most insignificant thing.  Much time and money is wasted.

Enough said.  Why don't you post somewhere a disclaimer that states that " the views and expressions contained within do not.... and that some of the posters on this forum may have received some sort of compensation for providing various sevvices for outside companies... but are not compensated by this forum for participating in this forum."

You have a tough job.  I offer my support and encouragement.

Peter Halle

 

[Daviddubya]

Show me ONE Internet forum that requires its members to be identified as having a financial relationship with vendors and/or manufacturers, and then I'll begin to think that maybe there is some reason to label (brand) people here.  If the FOG is the ONLY forum known to mankind that has some members that think labeling (branding) is a requirement, perhaps the idea is not worth consideration.

I agree with Peter, and in my own experience, gifts (and/or payment for services) are far more common than is apparent on the surface to folks that have not experienced it for themselves.  It is not a big deal, and it does not unduly influence people.  Why make it a big deal here?

If I were to count the noses of the people that fall into the category of a Festool Consultant, and that are active participants on this forum, I bet I'd run out of people before I run out of fingers, maybe on one hand.  That's how small an issue this thing is.

 

[Matthew Schenker]

David,
It might be a small issue in terms of number of people.  What makes it more of an issue is the response it generates.  It's one of those cases where perception is a key factor.  Like I said, several members have asked me to address the issue, and some have left the forum over what they perceive as a lack of honesty.  That's why I have to deal with it, and can't just dismiss it.  That's also why I made this public.  If I had just made a decision either way, without consulting the community, it would have been bad.

It seems that just having this discussion is itself helping to address the issue!  I've been receiving more positive notes from people offline about this.  A lot of people who previously wanted to see a "contractor" label are now saying they see there might be other solutions.  So a discussion like this can work, if we keep it positive and don't dismiss legitimate concerns.

I don't think there's any doubt that the reviewers and contractors are valuable people, and do great work.  It's more an issue for the forum.  I'm just looking for ways to help new members fully engage and trust what happens here.

I outlined the main complexities in my previous response.  Everyone, please try to consider the implications of this before responding.

Thanks,
Matthew

 

[Frank_M]

Folks, personally the reason I think "somehow" identifying people with financial relationship with Festool is very simply because this forum happens to be a tool forum in a very narrowly defined way: Festool Owner's. 

I bet a lot of newcomers come here to get information that influences their buying decision.  While it may be crystal clear to those who have been in the community "who is who", it certainly is not clear to many who are mostly reading, rarely posting, but sure are potential customers. 

Calling this forum Festool Owner's Group and having many posts from people with financial relationships with Festool which may possibly contain more bias than simply another owner to me reduces the credibility of this forum.  I think eventually this will also limit the growth of this forum to include many newcomers.

 

[monte]

Just because people don't post does not mean they are unimportant.  Consider this: those members who are silent on the forum boards, they speak with their wallets.  Just ask any dealer how important these members are.  I have to think of that with every issue.

Matthew, with all kind respect......

If this were the Senate, what's going on here now about this non-issue would be called a Filibuster.

You mentioned that the new members don't post their views here.......

Well, the dealers do, and I don't see any of them,

defending the views of our non posting lurkers.

And they are the ones you say are being effected.

There.....case closed.

(I say that from memory, I don't have the strength to go back and reread this thread)

You also mentioned that we are creative people here and we should come up with something,

Do you recall the term "half pregnant".....it don't happen!

Branding is branding, however it's sugarcoated.

And like I said before, where does it stop?

You also mentioned that you received more positive feedback offline,

You know in this discussion about T R A N S P E R E N C Y,

it's a bit incongruous for them to be rooting off line about this subject.

R.

 

[Per Swenson]

Frank,

We are talking about only two things here that fall in this category,

as contractors. Tool reviews and manual writing.

Thats it. The tool reviewing issue has been covered extensively and that issue is settled.

Besides you can't get away with a biased tool review.

So what are we left with? Manual writers?

Just what is sales related about a manual?

My goodness, if you need the manual you all ready own the tool. No?

I am still here debating this ...because this subject irks me.

A lot.  For a laundry list of reasons.

Each and every one of them stated in the posts above.

Basically you are questioning the integrity of a small group of people

who do a service for the many, not for personal financial gain,

(You think there is money in this?)

But because this is basically what we do, we are craftsman, engineers, and writers

who choose this as a lifestyle.

I don't have a 9 to 5 paying job, I have a 24/7 passion for what I do.

I dream in vaulted ceilings.

The underlying tone of this whole thing is that something here is sneaky.

It isn't and I am insulted.

So Frank, I do see your concern, but I believe it is unfounded.

Per

 

[poto]

When I first joined this forum many moons ago, I avidly read the posts hoping to learn about Festools. How they work, uses for them I might not have thought of, which ones are great, which ones not so great. I would say that I have bought at least three of my tools (RO125, C12, a second MFT1080) simply because of the great information on this forum. Again - this was so long ago that I had no idea who Per was, or Brice, and Roger hadn't even joined yet, etc. It didn't matter. Here were people who were giving educated opinions about tools based on their experience. I didn't (and don't) care if they received tools free for their reviews. I was only interested in the content of the reviews. It was (and is) extremely useful.

So what's happened? Have we suddenly gotten so much more naive that we can't discern good information from bad? We need a label to decide whether to believe a comment or not? I think it's insulting to the reviewer and frankly the reader. There's so much information here that I can form a pretty good opinion about an issue without having to know whether someone (at one time, in a context perhaps completely unrelated to this topic) recieved a tool to review from Festool. If Brice comments on a Rotex, but he received an MFS, his "brand" as a Festool contractor still follows him around for his every post. Should I then be suspicious of all his posts? It's ridiculous. It's like putting safety labels on children's stollers, "Do not fold while baby is in stroller." I think it's time we stop protecting ourselves from ourselves and started using some common sense. Build your own filter for deciding what and how much to believe of what you read.

I find these threads very wearing and somewhat unpleasant, but they have the addictive quality of a bad soap opera - I can't stop watching. So much energy wasted on such a small issue. Energy that could be so fruitfully directed at more positive activities.

How about this: everyone who's posted in this thread has to start a thread about something positive on another topic: a project, a jig, a tool review....

Penance for sucking us all into this soap opera.

 

[Forrest Anderson]

Calling this forum Festool Owner's Group and having many posts from people with financial relationships with Festool which may possibly contain more bias than simply another owner to me reduces the credibility of this forum.  I think eventually this will also limit the growth of this forum to include many newcomers.

That seems to be saying that the participation of Festool dealers, Festool employees and other people who get financial reward from Festool, is limiting the growth and reducing the credibility of FOG. Are you suggesting that these people should not be members of the Festool Owners Group? If so, that's a very controversial stance to take! Or are you saying that saying that if these types of people are members, then to retain credibility the group should not be called the "Festool Owners Group"?

Forrest

 

[Forrest Anderson]

It's like putting safety labels on children's stollers, "Do not fold while baby is in stroller."

;D  Or maybe a label on a bar of "Fruit & Nut" chocolate which says "Warning - May contain nuts".

Why don't you post somewhere a disclaimer that states that " the views and expressions contained within do not.... and that some of the posters on this forum may have received some sort of compensation for providing various sevvices for outside companies... but are not compensated by this forum for participating in this forum."

Matthew is looking for a compromise between the two camps, and I rather like the idea of a disclaimer.

Forrest

 

[poto]

I should have mentioned in my post above that I have a financial relationship with Festool: I give them my money, and they give me their tools.

 

[Dave Hale]

If one of these people are getting paid for each positive Festool post and dinged at bonus time for negative posts, then label them.
Otherwise, let us make our own decisions on how many 'grains of salt' we take when reading their sage advice.......

I have vendors that pay for trips to conferences, cover food & hotel too. I still only recommend them when they're a fit, and won't hesitate to nay-say them when they're not. I'm comfortable with trusting the integrity of these people that contribute valuable information to the forum, and I'm comfortable with me being able to detect BS. Ultimately, if I buy a Festool product based on other's recommendations and I'm disappointed.............I'm out nothing (30 days) and, well, I'll let everyone know if that ever happens.

Hey, I like kind of that... If we gotta label anyone, how about 'Sage Advisors'? 

Post number 1 BTW, so I B a lurker,  I've never pm'd Matthew, and I love this site and the content available on it.