New line of Festool products at Home Depot...

[herbsandspices]

I do not blame the Chinese for this quality issue. I blame the companies that actually go ahead and sub out the work to the Chinese companies and then sell us sub standard tools knowing about  these quality issues.

Great distinction, Nick.

 

[bill-e]

I do not blame the Chinese for this quality issue. I blame the companies that actually go ahead and sub out the work to the Chinese companies and then sell us sub standard tools knowing about  these quality issues.

Great distinction, Nick.

I disagree.  Blame the American consumer as these companies are giving them exactly what they want, inexpensive products.

 

[woodshopdemos]

Tinker's comment has brought my favorite statement out: "The most expensive tool is the one that doesn't work."

 

[mastercabman]

and at the same price too. I don't have to shop around for the best deal.

Yeah, also known as...Price Fixing.  Something that is usually illegal in the US (but not in Europe). 

Festool is not made in China!

Nether are many Bosch tools.  Many are made is Switzerland.  If you have a good tool, then you will get enough volume to be competitive.

If they showed up at Blowes or the Despair, I think I would move on.

To what?...as far as I know, there's only one Festool.  Meaning, a company that a) brings unique features to almost every product, b) has outstanding dust control c) is designed as a system and d) charges 3X more than everyone else for the privilege.

Keep in mind guys...I really like Festool.  I just don't think they have to be reserved only to those willing (and proud) to pay 3x.  There's no reason why even the "common man" shouldn't by able to afford the safety and innovation of Festool.  We're talking about a POWER TOOL here...not the cure for cancer.  These things don't cost that much to manufacture in quantity.  The money is in the R&D.  Why wait until the patents expire and DeWalt or the Chinese copies the design and reap most of the benefit (heck, the patent doesn't even have to expire for the Chinese copy you).  Now, before you say it, I know the DeWalt plunge saw is almost as expensive as the Festool.  However, let's compare prices in 12 to 18 months and see if there's a difference.  Want to wager on it?   

I don't think festool charges 3x,more like2x.But you get what you pay for,and how can you compare some of there tools when no one else has anything like it.
OK,look at the plunge cut saw,DeWalt now has one.  It is the same price!        Do you see that saw at HD or LOWES?  I have not.

 

[bill-e]

and at the same price too. I don't have to shop around for the best deal.

Yeah, also known as...Price Fixing.  Something that is usually illegal in the US (but not in Europe). 
a difference.  Want to wager on it?   

We've been through this before.  Price Fixing is illegal in the US but what Festool does is not price fixing.  IIRC, Price Fixing involves collusion between different companies to fix the price of an item that they all sell.  An example might be Shell, Exxon, Texaco and Mobil agreeing amongst themselves to sell gas at $3.00/gal.

There are many items that have set prices established by the manufacturer, one that immediately comes to mind in the woodworking area is the Tormek.

 

[Jim Becker]

What needs to be understood about mass marketers such as Home Depot, Lowes, Walmart, etc., is that they require their vendors to meet certain specifications and price points. I seriously doubt that a company like Festool would ever agree to make the kind of changes to products to meet those  requirements. And that's good, IMHO.

 

[Jim Becker]

Tinker's comment has brought my favorite statement out: "The most expensive tool is the one that doesn't work."

Very much in line with one I've often made... "The most expensive tools are the ones you need to replace early and often..."

 

[Notorious T.O.D.]

I have a friend in Ohio who back in the 80s used to make a good living buying overstocks and seconds of power tools and reselling them to individuals.  Then as  the Lowes and HD stores started to expand he found himself unable to buy the second quality tools that he had been getting by the truckload.  I'll let you take it from here and figure out where they went...but I will say that one should not assume that the tool you buy on sale at these big stores is always first quality.

Bottom line is that there are people who want to buy a tool to use once or twice a year and there are people who buy tools that they may use often or even daily.  There are among those some who also care about what I will call "pride of ownership" in owning a finely crafted tool that not everyone else has or uses.
Thus we have a market for Festool, Lie Neilsen, Bridge City, and even some older stuff like Norris, etc.

It is what I like to call the innovation factor.  These companies were and are innovators in their respective domains, just as Apple is an innovator in PCs and personal entertainment, while others like Dell are more interested in supplying a commodity product to the masses at a low price, but they are not considered innovators in product design and functionality, but perhaps in mass manufacturing and mass marketing.

Best,
Todd

 

[marrt]

Perhaps instead of Festool lowering their standards to compete with Bosch et al...

Again, Festool should NOT lower their standards or quality.  This would be a HUGE mistake.

IIRC, Price Fixing involves collusion between different companies to fix the price of an item that they all sell.

If you sell me something, it's mine.  I own it.  I can resell it for any price I want.  In fact, I can use price alone as my distinctive value add in order to compete.  This is a fundamental principle of capitalism and, in part, sets up an economic Darwinism that has resulted in the highest standard of living in the world.  Any direct interference with this model is price fixing.  Most manufacturers use a co-op (cooperative advertising) program to persuade the dealer.  The manufacturer will rebate to the dealer a certain percentage of sales (usually 4%-6% on expensive goods) if the dealer ADVERTISES the manufacturers recommended price.  The dealer was still free to negotiate any price face to face with the customer.  What Festool is doing is clearly price fixing in it's purest form.  The argument that it requires two or more companies to price fix is a Red Herring.  If you have dealers and don't allow them to compete using price, then it's price fixing...by definition.

Once you get a big box store involved then pressures can be applied that are counter productive to their model.

This is 100% true and why many companies fail in the transition.  I have sold products to mass retailers and am speaking from experience.   However, if you have a unique product, like Festool, then you can resist the pressure.  When you have a "me too" product, like 99% of products out there these days, then you do what the retailer says and you like it.

...just as Apple is an innovator in PCs and personal entertainment, while others like Dell are more interested in supplying a commodity product to the masses at a low price, but they are not considered innovators in product design and functionality, but perhaps in mass manufacturing and mass marketing.

Also true.  However, an Apple PC is only 20%-30% more expensive than the equivalent Dell.  Not the 200%-300% that Festool demands.  Except for luxury goods, usually the innovative "best" product will be priced at a modest premium over the competition...unless you have to rely on specialty distribution.  Then you get into the same problem as Festool.  At the manufacturer level, you have to get a 50% margin to make up for the low volume.  And you have to offer the dealer a 40%-50% margin to handle a product with low volume.  You then find yourself priced 2x+ over the competition.  Not because your product actually costs that much more for parts and labor to manufacture....but because of the distribution model you have selected and the need to recover R&D expenses from a low volume line.   

CHEAP AIN'T CHEAP

It seems that every 2 months or so, I decide to bite the bullet and start down the green slippery slope.  I'm sensitive to wood dust (why I'm always interested in Festool) so yesterday I started my ritual by pricing out a CT33 with Boom...total of $800.  Are you kidding me?  $560 for vacuum cleaner and another $240 just to keep the hose out of the way.  Then, $10+ for any and every little plastic part that we all know costs $0.05 to make in quantity.  I mean, come on guys.   I also agree that Cheap Ain't Cheap and that You Are Never Sorry For Buying The Best and all that.  However, I don't like getting hosed ether (no pun). 

So, after reviewing this discussion, the solution may not be to introduce the line to Home Depot.  Maybe that would drive away the disciples by tarnishing the brand too much or risk a siren's call of quick profits that Festool just couldn't resist.  The main reason to consider HD in the first place was simply to reduce the cut of the middle man to make the products more affordable to the common man. 

So, I have a new proposition...eliminate the dealers altogether and go direct.  Many of you order from online dealers anyway.  By eliminating the dealer network, then Festool gets to keep part of the 40% margin they are giving to the dealer...and they can pass along a little to the end user to make the products more affordable.  Again, everyone wins (except the dealer of course).  For tools this expensive, the 40% "value add" the dealer is providing puts the tools out of reach for too many people who deserve a chance to worship at the alter of Festo.     

 

[Jesse Cloud]

Good thread.  I'll join the camp that letting Home Disappointment into the tent would spoil a good tool.  The big retailers exert a huge amount of pressure on their suppliers, generally to lower prices and quality. 

It is not always true that a specific brand name tool, say a DeWalt widget driver, is the same everywhere it is sold.  Suppliers have been making special models for the big boxes for years, generally with cheaper materials.  Unfortunately, its darned hard, if not impossible, to tell what you are getting unless you have another of the same model to compare it to.

I doubt seriously if HD would sell Festools even at a 20-30% premium.  You can hardly even find top of the line DeWalt or Bosch there anymore.

I am happy to pay more for quality, innovative tools.  I don't remember how much I paid for most of my Festools, because they deliver value, but everytime I use a cheap POS from HD or HF, somehow I remember exactly how much I paid because I wasted every nickel of it.

 

[bill-e]

So, I have a new proposition...eliminate the dealers altogether and go direct.  Many of you order from online dealers anyway.  By eliminating the dealer network, then Festool gets to keep part of the 40% margin they are giving to the dealer...and they can pass along a little to the end user to make the products more affordable.  Again, everyone wins (except the dealer of course).  For tools this expensive, the 40% "value add" the dealer is providing puts the tools out of reach for too many people who deserve a chance to worship at the alter of Festo.     

That would eliminate the dealers customer service too I would imagine.  Perhaps you should read through the forum and see how many if not most Festool owners appreciate the personal service they get from the dealers.  Dealers have been known to overnight their personal tools to a customer to hold them over until the customer's get's repaired as an example.

Again, I'd love for the tools to be less expensive, but I don't think I want to trade price for service or quality.

 

[Steve Jones]

Everyone except the guy who started this thread has said "Sure they are expensive, but they're worth it - I'm happy I spent as much as I did on the tools"

And the guy (who doesn't own any) is finding twenty ways to say "I want them cheaper"

Seems to me they are readily available cheaper - all over the country, at a store near you.....

They just come in different colors (Blue and yellow etc)

If you don't want to pay a premium price to fund development in future leading edge tools that will last a lifetime of professional use....

It's a free country - buy something else.

You could make the argument that BMW cars should be sold at Walmart - then we could all own a Yugo with a BMW badge stuck on it - how would that benefit anyone?

 

[WarnerConstCo.]

The local dealers are the heart and soul of Festool.

If I have a tool that breaks, take it to my local Woodcraft and George will send it back for repairs.

In the mean time, if that was a Bosch or Makita or whatever I would have NO TOOL to use to make money.

With Woodcraft and George there, I get one of their demo tools to use untill mine comes back.

I dont think Home Despair ar Blowes will do that for you.

500.00 dust extractor???  WORTH every penny, 500.00 drill, IT WAS A DEAL!!!

If you want to buy stuff at HD or whatever, be prepared to buy it a couple more times.

I had 2 10" makita SCMS Fall apart from there, finally got my money back and went to a real store to get my Bosch.

Hold it!!  Why stop at HD  I hope the Chuck Homier tool tent will have Festool this year!!!

Get real, we got what we wanted from China, cheap crap.  I hate cheap crap!!!

 

[PeterK]

My very selfish viewpoint---
What I love is that after purchasing a specific Festool item - RO150 for example - is that if I take care of it and keep it nice looking is I can sell it for very close to what I paid for it and purchase the next version when released for $100 or so. I have done this several times with the 55 saw, various sanders, jig saw. Now if I was using the tools hard in a commercial endeavor, I would not be able to recover as many $ but it is absolutely amazing how these tools hold resale value. I am quite anal about taking care of my tools with so many $ invested up front and so far it really pays off so to speak.

So - I sure hope Festool NEVER does anything to lower current pricing or come out with a discounted version. As I said, a selfish viewpoint from someone with the $s already invested. A new buyer sure would have a different viewpoint at time of purchase but would realize later that value means many things and resale value retention is incredible.

Pete

 

[marrt]

Everyone except the guy who started this thread has said "Sure they are expensive, but they're worth it - I'm happy I spent as much as I did on the tools"

Umm...it's the Festool Owners Group.  I wasn't expecting people to say..."Gee, what was I thinking...paying 3x for a tool that's only 50% better than the competition."  Those people have resold their tools on eBay or CL and moved on.  I'm not saying that it isn't logical to pay that for some people.  It is.  Time is money.  And some Festools can definitely save you time.  But for the "average" woodworker, this equation doesn't usually make sense.

In the mean time, if that was a Bosch or Makita or whatever I would have NO TOOL to use to make money.

Not to be argumentative, but I doubt that.  Most serious woodworkers have MANY copies of any tool.  Really, how many of you have 2 or 3 routers, jigsaws, dirlls, etc... laying around.  I know I do.  And for the price of one Festool, you can buy 3 Makitas.  In fact, the opposite could be argued....Festool is so expensive that you can usually only afford one of each.  So, if one breaks, you're in trouble because you don't have a spare (assuming you've "committed" to the line).  Maybe that's why a good dealer network makes sense...as someone already alluded.   

I hate cheap crap!!!

So do I.  But I've stated twice in this thread that the quality must not deteriorate as a precondition.  I guess most people think that's not possible if you move to mass retail.  Maybe you are right.  There's a lot of evidence to suggest this is usually true.

I once owned a BMW.  But I bought it for emotional reasons, not logical.  A car tends to "project" an image related to how you want to be seen by others.  Tools, on the other hand, are usually...well...tools.  Purchased for logical reasons, not as a luxury item.  I mean, would my neighbors even know I have Festools?  If Festool is a luxury item, then they should offer bumper stickers (for $29.95 of course)..."Proud Festool Owner On Board."  I'd like to buy these tools for their utility and safety...not because they are the "BMW of tools."  I said at the beginning of the thread that Festool should use a "sub-brand."  Those wanting to own and pay for a "true Festool from a real Festool dealer" could still do so. 

My FIL died of lung cancer and wood dust was a major contributing factor.  It would be nice if Festool could bring their safety technology to a wider audience.  There's social value in this.  Unless mandated by the government, most companies will not add these features.  If a beginning woodworker is aware of the dangers of dust, what are they to do?  Wait until they can afford Festool.  Seems like a shame...for Festool and for the art. 

Thanks to everyone for keeping the thread civil.

 

[nickao]

I don't get that. I buy a tool to keep for life not based on resale value. If I ever sell a tool its becasue I either never used it or the tool was not good. Festools are so expensive its not like they are a path to upgraded tools. You are at the top. So I personally fail to see resale cost as a benefit for a tool for ME.

The local dealers may be the heart and soul for you. Not me. I buy online and getter better service from any of the online guys here. There is not a dealer I have ever met that knows close to what most guys here know about the tools. Heck half the time at Woodcraft and Rockler they would tell me I am wrong or they never heard of that and so on. I stopped going to the stores my self long ago. The guys at Woodcraft are not Bob Marino or Festool Junkie.

A local Festool dealer can no way stay in business only selling Festools locally. They have to carry other brands and definitely have to have an online presence to make the sales. That's probably why a lot of stores no longer even stock the Festools. Not a whole lot of people buy them locally so I just do not get that.

I don't buy a tool thinking its going to break so I can go and get a loaner. It's funny but other than a milwuakee sawzall 7 years ago, I have only ever had Festools(kapex) go bad on me and I have A LOT of tools. When I buy a tool I do not want to ever see the seller again unless I am buying more new tools, not in for repairs. So I do not base my buying decisions on that either.

What happened to the day of buying a Milwaukee drill and giving it to your kid 20 years later? That is what I think you should get from a Festool purchase and if I did not think that I would not buy the Festools. I have had no problems with anything Festool, except the quality control on the Kapex, other than that I do not see me ever having to get repair work done on my Festools.

My quality control remark is also based on some getting tools that are perfect and others having to return over and over for repair. I put that under quality control. Example:  If some of the Dominoes are perfect and need no adjustments and other Dominoes do, it a Q.C. issue.

 

[Steve Jones]

nickao makes a valid point. His experience has proven the value of Festools for him the way he buys them (on line). Personally I've had a couple of Festools die on me (Domino and Jig saw) (well the jig saw just got a bent base) but in both cases I took the tools back to Woodcraft and they handed me their demo to use until mine came back. I can't put a price on the value of that service, I make my living with these tools and I need every one of them available every day.

On the other hand, I used to own several routers (PC, Bosch, Even Craftsman) since buying the OF1400 I sold all the others except one large one that lives in the router table, I found it quicker to set up the 1400 for whatever job is next, with the excellent dust control (not to mention the other features) I simply reach for the 1400 first - every time, I can't afford to own tools that sit and collect dust.

I made a post here months ago about how that OF1400 turned out to be a lot cheaper than I expected, because it caused me to decide to dump (sell off) several other routers, I think my investment in the 1400 ended up about $100.00 (including accessories).

Nope, I still don't think Festools are expensive, if you use tools for a living they are cheaper in so many ways.

 

[Jimhart]

And I hope KMart starts selling Rolex so I can get a better watch cheap. It's those darn jewelry stores and their markup that are resposible for the high prices of those watches. Put those watches into mass production, sell them through the high volume, low-price low-margin channel and I'll buy one.

Lexus didn't launch Toyota. toyota has been around for 70 years. They launched Lexus in 1989 because they sensed there was a market for people who would pay more for a higher quality vehicle. They also realized it needed to be re-branded if it were to establish a different value proposition than their core product. This is the opposite of what you're proposing.

I got a kick out of the new Dewalt plunge saw launch. I think there was a lot of people who thought a quality plunge saw could be sold for quite a bit less than festool was charging, that festool was overcharging based on brand. I wonder how many '$500 circular saws' Dewalt is going to sell?

There is no shortage of vendors filling the big box pipeline with tools of various quality and pricepoints.  If you don't think Festools innovation and quality are worth the price difference, there are plenty of options out there for you. If you're waiting to buy a Lexus for the price of a Toyota, I think it will be a long wait.

Jim

 

[nickao]

Jim I agree with everything you said  EXCEPT, do not knock my little DeWalt 618 plunge routers  I love them!

Steve I think the festools are good for hobbyist and pro a like if they have the budget any hobbyist should go Festool.

Sorry to hear about your probs with the tools. 

 

[Jimhart]

Nick,

No knock of Dewalt intended. I was hoping to make 2 points; apparently it costs more than one might think to produce a quality track saw and it will be interesting to see how a brand that has been selling 'circular saws' for $100 to $150 tops for corded models will do selling a $475 saw. Kind of like Toyota introducing a $45,000 coupe.

Jim