New line of Festool products at Home Depot...

[Dave Ronyak]

Marrt,

This thread you started has proven to be a hot button of sorts.  I have been an avid DIYer for 40+ years, "forced" into it by my wise Dad (prefessional mechanic) who made me work alone on my motorcycle and car if I wanted them to run at their best.  He expected me to read the manuals and figure out what to do myself.  He would only come to my rescue after I was totally stumped and had tried for hours.  Throughout that 40 years I have repeatedly learned through experience that many cheaper tools simply will not do the job as well and at times maybe not at all.  This can be due to poor design, poor manufacturing quality, etc.   Like router accessories that don't align when fitted, fences that aren't machined square, drill chucks that slip.  You will not be able to remove the transmission output yoke with a Craftsman socket; it won't fit in the tight space.  But a quality German socket will.  I don't need or want these frustrations when I want to work on my projects.  Life is too short for cheap, poorly made tools.

The analogy to Toyota's Lexus division is not adequate.  Lexus has nailed quality control, but not necessarily product design, and especially driving dynamics.  Lexus is still trying to figure out how BMW does what it does so well, and so are the rest of the automotive companies.  I also note those who come closest also happen to be German.  I think a far better analogy would be to compare Festool to a combination of the best of Lexus and BMW (who could learn a few things about QC from Lexus).   How a product handles and responds to user inputs is also important.  Most Lexus products isolate the  driver from the driving experience.

I hope that Festool never succumbs to the mass marketing philosophy that has lured other brands into trading sales volume (in the hope of increased revenue and profit) for price and quality, thus diminishing or destroying the prior well-earned reputation of their respective brand names.  Black & Decker used to make quality electric hand tools, w-a-a--a-y back in time.  DeWalt used to make great radial arm saws; no Sears Craftsman saw could compare.  But who among Festool users wants either DeWalt or B&D tools today compared to Festool?  I certainly don't, although I realize there are specific product exceptions within any brand.  I want Festool to continue to concentrate on quality and customer support and service, and to plow much of their revenue back into development of improved products and new products addressing needs in the trades they now serve.

An open market will take care of itself over a long run of time.  Purchasers who are free to choose whatever tools they please will determine which products sell and at what price.  If the prices of Festool products are set too high, then competitors will enter their market, except where patented features prevent them, and Festool will have to lower its prices or offer something perceived by the customer to justify the difference.  No matter where Festool sets their prices, they have no control over DeWalt, Mafell, Makita and others bringing track saws to market at whatever prices these competitors choose.   Competitors are free to add specialty chucks to their drills if they want to, and make portable tables to compete with MFTs, etc.

At first, I thought the Festool CT vacuums and Boom Arm overly high priced, but have come to change my mind.  I also have a Fein Turbo II and a Craftsman vac.  If you can find another vacuum and Boom Arm equivalent at a lower price, buy it.  If not create a product and put it on the market at what you think is a proper and fair price.  If not, buy a Festool CT vacuum and Boom Arm -- they work as advertised, unlike many other companies's products.  I recommend installing a mini-cyclone between your CT and end of the Boom Arm hose.

Dave R.

 

[nickao]

I think DeWalt can do it if the quality is there. DeWalt once had a rep for quality and then lost it and I think they may be coming back. Only time will tell.

There was a time DeWalts portable table saw and miter slider were one of the best out there and both did cost over 500.00. The rack and pinion on their little table saw fence is still pretty cool. They made a step backward especially with their slider, hopefully they pull out of it I always liked Yellow and Black. 

The topic is a hot button, but a nice thread is coming of it!

 

[Jesus Aleman]

martt.  I suggest you check out the European websites for PC and Dewalt.   Most of their circular saws have dust collection and these are exactly the same models as you find in the US.  Unfortunately no dust collection in the US.  You will also notice that these tools are more expensive in Europe compared to the US.  I live in Canada.  Almost everything is cheaper in the US compared to other countries including Festool.  It is the nature of the market.  

I am a hobbyist and had a tough time justifying Festool.  Ultimately dust sensitivity, lack of space, and disapointment with cheaper low quality tools drove me to Festool.  This doesn't mean that Festool is the only solution either, but as a hobbyist the only way to justify them is as a long term investment.  

JGA.

 

[nickao]

Yes DeWalt needs to get the better tools here in the US. It seems everyone else gets their good stuff. I look online and DeWalt has a few things not offered here that make me drool.

The US has massive buying power which must factor in to Festools pricing, well in better times the potential for it anyway.

 

[Notorious T.O.D.]

Like with so many things in life, for maybe 95% of the people price is a top two or three consideration. If not number one...
In my view that is too bad because people end up wasting money on items of lesser quality that have to be replaced more often.
Yet it is our reality and why we have the big box stores and fast food joints.

Best,
Todd

 

[Jim Becker]

Marrt, perhaps Festool isn't for you. And that's ok. There are so many choices!

BTW, until recently, they did sell direct in addition to the dealer network. But the type of buyers they have place great value on the customer service they get from their Festool dealers. My Festool dealer will get my business as long as he chooses to be in business, even if there was a small premium to pay. But there isn't with the (perfectly legal) pricing policies in place.

 

[wnagle]

Marrt,

"I once owned a BMW.  But I bought it for emotional reasons, not logical.  A car tends to "project" an image related to how you want to be seen by others."

I drive my RO 150 to work...talk about image... anyone gets in my way I grind off there hubcaps...I'm never late... best 375.00 I ever spent! ;D

 

[nickao]

I think that concept applies to tools as well.

I know a guy that has the best machinery money can buy and has all the Festools. I have never seen him make one thing!

To look at his shop you would think he has to be a pro! He gets respect form woodworkers, but he actually knows very little.

 

[marrt]

And I hope KMart starts selling Rolex so I can get a better watch cheap.

A Rolex is a luxury item.  No one can "logically" justify spending that much money for a watch (IMHO).  You're paying to impress your friends...not tell time better.  Nothing at all wrong with that...it's just not what I'm talking about here.

They launched Lexus in 1989 because they sensed there was a market for people who would pay more for a higher quality vehicle.

Correct.  My only point is that's it's possible for a company to have a high end product and a mainstream product that are both good. 

I think DeWalt can do it if the quality is there.

I definitely think DeWalt is the most likely mainstream brand to offer some of the "Festool-like" features.  I realize they will never really compete with Festool (I get the feeling that most people who buy Festool wouldn't be caught dead with a B&D product).  But perhaps they could offer some improvements over what's commonly available.  They've been innovative in the past.  Their new Lion technology is fantastic...the best out there in my opinion (I'm strictly talking about the battery technology...not the tools).  I've heard their approach to dust control on routers isn't bad.  If the would bring over some of the other tools from Europe with better dust control, introduce an MFT (with integrated vacuum clamp or some other cool feature) and adopt more of a systems approach, then maybe they could serve as an option for many users.

Like with so many things in life, for maybe 95% of the people price is a top two or three consideration.

There's been some very interesting research lately on how consumers determine "a fair price" for a new product.  It turns out that most pricing evaluation is done by comparing the product to its nearest substitute (usually a competitor).  For example, the price of the $800 vacuum with boom arm seems outrageous compared to a $99 Ridgid with higher CFM's and available HEPA.  I realize the Ridgid is not in the same class as the Festool, but most consumers have a difficult time believing the Festool is 8x better.

That said, I recently spent $5K to install three garage doors on my new shop.  This is what "decent" garage doors cost, so it didn't seem unreasonable.  However, compared to 3 garage doors, $5K spent on Festool doesn't seem too bad I guess.

 

[Notorious T.O.D.]

Well, money does not necessarily correspond to talent...reminds me of going golfing at an expensive country club.  There are lots of people there that have money but just because they have money does not mean they are good or talented golfers.  We all know that there are some woodworkers whose project is the shop itself and I fall into that category to some extent.  Many of the best things I have built have been for others but they have also allowed me to fund the tools that I like and take pride in owning.  There are also woodworkers who can build a blockfront kneehole desk with a steak knife and an old hacksaw blade. Most of the masterpieces of woodworking were built with sweat and hand tools and without Festools or a Unisaw.  But those old masters probably tried to use the best tools that they could find, that would save them time and make them money as they were trying to put food on the table and keep a roof over their heads.  In many ways I think that is the mentality that the workers at Festool are still using in developing their line of tools.

Best,
Todd

 

[nickao]

"But those old masters probably tried to use the best tools that they could find, that would save them time and make them money as they were trying to put food on the table and keep a roof over their heads".

Oh yeah, if the old guys(pre small power tool) could have used the power tools they would of.

I know a lot of guys love the hand planes and they are neat, but don't think for a minute the old timers would not have hung them up if they could have. Time was just as important then as now and most furniture makers then did it for a living not a hobby.

 

[Jimhart]

And I hope KMart starts selling Rolex so I can get a better watch cheap.

A Rolex is a luxury item.  No one can "logically" justify spending that much money for a watch (IMHO).  You're paying to impress your friends...not tell time better.  Nothing at all wrong with that...it's just not what I'm talking about here.

In your original post, you said "Festool is not worth twice Bosch" or something to that effect. Does this not by definition imply that Festool is a luxury item; something whose value is not directly tied to utility? As in; " A Rolex is a luxury item.  No one can "logically" justify spending that much money for a watch (IMHO). Drop in the name of any Festool product where you say 'watch.'

They launched Lexus in 1989 because they sensed there was a market for people who would pay more for a higher quality vehicle.

Correct.  My only point is that's it's possible for a company to have a high end product and a mainstream product that are both good. 

The contradiction is that Toyota knew they needed to create another brand, essentially another company. Companies are better able to go upstream than down without killing the core.

I think DeWalt can do it if the quality is there.

I definitely think DeWalt is the most likely mainstream brand to offer some of the "Festool-like" features.  I realize they will never really compete with Festool (I get the feeling that most people who buy Festool wouldn't be caught dead with a B&D product).  But perhaps they could offer some improvements over what's commonly available.  They've been innovative in the past.  Their new Lion technology is fantastic...the best out there in my opinion (I'm strictly talking about the battery technology...not the tools).  I've heard their approach to dust control on routers isn't bad.  If the would bring over some of the other tools from Europe with better dust control, introduce an MFT (with integrated vacuum clamp or some other cool feature) and adopt more of a systems approach, then maybe they could serve as an option for many users.

How do feel about DeWalts first attempt at a Festool-like product, the track saw, coming out at pretty much the same price as Festool?

Like with so many things in life, for maybe 95% of the people price is a top two or three consideration.

There's been some very interesting research lately on how consumers determine "a fair price" for a new product.  It turns out that most pricing evaluation is done by comparing the product to its nearest substitute (usually a competitor).  For example, the price of the $800 vacuum with boom arm seems outrageous compared to a $99 Ridgid with higher CFM's and available HEPA.  I realize the Ridgid is not in the same class as the Festool, but most consumers have a difficult time believing the Festool is 8x better.

That said, I recently spent $5K to install three garage doors on my new shop.  This is what "decent" garage doors cost, so it didn't seem unreasonable.  However, compared to 3 garage doors, $5K spent on Festool doesn't seem too bad I guess.

 

[marrt]

Rolex...Does this not by definition imply that Festool is a luxury item

Not in my opinion.  The main purpose of a watch is to tell time.  With today's technology, a Rolex does not do this any better than a Timex.  Therefore, paying more for a Rolex means the owner is probably more interested in using it as a status symbol than to determine the time of day.  If they just wanted the best watch possible, they'd buy an Omega anyway.  This isn't true with Festool.  Festool actually is better than most of the competition (systems approach, products the competition does not have, effective dust protection, etc...).  There's good logical reasons to want Festool.

The contradiction is that Toyota knew they needed to create another brand

I recommended this in my first post...that Festool create a sub-brand (another brand).

Companies are better able to go upstream than down without killing the core.

This is true. 

How do feel about DeWalts first attempt at a Festool-like product, the track saw, coming out at pretty much the same price as Festool?

Allow me to answer with a question...How many DeWalt tools do you see selling at their list price?  Even if they are serious about launching at this price, let's see where they are in six months.

 

[Woodenfish]

While working, I like listening to radio. One day I came across some financial talk show guru type guy Ric Edelman. Perhaps some of you may have tuned into his syndicated show too. Ric said as part of his advice that day something about buying a watch. Paraphrasing, he said it was either better to buy that expensive Rolex or the cheap $25 Timex versus some $500 watch or better yet just ask somebody what time it was.

When it comes to woodworking tools, I have found very few brands that hold their value as well as Festool, just don't ask to borrow mine or look for me to sell them either.

 

[mastercabman]

The contradiction is that Toyota knew they needed to create another brand

I recommended this in my first post...that Festool create a sub-brand (another brand).

What for?    If they do,what's going to happen to Festool tools?   

 

[bill-e]

Another thing that annoys me regarding this type of discussion is the insistence of people to to compare tools, or anything else, by using multiplication.

Virtually no item that is better than another like item, is better (or worse) in multiples of the price the item to which it is being compared.  I think that is a foolish comparison.

Additionally, whether in manufacturing or coding, making the product "good" costs X, making the product the "best" costs X+n and n is usually a whole boatload of money.

If sander A is better than sander B, then what I have to determine is what value those differences are to me.  Is the dust extraction, smoothness, feel and perceived quality of sander A worth $100 more to me or not.

OK, my rant is over too  

 

[nickao]

Bill that is not a rant, but  rational comments regarding your opinions.

 

[Bob Marino]

This is a good thread!
I was very hesitant about posting a reply because I am a Festool dealer, and as such, am not the most "objective" person, but do want to say a few things. Actually, I want o say waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more than that, ;D but will stick to a few points.
Without getting into specifics, the margins on tools for dealers are nowhere, and I mean nowhere near, 40-50%.
Secondly, as Jim B mentioned, Festool used to sell directly to customers and has moved away from that initial sales model they had for their first 10 or so years here. That was and is, part of their "plan." Ideally, they want their dealers to stock, ship and be the front line/major knowledge base for/with the customers. Festool has decided on quality, not price, as a their focus and as such, is willing to forgo not being "all things to all people". As a family owned business, they just look long term, most other businesses don't. This thinking/model has worked for them in Europe, and they think it will work here.
IMHO,  place like HD or the other Big Boxes, don't have the personnel qualified/trained/enthusiastic enough to explain to a customer why tool A is worth (or costs more than) the extra $$ over tool B.

Bob

 

[nickao]

Bob don't ever not post because you are a dealer, you are a woodworker, correct? You have been here long enough for us know you are a straight shooter.

"IMHO,  place like HD or the other Big Boxes, don't have the personnel qualified/trained/enthusiastic enough to explain to a customer why tool A is worth (or costs more than) the extra $$ over tool B".

That's the understatement of the year.

 

[bill-e]

Bob don't ever not post because you are a dealer, you are a woodworker, correct? You have been here long enough for us know you are a straight shooter.

"IMHO,  place like HD or the other Big Boxes, don't have the personnel qualified/trained/enthusiastic enough to explain to a customer why tool A is worth (or costs more than) the extra $$ over tool B".

That's the understatement of the year.

I'd argue (and have) that only the person buying the tool can determine "value" since value is totally individually subjective.  Not only does the tool's features affect everyone differently but what a dollar is worth differs from person to person.