New line of Festool products at Home Depot...

[nickao]

Bill a person with no experience has to have trust in the salesman to help determine value, I think that is Bobs point.

Only an experienced woodworker that has used a particular tool can have an opinion or be able to recognize value, especially before they purchase or even use the tool.

Many have never used the tools they purchase let alone many different brands so how can they possibly know the value. I propose they can not and that is why good salesman with  experience using the tools are needed.

 

[bill-e]

Nick,

I have to disagree with you on this.  The dealer can explain the features and their uses, but he cannot determine value.  He can say that it will be a good feature to have, but he has no insight into what a dollar means to that individual.  Do you, or Bob, know how I value my time as a hobbyist?  Do you know what $100 means to me?  If the answer to those two questions is no, then how can you put a value on the extra features?

To some people value is simple multiplication, to others value doesn't even matter....so what's the value?

 

[nickao]

As far as money of course you are correct.

But no one can determine true value between two things without trying the two things. So you must trust a person who has tried the two things.

The typical guy that says the Festools are to much and they have no value are 99% of the time the guys who never tried the tools! What are they basing their values on? Their perception based on price, but maybe not what the tool actually does.

I myself used to laugh at a 450.00 sander saying no was it was worth it. You know what, I tried it once on the 30 day and changed my tune and fast. Now the 450.00 was a value for me. I needed to see what the tool could do to price its value before I made my decision.

I am only saying value is different between people but it is very difficult to know the value of something  when you have not tried it. So many have to put their trust in the person that has tried it and help them decide the value to them.
Festool junkie has straight out told me not to by certain tools becasue he knew my values and what I needed the tools for, someone at HD could never had given me that insight that for me the tool probably had no value.

 

[bill-e]

Nick,

I think that this thread is a perfect example of my point.  The OP thinks Festool's are not worth the money.  It's not because he's poor, he was ready to plop down $800 on the vac but to him, for all his own reasons, the Festool vac is not worth (value) $800.

I, on the other hand think it is even though the OP may make more money than me and most likely does more woodworking than me and probably needs it more than me.  So where's the sense in that?  It's just personal.

So I really think that a good dealer should provide all the information to allow the customer to make the judgment on value. 

 

[bill-e]

nick, to respond to the edit you made while I was posting.

My point is, Why was the $450 sander worth it to you and what makes you think that I would spend $450 for the same reasons?  I might just be attracted to black and green

 

[robtonya]

I'll have to add about the price fixing. I like that I can go to any dealer and I don't have to catch a "crazy Larry going out of business" sale. I believe that is what maintains the higher value. I get the same satisfaction when I use my Toyota purchase benefit. I can go to participating dealers and get the same price from each dealer. They do something different with their Scion brand though. I haven't checked, but I was told that the price is the same no matter which Scion dealer you go to, know matter who you are.

 

[Bob Marino]

Bob don't ever not post because you are a dealer, you are a woodworker, correct? You have been here long enough for us know you are a straight shooter.

"IMHO,  place like HD or the other Big Boxes, don't have the personnel qualified/trained/enthusiastic enough to explain to a customer why tool A is worth (or costs more than) the extra $$ over tool B".

That's the understatement of the year.

Thanks Nick,

Yes, I am a hobbyist woodworker, emphasis on hobbyist! However, since the introduction of the Domino last year, my shipping responsibilities have rendered my "shop" into a shipping station, severely limiting my woodworking projects. As of January 11 (hopefully ;D) most of my shipping will be done by a more centrally located, faster/better Fulfillment House, allowing me more time for customer service as well as woodworking - I am soooooooooooooo looking forward to that!

As an aside, last week myself and my wife took a walk through a neighboring town (Montclair, NJ) and stopped into a coffee/tea store. I asked the girl behind the counter what was the difference in their green tea from Japan and their more generic (and less $$) green tea. She said (while holding her cell phone to her ear, still on a call) "Oh, no difference really".
I bought the more generic green tea and said to my wife, she's obviously not the owner, is "filling in" and is either unknowledgable and/or disinterested in the sale.
Continuing our walk, right around the corner was a new, high end, luxury spa facility. My wife had some questions regarding the cosmetic products and services, particularly the "wellness" services. The young lady behind the counter said that she was new to the spa, was not sure and called someone from the office to help us - perfectly fair and reasonable.
Long story short, this person, polite though she was, was unable to answer anything more than the most basic of questions and had not more than an ounce of information as to what any of the Wellness programs entailed, let alone why anyone would/should spend upwards of 2k on such a program. Most importantly, she did not even offer to have someone more qualified give my wife a call to better explain what's what. After that short experience, my wife is now more than quite content in treating herself (every so many months) and remaining at, her current facility.
Would either of us go there again, spend heavy k on items/services not properly expained? I DON'T THINK SO!
Marrt, get my point? Service matters.

Bob

 

[nickao]

nick, to respond to the edit you made while I was posting.

My point is, Why was the $450 sander worth it to you and what makes you think that I would spend $450 for the same reasons?  I might just be attracted to black and green

The reason for me is SPEED.

Because of the way I work I need to sand quickly.

I used to make every single individual piece of the inlay exactly the same thickness and exactly flush and it was a nightmare fitting in 300 pieces on a 36" piece that perfectly.

I then decided heck I will just glue all the pieces and then run the items through the drum sander, not a big deal. Perfect!

BUT sometimes the inlay is to big for the drum sander, I was sitting there with my Porter Cable 6" sander for literally 4 hours to get a 46" inlay flat. Like I said I was paying no attention the the thicknesses. Well that took forever. Back to being really careful and adding two hours to the assembly.

Sometimes when the inlay did fit in the drum sander the lines against the grain were so bad it took  almost an hour with the 6" PC to get it sanded correctly.

One last try was to check out some other sanders, I came upon the Rotex. I got the Rotex, guess what I blasted the 36" flat and smooth in 12 minutes flat! The sanding lines from the drum sander in 3 minutes! And I am NOT kidding.

I since have discovered the Bosch 1250 does the job just as as well and if I need another I would go that route becasue I am really limited on funds right now.

But if you figure two inlays a week, the Rotex itself gave me 8 hours a week extra that I once spent sanding  or meticulously assembling.

I saw the value of the sander!

BUT if you do not need to take massive amounts of  material evenly, then the value for you is totally different.

If the guy at Woodcraft would have said "the Rotex will blast through that problem" instead of saying "oh that Rotex is overpriced get the 6" Porter Cable" I would have had the Rotex a year sooner. Because I was low on money the salesman was using only the cost as the issue, placing the same value on the sanders when in fact the Rotex , though initially more would have saved me 52 weeks times 8 hours of time!

I think someone who actually did woodworking and new where I was coming from would have said the heck with price it will pay for itself in a few months. Which is what I will tell anyone that needs to sand a huge amount of rough or uneven lumber all the time.

I do not think you would spend 450.00 for the same reasons, but if you were in my situation you would be wise to do so if you value time over money, or is time money? 

A guy that knew what the heck he was talking about(salesman) could have saved me a lot of heartache!

 

[Dave Ronyak]

Nick,

You are certainly right to point out that time is money, not just for the pros like yourself.  No one can buy back time at any price.  Time is important for DIYers, hobbists, and retirees, too.

The value judgment criteria for any type of product will be different for different people.  Different people have different requirements and expectations.  That is why so many brands and products exist with different quality, features and price points.

What price does a person put on the health and safety benefits provided by Festool products?  Ask anyone who has lost a finger, or who is suffering lung disease.  Does HD or Lowe's sell any vacuum machines with HEPA, that are quiet, variable speed, anti-static and guaranteed 4 years?

Dave R.

 

[nickao]

Point taken.

Dust collection is just another aspect that contributes to the value of a tool for many people and arguably more important than time. 

Just a note, the dust collection is fantastic on all the Festool sanders I have used.

 

[r cash]

Hi  All
what a great thread . For me price point > vis a vis branding < For me is mute subject I own 13 routers only 3 festool the other spread over 3 brands
I need speed just as much as nickao my speed comes from not having to change set ups . I often have 4 to 7 routers set up for the same project the same day the same goes for sanding 4 shop vacs  3 set up for 3 machines time changing set ups cord changes . All add time the project . I am near 75 percent repeat client base half of those dont even ask for bids . When I first started down the festool slope all sandpaper tools accissiores all came by UPS 4 or 5 days from Reno  Nev  I am in Santa cruz CA .so if ran out some thing or another this sometimes added time . Bob m is  correct Festool has a longer view this is great from my point of view the gains made by Festool of market share and networking in the 10 years has only help me . dewalt delta powermatic which I am proud owner of many tools have not even come close . You have to drive at least you should enjoy the ride . The same is true with tools and the things we produce . I  do not see any advantage of race to the bottom for price over quality
Have a great day
ciao

 

[Woodenfish]

Remember a couple of years ago there was another European tool company who built themselves around customer service began selling at Home Depot?

WTF happened there?

 

[nickao]

What company give me a hint at least? The are more that one that I can think of.

 

[Notorious T.O.D.]

Nick,

The guy at Woodcraft was probably just treating you the way he treats most customers and letting you go to the less expensive solution to make the sale initially thinking that you were another of his 95 percent of customers who are mostly price sensitive. I have watched people agonize over whether or not to spend another $30 dollars on a midi lathe to the point of hardly being able to keep from butting into the deal and telling them what I think they should do.  What you are talking about is more of a consultive and educational approach to sales and I just don't find that you get that very much any more on much of anything.  If you watch many salespeople who do try to help you basically try to get you to talk about what you like or dislike or want and then let you lead yourself to the tool or product you seem to desire.

Unfortunately I know of several very good family owned woodworking shops that have gone out of business in the past 10 years because they cannot compete with the big box stores even with their knowledge and excellent service and prices nearly as good as the big box stores.  In each case contractors were really their bread and butter and the hobby woodworkers were just gravy.  I have also generally found at family owned businesses the more I have spent with them the better I get treated, but that is pretty logical too.  I am still waiting to meet that master electrician and plumber in Lowes or HD by the way...LOL.

I guess the other question I have for people is regarding the comparison of Festool to other tools.  Do sellers like Bob really get a lot of people calling him asking whether they should buy Festool vs B&D or Dewalt?  Or are most of the buyers people who have decided on Festool and are just trying to decide which particular Festool sander is best for a certain need they have now?

I also think the idea of the Festool System is somewhat foreign and misunderstood in the US.  I don't think the typical US woodworker thinks in terms of a System but rather in specific functions which must be accomplished in some sort of order.  When I first started woodoworking back in the mid 80s there was a very strong push to sell the Shopsmith machines. So as I started I looked at the Shopsmith demos quite a few times and even talked to some local owners.  In the end though I elected to start with relatively cheap yet functional Sears tools to cover the functions of table saw, jointer, drill press, lathe and bandsaw.
I realized that to actually build things having all these capabilities would be most helpful and even though the Shopsmith was probably a superior machine in quality and capability I chose to go with the Sears tool and if things worked out start replacing them with better quality Delta tools in a few years as time and money allowed.  I reasoned that even after use I could get 50-75 percent of my investment back out of the Sears tools because the price point was low enough that the demand was pretty strong for these tools used.  The Shopsmith, I decided, was a great solution if your space was very very limited, but I kept seeing myself in the middle of drilling some part and having to use the table saw to cut another piece or trim something and having to take the time to change functions...wasted time vs just stepping to the separate Sears saw from the Sears drill press.  To this day I still find the Shopsmith somewhat fascinating but I tend to see it as a nice drill press with some lathe capabilities rather than an end-all be-all tool.

Best,
Todd

 

[Woodenfish]

What company give me a hint at least? The are more that one that I can think of.

Hilti

 

[nickao]

You know the only Hilti I ever personally used was the gun for shooting plates into concrete when framing. I know they had a reputation for really tough tools, but I did not see many of any Hilti tools used where I worked.

I know I tried to get a circular saw that went on a guide rail once, but it was a hassle trying to get it at the time.

 

[Bob Marino]

[I guess the other question I have for people is regarding the comparison of Festool to other tools.  Do sellers like Bob really get a lot of people calling him asking whether they should buy Festool vs B&D or Dewalt?  Or are most of the buyers people who have decided on Festool and are just trying to decide which particular Festool sander is best for a certain need they have now?

Good question too! Most of my questions come from people fairly certain they want the Festool product and let me help them hone in on what their needs, projects and applications are. Yes, they ask me to compare the tools,, offer my opinion as to why the Fesstool ros is as good as it gets.
the Festool. You have to be knowledgable about he tools as well as the (potential) customer. What does he want to make, what are his projects, how much $$ is he willing to spend. Do I really want to sell that weekend warrior or elderly gent who just retired, a Rotex, if he will sand 3 picture frames a year, does he need to spend on Festool tools? Good question too! But my answer is usually no.

                                                                                                                                                                               
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[Overtime]

Virtually none of the tools sold via chain stores are of the quality that they used to be and that is because they are not competing on quality and service, but simply on price....The "Walmartization" of America.

What needs to be understood about mass marketers such as Home Depot, Lowes, Walmart, etc., is that they require their vendors to meet certain specifications and price points. I seriously doubt that a company like Festool would ever agree to make the kind of changes to products to meet those  requirements. And that's good, IMHO.

This is how I feel about it also.
Imagine the logistical nightmare for Festool to maintain Two seperate tool lines. Two different warrantee policies, etc.  I see no reason for Festool to water down the product line in any way ( even minimum changes like colors etc ) as it would lessen the brand value that has been carefully built to what it is today.
  Then some long time professional buyers would feel shortchanged when they find that Festool sells the same router in red for 20% less at walmart. Not good for a customer base that has been Festool's bread and butter.

Those who desire quality in retail and specialty goods of any kind know that it takes some effort from the consumer to seek out and find what they are looking for. High Quality, durability, and safety are things that are on the decline in Borgs and large retail outlets.

Caveat emptor 

 

 

[peter halle]

Part of the the dollars that I spend for my Festools is allocated in reality and also in my mind is for the dealer network as well as for the service network behind the scenes that is there if I ever need it.  Anyone can search this forum and find that the customer service and repair side - at least here in america - has been held in high regard.  That comes at a price.  I don't recall many such comments made about many of the less expensive tools out there.  The majority of the complaints heard here about any tools and the manner in which the  corrective actions have been taken have resulted from the manufacturer trying to make the tolerances on a part too precise and that causing problems in some machines.  But once that was discovered, there was never a widespread fear of would that be rectified or was the customer going to get screwed in the end.  On the sales end - I hope that the dealers get compensated well for doing a job well.  Otherwise you will not have long term dealers and loose valuable knowledge and experiences thatdo make the difference.

Consistency of product is another part of the dollars that I spend for Festools.  I make my living with my hands and with tools.  My customers pay me a fee to provide products and services for them.  Part of the reason that they use me is that I do what I am expected to do for the price that is agreed upon - consistently.  Most of my clients are repeat clients.  Am the the cheapest guy in town based on fees paid?  Heck no - and I am proud of that.  But do I do what I say I'm going to do when I say I going to do it to their satisfaction at a cost that is palatable to both parties.  I can't afford to get a bad reputation.  I expect the same thing from my tools - do what the manufacturer claimed that you can do.  I'll pay extra for that because in the long run it means less hassle for me and less cost.

Innovation and research dollars are part of the dollars I spend.  Made a track saw 45 years ago.  Been making tools for 80 years.  Family owned or controlled.  Sticks to what they do best.  Doesn't try to be everything to everybody.  I'll pay for that - GLADLY.  Although some of their tools are manufactured or designed by other companies, those companies are of the same mindset - quality, quality, quality.

For Festool to introduce a less expensive brand would mean that they would in essence be selling their name to be placed on another line of tools.  I would not spend my dollars for that. 

Peter

 

[Eli]

I think that concept applies to tools as well.

I know a guy that has the best machinery money can buy and has all the Festools. I have never seen him make one thing!

To look at his shop you would think he has to be a pro! He gets respect form woodworkers, but he actually knows very little.

HEY! I resemble that remark  ;D 

It's very common for guys I work with to tell me, "oh I don't need xxx Festool, this thingy right here does a great job" and show me some twenty YO router or sander or something. It doesn't bother me a bit what they think, they have talked themselves out of a fantastic experience. For me it's a joy to use the tools and if that were all, they'd be worth every penny for that alone. But they are also faster to use, pack more quickly, are easier to keep organized, and I swear I make less waste using them. And why is it bad to have a tool that is a status symbol for it's quality and longevity? Craftsmen good or bad can be judged by the state of their tools. My tools have never looked this good.

It's a crap idea to have Festool in any large retailer. They'd be swamped with complaints in the first week. Joe sixpack doesn't give a crap about his tools, and that's why g@d made Ryobi. And some of those tools work great, but they are unquestionably disposable.