thinking about a kapex, your thoughts?

[Holmz]

do people  understand how modern electrical breakers work  A 15 amp breaker does not limit power to 15 amps but shuts off if the draw is above 15 amps. So if a kapex plugged into a ct plugged into a 15 amp breaker draws more than 15 amps the breaker will pop, it will not continually supply 15 amps even though the appliances try to draw more. My dewalt table saws will sometimes trip a 15 amp breaker on start up and if the table saw is plugged into a ct and a 20 amp breaker it will trip the breaker if anything else is hooked up.The max draw of a kapex is 13 amps. The ct's max draw is similar. But the ct's would only max out under load, a clog or full bag. Am I missing something ?  On a side note do the festool ct's need pure sine wave like their tools. Can I run the ct's on the new dealt flex volt battery generator ?

As they seem to fail on regular power, I am not sure the deWalt sine-wave would magically fix it, unless you put a deWalt motor on the Kapex.

And power cleanness seems to be mostly a smoke and mirror distraction from marketing as "alternative-facts"... basically it is "total BS"..., and when compared to working Bosch, deWalt, Makita ...

There is still some possibly of effect on the speed Control, but that seems to be a circuit discussion/effect rather than wires/armature/etc going off to become smoke.

The discussion about the current (non) limiting and circuit breaker 101 is great

 

[jeh]

I would not over analyze it. Both are great saws so you can't go wrong. The question is whether or not the massive amount of extra money is worth the negligible increase in accuracy.

Also breakers have margins. A 15-amp breaker will not kick off at 15-amps the instant it is exceeded. There are other variables involved including heat and design margin. A little bit of breathing room above the rated amperage prevents tripping when motors startup where demand could exceed 15-amps (or the rating of the breaker) for a few seconds. That said you should just go with 20-amp breakers and wire and avoid giving any though to whether or not a circuit will overloaded and the breaker will trip. A 15-amp setup should have a 20-amp breaker.

 

[Bohdan]

It could be that the 15 amp wiring on the 15 amp breaker is causing a voltage drop at full load that doesn't happen with a 20 amp breaker with 20 amp wiring and the motor not getting up to full speed tries to draw even more current.

A valuable test, if someone could do it, would be to put a voltmeter on the circuit and read the voltage drop at full load, doing a heavy cut, in a 15 and 20 amp circuit.

It may also be that the earlier faulty sockets on the CTs (the ones that allowed the plug to fall out) were causing a voltage drop.

 

[glass1]

I was not planning on running the kapex on the flex volt  just the ct and other tools like other miter boxes and table saws and the makita plunge saw. the question about the battery generator is not about kapex burnout 

 

[glass1]

voltage drop on house breakers ? they are simple devices that do not limit voltage, they trip when a certain voltage is exceeded.

 

[unixisgoodforyou]

voltage drop on house breakers ? they are simple devices that do not limit voltage, they trip when a certain voltage is exceeded.

The operative words were "15A wiring" (on a 15A breaker) vs "20A wiring".  All wiring has a voltage drop.  It is more noticeable on thinner gauge wiring (the 15A wiring, in this case).

It isn't the breakers that are limiting the amperage.
RWW

 

[Holmz]

voltage drop on house breakers ? they are simple devices that do not limit voltage, they trip when a certain voltage is exceeded.

The operative words were "15A wiring" (on a 15A breaker) vs "20A wiring".  All wiring has a voltage drop.  It is more noticeable on thinner gauge wiring (the 15A wiring, in this case).

It isn't the breakers that are limiting the amperage.
RWW

^Exactly^

One could imaging a test bench with 1/2 dozen+ motors being cycled, each with a different input voltage and running them for months automatically, or until the smoke detector stops the test.
And/or maybe some test for orthogonal (non axial) loads if the failure is some flexing of the motor shaft...
Etc.

Of course one would need some motors laying around, like they probably have at the FT/HQ.

 

[antss]

Peter- I'll bet the mothership is happy that you're eager to jump in a deflect the spotlight, but unfortunately for all of us the I don't think the answer to Kapex's woes is simple.  Because if it was , logically a co. like festool would have already solved the riddle.

I sure wish someone from Festool would officially speak or comment on when it would be preferable for us to plug the Kapex or another high current using Festool directly into the wall on a separate circuit instead of thorough the vac.    It seems to me that it would be better to be proactive in these situations rather than smoke a motor and send it in to Festool to then be told " in your situation , maybe you should............"

Is that too much to ask for ? 

Perhaps they could also chime in definitively on what glass1 brought up. Namely, whether the CT's limit the power available to the tool socket.  And was the available current changed when the 26/36 generation replaced the 22/33 version that had the 20amp plugs on them ?

 

[Cheese]

I solved this whole confusing vac issue by using...a Fein Turbo II as a dedicated vac for the Kapex. Throw on a short 30 something mm hose, plug the Fein & Kapex into a 20 amp service and let it buck.

The CT 22 comes with a 20 amp plug, however it also admonishes on the internal receptacle that it should only be connected to equipment that consumes an additional 10 amps.

The Fein specifies 2000 watts maximum for its receptacle. That's almost 17 amps.

So...the Fein shakes hands with the Kapex, the CT 22 shakes hands with the sanders, the MIDI lives a life of continuous movement between projects because it's so light and the stainless Milwaukee does all the heavy lifting.

 

[glass1]

Voltage drop. On 14 wire 100 ft at 15 amps of draw will be 120 volts in 112 bolts out
12 wire will be 120 in 115 out.

 

[Bohdan]

Voltage drop. On 14 wire 100 ft at 15 amps of draw will be 120 volts in 112 bolts out
12 wire will be 120 in 115 out.

Hardly looks like it would cause any problems as I wouldn't expect that the kapex would care about a loss of 5 volts.

 

[Stone Message]

Peter- I'll bet the mothership is happy that you're eager to jump in a deflect the spotlight, but unfortunately for all of us the I don't think the answer to Kapex's woes is simple.  Because if it was , logically a co. like festool would have already solved the riddle.

I sure wish someone from Festool would officially speak or comment on when it would be preferable for us to plug the Kapex or another high current using Festool directly into the wall on a separate circuit instead of thorough the vac.    It seems to me that it would be better to be proactive in these situations rather than smoke a motor and send it in to Festool to then be told " in your situation , maybe you should............"

Is that too much to ask for ? 

Perhaps they could also chime in definitively on what glass1 brought up. Namely, whether the CT's limit the power available to the tool socket.  And was the available current changed when the 26/36 generation replaced the 22/33 version that had the 20amp plugs on them ?

I do not care one bit what Festool think of what I write or what anyone else writes - that is called freedom of speech. Coupled with that is a sense of balance and fairness which I do care about particularly in this case.

In the UK the majority of domestic circuits for power sockets work in a loop. A group of sockets are connected in series with the last one in the run going back to the start point at the distribution box. That means that each socket has two routes to the distribution box. In my workshop my 13 amp sockets are grouped into 3 circuits of about 4 sockets each and they are each supported by a 30 amp breaker.

I appreciate that we run on 230 volts but watts are watts and so the design of the wiring has to take account of the load.

Perhaps someone could explain how a typical US garage might be wired.

(sorry forgot to add this before)

Low supply voltage can cause motors to overheat - so the supply, which is not in Festool's hands to control, is an important factor when anyone discusses motor failure.

Peter

 

[Holmz]

...
In the UK the majority of domestic circuits for power sockets work in a loop. A group of sockets are connected in series with the last one in the run going back to the start point at the distribution box. That means that each socket has two routes to the distribution box. In my workshop my 13 amp sockets are grouped into 3 circuits of about 4 sockets each and they are each supported by a 30 amp breaker.

I appreciate that we run on 230 volts but watts are watts and so the design of the wiring has to take account of the load.

Perhaps someone could explain how a typical US garage might be wired.
...

Usually a star, where they emanate out radial as single ended rays.

It is possible that older east coast could have different wiring, as the states are not entirely 'united'.

 

[Cheese]

Perhaps someone could explain how a typical US garage might be wired.

Peter brings up an interesting point. In the US, older houses tend to have detached garages with the electrical supply panel located in the house, while newer houses tend to have attached garages with the supply panel located in the garage.

In my case, the detached garage is located 44 feet away from the house. So the electrical exit point of the house to the electrical entry point of the garage is 44 feet, add in a 26 foot deep garage and then throw in a 25 foot extension cord.

So in the summer, when I use the TS 55 and the CT 22 outside, the combo is looking at 70 feet of 12 ga wire plus 25 feet of 14 ga wire and as many times as I've used this combo outside, I've never had an issue.

 

[Stone Message]

Yes, when \I created the supply for the workshop I had to connect to the mains distribution point at the far end of the house. That added to the drops and rises and the extra distance between the house and workshop meant about 70 feet all told. So I used 16 sq mm 2 core plus earth in the house and then a similar grade armoured from the house to the box in the workshop.

The supply rating is 60 amps. The lighting takes about 500 watts max but about 300 watts most of the time. In the winter I have a 2 kw oil filled heater. The most single drain with tools running is 4 kw. In rough terms my worst case draw is about 28 amps.

Perhaps there is a very clever person who can work out the voltage drop but I suspect it is not too bad at all.

My old 240 v 13 amp planer used to blow 13 amp fuses because of the start-up current but I managed to overcome that by making up a 15 amp fuse. Other than that I have had no supply problems at all.

One of my seriously professional woodworking friends has recently bought a 110v Kapex and he says that it would need the 5 kw transformer to run both it and his CT. It is about time the UK dropped the 110 v requirement - everyone else manages.

Peter

 

[Holmz]

I see the question now...
I had the garage hanging off the house and the 4 breakers of the 50A service.

I would start the table saw and the neon lights would go out, the saw would come up to speed and when the l
Ignites came on I would start sawing.
And the little birds would come off the wire as their toes were getting warm.

Replacing the 50A with a 200 I. Had fat wires to the garage that got buried.

 

[antss]

The typical garage in the U.S. is hard to pin down because as Holmz says - it's not very united. 

Even the national building code isn't really universal, and local jurisdictions which hold the power on what is allowed where you are can vary on what they choose to adopt as the rule.  Most use a national code as a framework but many places choose not to adopt certain sections (less stringent) or amend sections to be more stringent for a variety of reasons.   

What I see across the Southeast U.S. in most garages of production houses and many custom ones is:  one 15A lighting circuit, and one circuit for outlets that "typically" has one or two receptacles in the walls and one in the ceiling for a garage door opener.  Those circuits are 15A as much as they are 20A.  The only universal thing I see is that those circuits are GFCI protected. 

Our Euro and Australasian friends should keep in mind that these are all 120v circuits.  ( my local will not even allow 240v receptacles in a garage) and that a GFCI is an American device that doesn't really exist elsewhere.  Our "typical" garages are pretty light in the pants for those wanting to set up a shop in a place that's also used to park cars.

Now, for those that know they want to have a wood or metal shop in the garage , and are commissioning their own home - they will invariably have more power and receptacles added to the garage by the builder.  But usually, it is still only another circuit and they make sure both are 20a. Those that are serious, and are dedicating a space for a workshop, either attached or stand alone can have whatever they can dream up electrically and write a check for.  But, I don't consider that a typical garage for most people. 

So, I think typically most Americans have access to 2400 watts of power in their garages to run tools off of.

 

[Stone Message]

The typical garage in the U.S. is hard to pin down because as Holmz says - it's not very united. 

Even the national building code isn't really universal, and local jurisdictions which hold the power on what is allowed where you are can vary on what they choose to adopt as the rule.  Most use a national code as a framework but many places choose not to adopt certain sections (less stringent) or amend sections to be more stringent for a variety of reasons.   

What I see across the Southeast U.S. in most garages of production houses and many custom ones is:  one 15A lighting circuit, and one circuit for outlets that "typically" has one or two receptacles in the walls and one in the ceiling for a garage door opener.  Those circuits are 15A as much as they are 20A.  The only universal thing I see is that those circuits are GFCI protected. 

Our Euro and Australasian friends should keep in mind that these are all 120v circuits.  ( my local will not even allow 240v receptacles in a garage) and that a GFCI is an American device that doesn't really exist elsewhere.  Our "typical" garages are pretty light in the pants for those wanting to set up a shop in a place that's also used to park cars.

Now, for those that know they want to have a wood or metal shop in the garage , and are commissioning their own home - they will invariably have more power and receptacles added to the garage by the builder.  But usually, it is still only another circuit and they make sure both are 20a. Those that are serious, and are dedicating a space for a workshop, either attached or stand alone can have whatever they can dream up electrically and write a check for.  But, I don't consider that a typical garage for most people. 

So, I think typically most Americans have access to 2400 watts of power in their garages to run tools off of.

That is a very comprehensive reply - many thanks.

I suspect that "garage workshops" in the UK may not be much better off except that the minimum an outlet is likely to be is a single 13 amp socket which should be good for 3 kw.

Peter

 

[kevinculle]

If you are serious enough about woodworking to invest in Festool and other quality tools the typical garage is unlikely to be relevant as a shop.  For me it is a basement shop with a dedicated 240V 60A subpanel feeding from the main 240V 200A panel.  Each stationary tool and two dust collectors are on dedicated 240V circuits of appropriate amperage (typically 15A) and there are two 120V 20A circuits feeding general purpose wall outlets around the shop.

Of course if you are working away from your shop on site then the typical garage may be very relevant, so I always pack a heavy duty 120V 20A rated extension cord 75' (23m) long and insist on a 20A circuit to feed the CT26/Kapex combo.

 

[DrD]

I do envy Kevin for his ability to have a complete basement with all that power; I bet it is nice!  Anywhere down south from the Red River to the west and the Appalachian foothills to east, the water table is usually high enough to preclude a true basement.  I looked into building/having built an external workshop; just the foundation, floor, walls, roof was about $28,000.00.  Adding plumbing and electrical was another $10,000 (including a/c which is required where I live).  This compared to less than $10,000.00 to enclose and convert a ~465 sq ft garage.  I did the garage.

Now there is a problem with a garage shop which Kevin didn't mention.  Where I live most garages are constructed with the floor sloping from back (high) to front/door (low) which makes for a lot of shimming to level things out - still cheaper than a shop which was/is unaffordable.

Just pointing out not everyone who spends $$$ on Festool can have a nice basement or external shop, and the important point, as I'm hopeful that you'll agree, is to enjoy making things from wood/steel, using the finest tools available.

DrD