charley1968
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Well, how fun is it to adjust a laser on a burning Kapex, i arsk ye..
thinking about a kapex, your thoughts?
- Thread starter Bird
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charley1968 said:
Do you have a Kapex or have you ever tried one?
Peter
charley1968
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Naw, Peter, i was just joking..
Job and Knock
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The issue of crappy power supply on sites isn't that new. Years ago I had an Elu TGS flip-over saw (the early metallic blue one) and they were notorious for burning out starter/run capacitors - mainly because people used to run them on 3kVA transformers whereas the dealers and repairers recommended 5kVA with no other continuous load (e.g. lighting, etc) plugged into the transformer. I recently had to run a TS55 at the end of three extension cables and that was dropping in and out of protection mode because of the voltage drop. The solution is, obviously, to run with oversize (4mm or 6mm cross section) cables and/or to limit the length of cable run, but that isn't always "doable". Maybe garages in the USA have the same voltage drop problems we UK site workers have to contend withPeter Parfitt said:
Even though i like the Bosch sliding mechanism, i bought myself a Kapex with UG stand and extensions 5 years ago. Not everyone can shell out so much on a miter saw set up, but i see it as a life-time investment.
There's nothing on the market that beats this set up in terms of precision, portability and dust extraction. Kapex with UG stand sets up in less than a minute. Loading and unloading it into your truck is a simple without breaking a sweat. I used my Kapex daily for rough and finish framing... i even use it to cut aluminum extrusions. Some rough carpenters occasionally freak out when i bring it on site... they say i shouldn't use a quality saw like that for rough framing, that i might kill the motor, etc. So far i had no issues and if something hapens, i know i can easily order replacement parts.
Go and get a Kapex - it's the only saw that will last you your whole life.
It also holds its value nicely.. if you buy a bosch you'll be lucky to sell it for $200-300 few years down the road but the Kapex will hold its value over time.
There's nothing on the market that beats this set up in terms of precision, portability and dust extraction. Kapex with UG stand sets up in less than a minute. Loading and unloading it into your truck is a simple without breaking a sweat. I used my Kapex daily for rough and finish framing... i even use it to cut aluminum extrusions. Some rough carpenters occasionally freak out when i bring it on site... they say i shouldn't use a quality saw like that for rough framing, that i might kill the motor, etc. So far i had no issues and if something hapens, i know i can easily order replacement parts.
Go and get a Kapex - it's the only saw that will last you your whole life.
It also holds its value nicely.. if you buy a bosch you'll be lucky to sell it for $200-300 few years down the road but the Kapex will hold its value over time.
All this talk about circuit breakers ---
Here in the USA circuit breakers are labeled for maximum amperage draw but that is not the same thing as continuos draw. Breakers are designed to hold at 80% of the printed rating for continuous usage and that is what the National Electrical Code states. They trip on overcurrent, have some delay in tripping depending upon the amount of over-current and normally are heat affected. A 15 amp breaker may hold 20 amps for a short period of time - like a tool start up but is rated only for 12 amps continuous. Not guaranteed for that though.
Breakers are to protect wiring for fire prevention - NOT to protect what is plugged in. Circuits are designed with the breaker matching the wire gauge being installed. use 12 gauge for 20 amp, 14 gauge for 15 amp. Breakers do NOT throttle voltage. If you are experiencing low voltage during use then you have a problem with wire size, wire length, excess current draw for wire gauge on possibly oversized breaker.
As to the miter saw on a CT, yea it is starting to really max out the design of the electrical components on the vac. Personally I don't plug my 12" miter saw into the vac nor my OF2200 but all other tools do use the vac as the power source. I have had my vac apart and the wiring does not impress so my high current tools are direct plugged into a wall outlet or oversized extension cable. I also use 10 gauge extension cables for outdoor use to reduce chance of voltage drop as that can easily do serious motor damage.
Here in the USA circuit breakers are labeled for maximum amperage draw but that is not the same thing as continuos draw. Breakers are designed to hold at 80% of the printed rating for continuous usage and that is what the National Electrical Code states. They trip on overcurrent, have some delay in tripping depending upon the amount of over-current and normally are heat affected. A 15 amp breaker may hold 20 amps for a short period of time - like a tool start up but is rated only for 12 amps continuous. Not guaranteed for that though.
Breakers are to protect wiring for fire prevention - NOT to protect what is plugged in. Circuits are designed with the breaker matching the wire gauge being installed. use 12 gauge for 20 amp, 14 gauge for 15 amp. Breakers do NOT throttle voltage. If you are experiencing low voltage during use then you have a problem with wire size, wire length, excess current draw for wire gauge on possibly oversized breaker.
As to the miter saw on a CT, yea it is starting to really max out the design of the electrical components on the vac. Personally I don't plug my 12" miter saw into the vac nor my OF2200 but all other tools do use the vac as the power source. I have had my vac apart and the wiring does not impress so my high current tools are direct plugged into a wall outlet or oversized extension cable. I also use 10 gauge extension cables for outdoor use to reduce chance of voltage drop as that can easily do serious motor damage.
PeterK said:
Many thanks Peter.
I remember from my electrical engineering studies that voltage drop can damage motors and poor wiring may cause this. It is best not to take short cuts with wiring and check what has been installed by the previous owner - just in case.
Peter
$200-$300 return on a used saw that only cost $500-$600 to being with is reasonable for both parties. Festools do seem to hold their value better than other makes in the U.S. Some guys have sold theirs for more than they paid for them. Used. The number of buyers playing arbitrage with their tool purchase has got to be really slim. Still , a tool that holds its value is more attractive to many.
But, Kapex as a "lifetime" tool is a dicey bet. It might last that long, but the odds are not better than say a Panasonic drill. And what if you're the lucky fella that gets one with a motor that decides to smoke during year two, and again at year five ? How much is that saw going to be worth on the used market ?
What I'm saying is FT is not your only option for quality tools that can last a lifetime of normal use. Every mitersaw I've ever bought in the last thirty years is still operational.
But, Kapex as a "lifetime" tool is a dicey bet. It might last that long, but the odds are not better than say a Panasonic drill. And what if you're the lucky fella that gets one with a motor that decides to smoke during year two, and again at year five ? How much is that saw going to be worth on the used market ?
What I'm saying is FT is not your only option for quality tools that can last a lifetime of normal use. Every mitersaw I've ever bought in the last thirty years is still operational.
Do you think that there is a chance that for those people who have had more than one Kapex go smokey that it might be something other than the Kapex that is the cause - perhaps the power supply?
Peter
Peter
I think we need to determine in a poll or something what countries are experiencing the problems. I don't know about most of Europe but England is different than the USA. Here we are 120VAC 60 Hertz as the common plug in power tool source. England I think is 240volt at 50 Hertz? There is a real benefit to the higher voltage as can downsize much of the electrical system as amperage drops in half so less heat for less current.
As to miter saw selection, there are multiple ways to go. I am in my 60s and my 10" Makita was getting too heavy to move around with my bad back. I sold it and now use a 12" Dewalt chop saw for large timber type cuts and a Makita 7 1/2" corded slider that I love. Not sure if they still sell that as a quick search shows an 8 1/2" model now. The little Makita will handle any 2by lumber up to 12". I get smooth accurate cuts with it as the blade has no flex. The Dewalt chop saw gets the rough use post type cutting or quick cuts on dirty lumber. Works great for me at an acceptable cost. The little Makita is awesome in the house for trim work and the dust collection with the smaller blade works very well. No complaints at all.
As to miter saw selection, there are multiple ways to go. I am in my 60s and my 10" Makita was getting too heavy to move around with my bad back. I sold it and now use a 12" Dewalt chop saw for large timber type cuts and a Makita 7 1/2" corded slider that I love. Not sure if they still sell that as a quick search shows an 8 1/2" model now. The little Makita will handle any 2by lumber up to 12". I get smooth accurate cuts with it as the blade has no flex. The Dewalt chop saw gets the rough use post type cutting or quick cuts on dirty lumber. Works great for me at an acceptable cost. The little Makita is awesome in the house for trim work and the dust collection with the smaller blade works very well. No complaints at all.
USA better redesign its entire electrical grid because the kapex is perfect and the electrical grid is flawed. Why are other miter saws not failing. Many report using Makita's and Dewalt's and hitachis for 10 years with no burnout and than puff the kapex blows out.
I don't really question Festool's engineering but these reports make me wonder if they just did some type of quick easy conversion of the Kapex for the US power.
Still goes back to - are all the failures happening in the US? If not then they have a real design problem or a motor manufacturing problem. That would require Festool to want to examine the problem saws and determine the issue so it can be prevented. Really hard for me to understand Festool not taking this seriously based upon my experiences over many years with them. What concerns me with what I have read in this thread is the report of a worker getting an electrical shock and if repeated by others would easily result in a Federal mandated recall as has happened to other tool companies.
The Kapex has been available for quite a few years and this problem is just now becoming known to me - maybe I just haven't been paying attention as I don't own one.
Still goes back to - are all the failures happening in the US? If not then they have a real design problem or a motor manufacturing problem. That would require Festool to want to examine the problem saws and determine the issue so it can be prevented. Really hard for me to understand Festool not taking this seriously based upon my experiences over many years with them. What concerns me with what I have read in this thread is the report of a worker getting an electrical shock and if repeated by others would easily result in a Federal mandated recall as has happened to other tool companies.
The Kapex has been available for quite a few years and this problem is just now becoming known to me - maybe I just haven't been paying attention as I don't own one.
Cheese
Member
Well FWIW...many, many years ago when I first started to set up a shop in the basement, and after too many trips of the circuit breakers, I started by pulling and running 2 separate 20 amp circuits through the shop area.
Separate Romex circuits run next to each other but not stapled on top of each other and each running into its own conduit downfeed to a duplex outlet.
The duplex outlet boxes are all placed next to each other and are color coded either black or white. That way at each power delivery point around the room, I can make an immediate decision as to which circuit I tap power off of.
Above the Kapex is an industrial style "hanging quad box" which contains a white duplex and a black duplex receptacle. The Kapex and the Jet belt/disc sander are plugged into the white outlet while the Fein vac and Jet dust collector are plugged into the black receptacle.
This put an end to the tripped breaker issues.
Separate Romex circuits run next to each other but not stapled on top of each other and each running into its own conduit downfeed to a duplex outlet.
The duplex outlet boxes are all placed next to each other and are color coded either black or white. That way at each power delivery point around the room, I can make an immediate decision as to which circuit I tap power off of.
Above the Kapex is an industrial style "hanging quad box" which contains a white duplex and a black duplex receptacle. The Kapex and the Jet belt/disc sander are plugged into the white outlet while the Fein vac and Jet dust collector are plugged into the black receptacle.
This put an end to the tripped breaker issues.
Peter - I have considered that and factor it in to my position regarding this issue. Especially for you guys in the UK that run off of site transformers. Every single one I've seen (which isn't many - but more than most Americans have ) are all undersized for what's being run off of them.
The same thing happens on American jobsites to a large extent. We don't have xformers, but the use of a "temporary pole". This usually consists of small disconnect box that generally has two 20a breakers in it that energize two receptacles below. The workers then plug in their extension cords and run them to the house where they then plug in 3 or 4 way splitters or powers strips. Then their tools plug in to those . Typically it's 50 ft. extensions, and contractors being a cheap lot generally only use 14ga extensions. The smart or rich guys use 12ga extension. What all of them SHOULD be using is a 10ga extension. You EE's can figure out the voltage drop for 50 -100 feet of extension plus the splitters plus two guys using the circuit at the same time.
We don't work on jobs that don't provide us with our own dedicated 20a receptacle in the room(s) we're working in. And we still carry a 50' 10 gauge extension cord.
Have you considered that FT might actually have missed the mark with this one ? I know it's difficult.
It's probably just a one off anomaly because we've yet to hear of significant ATF/TS saw motor failures and they have been selling that in the U.S. for near on two decades. The number of those out there and the collective hours they've been used is at least double and probably ten times Kapxs sales and use. Plus they're run on the same circuits and power grid as the Kapex.
The same thing happens on American jobsites to a large extent. We don't have xformers, but the use of a "temporary pole". This usually consists of small disconnect box that generally has two 20a breakers in it that energize two receptacles below. The workers then plug in their extension cords and run them to the house where they then plug in 3 or 4 way splitters or powers strips. Then their tools plug in to those . Typically it's 50 ft. extensions, and contractors being a cheap lot generally only use 14ga extensions. The smart or rich guys use 12ga extension. What all of them SHOULD be using is a 10ga extension. You EE's can figure out the voltage drop for 50 -100 feet of extension plus the splitters plus two guys using the circuit at the same time.
We don't work on jobs that don't provide us with our own dedicated 20a receptacle in the room(s) we're working in. And we still carry a 50' 10 gauge extension cord.
Have you considered that FT might actually have missed the mark with this one ? I know it's difficult.
It's probably just a one off anomaly because we've yet to hear of significant ATF/TS saw motor failures and they have been selling that in the U.S. for near on two decades. The number of those out there and the collective hours they've been used is at least double and probably ten times Kapxs sales and use. Plus they're run on the same circuits and power grid as the Kapex.
Vladiator said:
Getting $200-$300 for a $700 saw a few years down the road is not a problem, in fact it is a good deal. The Kapex might hold more value, but that is because it costs twice as much. I am lucky I bought my Kapex when it was first released and have never had a problem. I would never buy another because it is not worth twice as much as the Dewalt or Bosch and is a less capable saw.
The concept of buying a Dewalt saw for $700 and selling it for $200 5 years later is a good deal as you have in effect rented it for $100 a year and you will have a brand new saw that is at least as capable and probably more saw and back in warranty.
oneeyesquare
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I flip saws frequently. Typically, I get half the purchase price off of Craiglist with little resistance. Granted, my saws are in excellent condition and don't look like they've rolled around in the back of a pickup since day one. I picked up a DeWalt 780 last year to fill in for the Kapex whilst being serviced for broken bevel lock. Sold it 3 weeks later for $600. Out my tax money and the gas to go buy it in that instance.
Bosch are nice except on bevel. Tad to much flex for me. Still could get decent compound miters, but took a little more attention. Kapex is rock solid on bevel. That's why I still prefer it despite the outrageous price tag....
Bosch are nice except on bevel. Tad to much flex for me. Still could get decent compound miters, but took a little more attention. Kapex is rock solid on bevel. That's why I still prefer it despite the outrageous price tag....
Job and Knock
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This topic got raised tonight in the pub (where else?) so I'm belatedly adding to this thread....
No. I know of two failures in the UK - both site 110 volt units, though.PeterK said:
I can but agree with you. On a job last year I managed to get the company to supply me with my own 6.5kVA transformer which was specifically to run a Kapex and a Metabo industrial vacuum. There were arguments with every idiot on the site who would insist on plugging their piece of electric string into my transformer. In the end I resorted to making a box and locking the thing inside it to stop that behaviour. The average 3kVA site transformer is just too small for an extractor AND a saw and comments made by others about the cheap thin extension cables (and too many of them) used by everyone are also spot on - I started out with 2.5mm (nor the standard 1.5mm) and I'm on 4mm cables across the board with a few 6mm ones (and more to come as I replace cables). What I can say is that the "power thieves", especially the guys running large grinders or welders, have given me issues in the past when running other non-Festool kit, it's maybe just that Festool stuff is a tad more sensitive (talking Kapex, TS55, OF2200e here)antss said:
Cheese
Member
Just noticed that a reconditioned Kapex was offered on the Festool recon website. The recon price is $958 vs $1475, thats 35% off. [eek]
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