Down with the old & Up with the new

[nclemmons]

Very nice shop and appreciate you documenting the progress.  When I was in Chicago, I had my basement shop flood twice - both due to heavy rainfall and sump pump failures.  No fun recovering from 18” of water.  So plan ahead!

Neil

 

[Cheese]

Well [member=71478]FestitaMakool[/member] , [member=3192]rvieceli[/member] , [member=167]neilc[/member] ...this is quite a home coming...this group hasn't been together in a while. [big grin]

They're dropping lumber on Friday and expect to have it framed up within a week. I asked about the trusses and they said they'd be set by hand...as in hand lifting the items into place.  [eek]  These beasts are 300# each...

I asked if they were going to use Lull lifts and they said that using that equipment within the city presented problems with power lines in the area so it was going to be all done by manual labor. Let's see how this plays out... [big grin]  I also asked how many people would be needed to lift the trusses and they estimated 3 people per truss...so each worker will have to dead lift 100# each. This activity has suddenly become a sport for the younger athletes.  [big grin]

I've erected trusses on a 50' barn in Wisconsin with a Lull lift and it was easy peasy. One person to operate the Lull and 2 people to spot the trusses.

This adventure sounds more interesting but I just hope there are no fatalities.  [eek]   Construction within an urban area is always cause for concern.

Just to add to the excitement, it's now snowing...and I was going to install 2" of foam around the footings tomorrow.  [sad]

 

[FestitaMakool]

It’s been a while for me at least!  [big grin]
So nice to find a practical project when kind of re-entering and finding we’re close to encounter much the same too Cheese  [smile].

Well those trusses seems to be wise to let over to the guys who does it with experience.. I hope they bring on techniques and security harnesses..
I’ve battled snow when laying a roof before, and I’m in a two day pause to let a snow storm pass here right now, even that’s just the walls.. things get awfully slippery, not to mention as you experience, your tasks buried in snow [huh].

Is it right that you live in an area that may flood? If so, the insulation (styrofoam) must create a lot of buoyancy?
It’s debated here whether insulation is or is not needed for heating. I did not in my former slab (garage), and not now either, due to an advise of utilising the “heat” coming from the ground. Yes, it did keep my floor above freezing point in my old space. It became very cold before I experienced the floor just below freezing point - that was with no heating and a well insulated building overall, especially the roof. What I was told, it was better to non insulate if I where to heat up only now and then - if I’d insulated the floor, I should keep some heat on the whole winter. To my experience it worked very well heating up when needed. Still, the important factor is keep draft away, and insulate where the heat inevitably will go - up.

 

[Michael Kellough]

[member=44099]Cheese[/member]  those 300# trusses are going to span 28 ft? How tall are the trussss?

 

[Cheese]

[member=44099]Cheese[/member]  those 300# trusses are going to span 28 ft? How tall are the trussss?

Yup, a 28 foot span and it's difficult to tell but I believe they're about 12' to 13' tall. The lower chord appears to be a 2x8 or 2x10.

 

[Cheese]

Quickie question, this is a floating slab with a thickened edge? You don't need to go down below the frost line?

Ya Ron it does have a thickened edge, to the tune of about 12". There are so many differences of opinion when it comes to hydronic heated slabs that it makes my head twirl.

It starts with 2" of foam under the Pex, then 4" of foam under the Pex, then foam under the footings, then foam under the class 5 which supports the entire slab and footings, foam alongside the footings, foam under the footings moving out to 3' in the yard and then alongside the footings...and then [member=71478]FestitaMakool[/member] recently weighed in by saying the whole foam thing was still in the debating stage in Europe.  [eek]

I just don't know and I'm unwilling to turn this project into a 6 year term paper...so I just decided to do what made sense to me and my pocket book.
The basic principles I adhered to were:
1. Some insulation is better than NO insulation.
2. More insulation is better than less insulation.
3. Technology continues to evolve so it's better to go with what you know rather than to stall out and let analysis paralysis take over.
4. And most importantly...My wife just wants a garage to park her car in and that takes precedence over all of the other issues.  [big grin]

It's my understanding that you're not trying to eliminate heat loss but just trying to mitigate heat loss. The 2" foam runs about $40 per 4'x8' sheet. So the 4" of foam under the Pex tubing was about $1500. Expand that to encompass the entire 26' x 28' slab and the cost of 4" foam sheets would be an additional $1800. Bring that insulation to a depth of 4' which is a common number for the frost line in Minnesota and the price tag elevates to $22K. A lot of natural gas can be purchased for that kind of money.  [big grin]

It just occurred to me that 15 years from now someone will be reading this thread (because NOTHING is ever eliminated from the web) and they will think, how stupid was this guy...what was he thinking?  But that's a basic tenet of life.

 

[thudchkr]

Well [member=71478]FestitaMakool[/member] , [member=3192]rvieceli[/member] , [member=167]neilc[/member] ...this is quite a home coming...this group hasn't been together in a while. [big grin]

They're dropping lumber on Friday and expect to have it framed up within a week. I asked about the trusses and they said they'd be set by hand...as in hand lifting the items into place.  [eek]  These beasts are 300# each...

I asked if they were going to use Lull lifts and they said that using that equipment within the city presented problems with power lines in the area so it was going to be all done by manual labor. Let's see how this plays out... [big grin]  I also asked how many people would be needed to lift the trusses and they estimated 3 people per truss...so each worker will have to dead lift 100# each. This activity has suddenly become a sport for the younger athletes.  [big grin]

I've erected trusses on a 50' barn in Wisconsin with a Lull lift and it was easy peasy. One person to operate the Lull and 2 people to spot the trusses.

When I did trusses manually, (24’ span), on my previous garage, there were only two of us. We put one end at a time on the walls and left the peak of the truss hanging down. We then just rotated the the peak to the top with a long 2x4 where we had the truss brace/spacers ready to catch them. Blocks along the side walls ensured the trusses didn’t slide out of position while they were being rotated into place. Hardest part was the rotation, but with two of us, not too tough on those 24’ roof trusses. 

 

[Cheese]

I’m pretty much in the same boat, finally started the restoration of my outhouse/shed.
It’s been me mostly alone, digging out soil floor [eek] jacking half the building up into former heights with hydraulic bottle jacks (I did dig out the bottom sills with a spade.. they once where 6x6” beams.. [huh])

Now after filling in 6 tonnes of gravel inside and outside, having poured 3 cubic meter of concrete delivered by a cement truck with hydraulic gutter all laid within 1 1/2 hour I leveled myself it’s a 322 sq feet (30sq m) of slab now.

It’s a fresh start. 10sq m of that is an extension. I’ve built the walls for the extension in modules (framing) and have now started to mount the wall modules to the concrete blocks. All the hard dirty work is now (nearly..) forgotten as it’s working with wood and as a framer (picky one  [big grin] but I’m the only boss though!)

Looking forward to your progress Cheese, in before Christmas too you also?  [wink]

Well Festita...I'm pretty much in awe of what you're able to accomplish. I understand the bottle jacks but it's the "digging with the spade" thing that's over the top for me. Do they offer Dingos® for rent in Europe? That's what I used for installing a New York Bluestone patio about 18 years ago.

They're small walk-behind machines that are narrow enough to fit through a garden gate, they're tracked vehicles so they are light on their feet, and do an incredible amount of work on an incredibly small amount of fuel. I think the largest model is capable of hauling over a 1/2 ton of material. That would have made that 6 tonnes of gravel easy peasy.  [smile]

I rented it for about 4 days and the fee was pretty reasonable considering the amount of work it can accomplish. I removed the top soil, hauled & spread the class 5, hauled & spread the sand and staged the pallets of bluestone while using about 4 gallons of gas.

Even though I was 20 years younger it was still a back saver and a time saver. Just something to consider for your next project.  [big grin]

[attachimg=1]

 

[Michael Kellough]

[member=44099]Cheese[/member] so there are two layers of 2” foam on top of gravel (or dirt?) then how thick is the concrete on top of the Pex/foam?

 

[Cheese]

[member=44099]Cheese[/member] so there are two layers of 2” foam on top of gravel (or dirt?) then how thick is the concrete on top of the Pex/foam?

Michael, it's 4" of foam on top of the gravel/class 5 base and then 1/2" tied rebar and 4" of concrete over the Pex.

 

[FestitaMakool]

I’m pretty much in the same boat, finally started the restoration of my outhouse/shed.
It’s been me mostly alone, digging out soil floor [eek] jacking half the building up into former heights with hydraulic bottle jacks (I did dig out the bottom sills with a spade.. they once where 6x6” beams.. [huh])

Now after filling in 6 tonnes of gravel inside and outside, having poured 3 cubic meter of concrete delivered by a cement truck with hydraulic gutter all laid within 1 1/2 hour I leveled myself it’s a 322 sq feet (30sq m) of slab now.

It’s a fresh start. 10sq m of that is an extension. I’ve built the walls for the extension in modules (framing) and have now started to mount the wall modules to the concrete blocks. All the hard dirty work is now (nearly..) forgotten as it’s working with wood and as a framer (picky one  [big grin] but I’m the only boss though!)

Looking forward to your progress Cheese, in before Christmas too you also?  [wink]

Well Festita...I'm pretty much in awe of what you're able to accomplish. I understand the bottle jacks but it's the "digging with the spade" thing that's over the top for me. Do they offer Dingos® for rent in Europe? That's what I used for installing a New York Bluestone patio about 18 years ago.

They're small walk-behind machines that are narrow enough to fit through a garden gate, they're tracked vehicles so they are light on their feet, and do an incredible amount of work on an incredibly small amount of fuel. I think the largest model is capable of hauling over a 1/2 ton of material. That would have made that 6 tonnes of gravel easy peasy.  [smile]

I rented it for about 4 days and the fee was pretty reasonable considering the amount of work it can accomplish. I removed the top soil, hauled & spread the class 5, hauled & spread the sand and staged the pallets of bluestone while using about 4 gallons of gas.

Even though I was 20 years younger it was still a back saver and a time saver. Just something to consider for your next project.  [big grin]

[attachimg=1]

Well Cheese, you’re right.. I did take it as an intensive exercise over many days, indeed weeks - I’m much stronger now  [big grin] At least I’m building useful muscles! To be honest, if you know your limits, and know when to stop - this kind of work albeit very boooring is very good training.

I did look at the rental opportunities - but where the digging that had to be done was inside, measuring 4m x 2,75m (157” x 108”) with a partition wall I needed for struktural strength as for now in the way.. I needed 8-12” of gravel so that what I dig out of 100 sq foot with soil first.

But yes, I did the majority of gravel moving with the wheel barrow in the left corner in the photo:
(Where my temporary work table is, is the new extension now) And yes, the HKC is a beloved companion again.

View attachment 1

 

[FestitaMakool]

I think your priority check list is very valid [smile] [wink]
The way of foam under the concrete is the default here as well.. advise was given me from experienced builders - and bear in mind: Both slabs I’ve done had a healthy depth of compressed gravel as a base. This does also insulate and take up small movements in the ground. (I’m glad to be done with the wacker for a while…)

I’m going to follow the temperature on the surface of the slab as I progress. Below are readings after a slight snow storm with hefty winds during a couple of days, below zero. The highest readings are inside (darker photos) and the lower readings are outside on the same slab but exposed to weather (still inside it’s open gaps in the walls and draft with no heating at all)

[attachimg=1] [attachimg=2]

[attachimg=3] [attachimg=4]

 

[Cheese]

So, I spent the day filling the cores of the cement blocks with foam. After laying down the 2 layers of 2" foam over the class 5 to receive the Pex tubing, I had a lot of extra large foam off-cuts and decided to put them to work. I cut HUNDREDS of 3" x 4-1/2" x 2" thick foam blocks that would fit into the block cores. The band saw was perfect to use for ripping these to the proper width while also cutting them for the proper length. Considering the number I cut, probably close to 400, it went extremely fast. Anyone who says they don't need a band saw is just whistling past the graveyard.  [smile]

I put 3 pieces of foam in each core, spray foamed around each side, let it cure and then, spray foamed to fill any remaining cavity on the top. Let it cure and 2 days later I flushed each cavity up with a SAWZALL...what...did you say SAWZALL...remember that last Sawzall thread...and remember how many folks said they didn't need a Sawzall? Maybe this will be another introduction as to how handy this tool really is.

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[attachimg=6]

 

[Cheese]

[member=44099]Cheese[/member]  those 300# trusses are going to span 28 ft? How tall are the trussss?

The trusses were delivered today [member=297]Michael Kellough[/member] and I measured them at 12'-6" in height. As an aside, they were dropped in the alley because the truck was unable to deliver them to the job site and it took 4 pretty beefy guys to carry them to the job site.

 

[rmwarren]

So, I spent the day filling the cores of the cement blocks with foam. After laying down the 2 layers of 2" foam over the class 5 to receive the Pex tubing, I had a lot of extra large foam off-cuts and decided to put them to work. I cut HUNDREDS of 3" x 4-1/2" x 2" thick foam blocks that would fit into the block cores. The band saw was perfect to use for ripping these to the proper width while also cutting them for the proper length. Considering the number I cut, probably close to 400, it went extremely fast. Anyone who says they don't need a band saw is just whistling past the graveyard.  [smile]

I put 3 pieces of foam in each core, spray foamed around each side, let it cure and then, spray foamed to fill any remaining cavity on the top. Let it cure and 2 days later I flushed each cavity up with a SAWZALL...what...did you say SAWZALL...remember that last Sawzall thread...and remember how many folks said they didn't need a Sawzall? Maybe this will be another introduction as to how handy this tool really is.

[attachimg=1]

[attachimg=2]

[attachimg=3]

[attachimg=4]

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[attachimg=6]

Hmmnnnn...

What I learned from my dad and his buddy Jim, 50+ years ago, was the proper filler for cement blocks was empty Coors cans...

Too much new fangled tech to absorb quickly.

RMW

 

[Cheese]

Hmmnnnn...

What I learned from my dad and his buddy Jim, 50+ years ago, was the proper filler for cement blocks was empty Coors cans...

Too much new fangled tech to absorb quickly.

I don't think you're wrong Richard as around 50 years ago I was making regular bi-monthly runs to Golden Colorado to purchase multiple cases of Coors because they didn't distribute in the Minnesota/Wisconsin area.  We are a very thirsty Midwestern lot... [smile]

 

[rvieceli]

Cheese did you go with an attic truss or just a regular one?

Ron

 

[Tom the Remodeler]

Cheese,

Looks like you're making great progress! I'm curious what you have planned for your insulated wall assembly?

I'm in the Minnetonka area with an existing 28' x 26' space. Original walls were 2x4, I've furred them out to 2x6 depth, currently working on installing R-21 mineral wool batts in the walls, and am working with the local code enforcement official on identifying an appropriate peel-and-stick membrane to use in conjunction with TimberBoard exterior insulation. Really excited to finally see these exterior wood fiber insulation products find their way to North America, looking forward to incorporating them into my remodeling process.

You had mentioned metal working tools, are those just high amperage single phase machines or will you be installing a phase converter for three phase?

 

[Cheese]

Cheese did you go with an attic truss or just a regular one?

Attic trusses Ron, living in the city really only allows you to expand vertically & not horizontally.  [smile]

 

[Cheese]

Here was yesterday's excitement.

This is always a thing of beauty, some of these truck drivers are just plain gifted folks, being able to shoe horn an oversized load into a small urban space. Look at the wheelbase length of the trailer, remember that as we'll come back to it.

[attachimg=1]

He managed to squeeze the load in-between the hedge and the telephone pole. The hedges were just barely being brushed while he had 4" of clearance to the pole.

[attachimg=2]

[attachimg=3]

This is about the end of the line because the alley now takes a 90º turn and he's already getting into the evergreens.

[attachimg=4]

He even tried shortening up the wheelbase of the trailer to easier navigate the bend in the alley. Compare this wheelbase with the first photo.

[attachimg=5]

This is as far as he could go...dump the trusses here and hand carry them to the job-site.

[attachimg=6]